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Old January 1, 2017, 04:46 PM   #26
tahoe2
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I have one of those Marlin's in 375 Win, and yes Savage ran it in the 99, Ruger in the #1, and Winchester 94, Big Bore version.
The Big Bore also ran the 307 & 356 Winchester's, two cartridges that should have flourished.
The 280 Remington was released to long after the 270 Winchester established itself, the 280 is a superb killer with heavy bullets
and suffered from low pressure due to the release in the 740 Remington rifle. I would love a 338 Federal but have too many calibers already.
I'm still using a 7.65x53, 7x57, and 8x57, they have all served me well. All of these over 100 years old, and the good ol "06" as well, is tough to beat !!

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Old January 1, 2017, 05:10 PM   #27
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I agree that .307 Win isn't a complete dead-end, and back my opinion with the fact that I'm currently building a Marlin/Glenfield 336 in .307 Win (Glenfield 30 getting a rechambered 336 .30-30 barrel).
And it's always nice to have additional options.

But... at least in the U.S., I don't think it really gave enough over .30 WCF and .300 Savage to entice people into dropping their current rifles in favor of the new, or even just get people to think, "I need one!"

I think a lot of people saw .307 Win as a gimmick to sell more rifles.



.338 Federal, while a decent cartridge that's still somewhat holding its own, I think fell into a different trap:
It was aimed at a bit of a niche market to begin with. Too many other options already established on the market. Not enough rifles chambered for it, at release. It came at a time when we were seeing a new cartridge every other day. And then it got absolutely pounded into submission by lack of ammunition during the Barackalypse.
It simply got lost is the chaos.
That being said... I have several friends that own, or want to own one; and I have two family members either planning or actively working on .338 Federal builds (one AR, one bolt action).
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Old January 1, 2017, 05:39 PM   #28
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The 280's history is a sad one if you can imagine the alternate outcome if Remington would have had the 700 available when it came out. Kinda like Winchester not having a proper SA M70 for the 284. As a comparison, the 7mm-08 has had a much more successful go of it due to the amount of short action bolt guns out there. Remington did do their best to trip it up at the start by only offering it in the 788 carbine and 700 BDL Varmint Special. I wonder how much better it would have taken off in a short action sporter 700 BDL or 700 ADL?
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Old January 1, 2017, 06:53 PM   #29
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Remington did make model 721/725 chamber for the 280. Browning has made bolt action 284.

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx...s=browning+284

Mel Forbes is still making 284 bolt action with magazine length 3.00"

Their not factory but lot of 284's being build for target to hunting rifles from short to long action.

Good one will survive maybe not as factory.
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Old January 1, 2017, 09:21 PM   #30
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Some great cartridges that are rare these days:

220 Swift
6mm Rem
257 Roberts
264 Win Mag
284 Win
280 Rem
358 Win
375 Weatherby

So many repetitive and useless new ones...
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Old January 1, 2017, 10:33 PM   #31
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Yes but the 721/725 wasn't the hit like the 700. As a teenager in the 70's it seemed the 700 Remington was the gun to have. Pretty much Top Dog until recent quality issues. Didn't Remington re-name the 280 the 7mm Express with the introduction of the 700?
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Old January 2, 2017, 01:05 AM   #32
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The 721/722 were a big hit indeed. Cheaper than Winchester M70, and accurate as all get-out, but really plain-Jane rifles. The 725 was a different beast, just the Model 30 renamed, and it was only made for a few years. The 721/722 were so popular that they made Winchester design their new Model 70 with fewer machining steps (with awful results). Remington introduced the 700 in 1962, and it was an immediate hit and finalized the need for Winchester to revamp the Model 70.

The 280 was initially introduced in 1957 as a standardized 7mm-'06 (slightly longer body to keep it from being fired in a 270 Winchester chamber) in the Remington 740 auto-loader and 760 pump gun (later in the 721). It was accordingly loaded to lower pressures to be nice to the 740 action. In 1979, it was renamed 7mm Express in an attempt to "re-launch" the cartridge, now loaded to slightly higher pressures. 2 years later, it was once again the 280 Remington.
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Old January 2, 2017, 04:18 AM   #33
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Allegedly Marlin is developing a .338 Marlin Express. I cannot see why. The .338 Federal is out there and barely catching on. Another lame attempt to make a lever action shoot like a bolt action. People are begging for handgun cartridge lever guns and Marlin just ignores them.
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Old January 2, 2017, 04:36 AM   #34
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Gunplummer, don't waste time worrying about Marlin. Remington can't build a lever gun to save the brand name, and, unless something changes, Marlin will be sold off or relegated to the annuls of history sooner than later.

Until Remington can build a decent Marlin lever gun, there's nothing there worth thinking about buying, anyway.

Marlin firearms, at this point in time, could fall right into the theme of this thread, with obsolescence.

They were good. They were popular.
Now they're crap.

...Because of cost-cutting measures and lack of quality control.


I'm taking your .338 ME comment as tongue-in-cheek, since the cartridge has been around for eight (nine?) years now.
But, again, it will only truly fail because Remington won't support it like Marlin did before the buyout.
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Old January 2, 2017, 05:27 AM   #35
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The .338 Marlin Express was news to me. I really do not buy new guns because they just suck. If I want a lever gun, I go to one of my 99 Savages. I have a .358 Featherweight. I was thinking about .338 Federal. I picked up a .308 at a reasonable price online recently, but it turned out to be an early Featherweight in pretty decent shape. I think I will let it alone and look for an economy model to re-barrel.
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Old January 2, 2017, 12:40 PM   #36
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jmr 40 the 7mm WSM was used by the army rifle team and set a new record at 1000 yds. I would have thought that would save it being it is a good round
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Old January 2, 2017, 12:52 PM   #37
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So many that were designed to "improve" the 5.56mm will also die slow deaths but won't be missed by most of us.

450 Bushmaster or 458 SOCOM might have a chance but the rest are useless IMO. 6.5 Grendel? 6.8 SPC? 7mm Valkyrie? All are neat but useless.


I don't see the 450 Bushmaster or the 458 surviving. Limited in range and the price of ammo is working against them. But the 6.8 SPC has large following especially for hunting with an AR. The 6.5 Grendel also has a large following. People are migrating to one of those cartridges when they realize their .300 Blk isn't all it marketed to be and is not a good choice for hunting.

The 7mm Valkyrie, isn't even a cartridge at this point. Just a wildcat. But when it comes to power, both the 7mm Valkyrie and 270AR are probably the most powerful AR15 calibers available. For hunting, both are hard to beat.
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Old January 2, 2017, 06:11 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed308
The 7mm Valkyrie, isn't even a cartridge at this point. Just a wildcat. But when it comes to power, both the 7mm Valkyrie and 270AR are probably the most powerful AR15 calibers available. For hunting, both are hard to beat.
7mm Valkyrie, with the currently advertised numbers, is over-pressure and can't keep up that pace if it's going to succeed in an AR-15.
If it is to be SAAMI-approved and mass-marketed, the pressure level (and performance level) will need to be reduced.
The repeated statements about cases being toast after 2-3 firings should be the first hint to interested parties.
Even a .458 SOCOM loaded to 50k psi (way, WAY over the 35k psi max) won't kill brass that quickly.


Something to keep an eye on, designed from the ground up to work with the pressure limitations and timing of a standard AR-15, and still achieve similar velocity figures with even heavier bullets, is .375 SOCOM. Everyone that touches it thinks it's one of the best cartridges they've ever worked with.
It still faces the challenge of SAAMI approval. But if that happens and it's marketed correctly, the economy of scale should bring the cost of ammunition down for the weekend warriors that don't reload.
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Old January 2, 2017, 08:48 PM   #39
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Franken Mauser as an owner and shooter of the 7mm Valkyrie I sure would like to know where you are seeing reports of cases only lasting 2-3 firings. I know 15-20 of the guys that have them also and I have heard ZERO reports of short brass life when using the Lapua 6.5x47 brass (brass the round was designed to use)

My brass has 6 firings on it already and I have no signs of the brass failing anytime soon. Also about the 62000 pressure limit the reason that it is possible is because of the proprietary bolt and barrel extension that allow those pressures. With that supplier no longer able to provide those to us. Olympic Arms is now supplying the bolt and barrel extensions. It the same ones they use for their WSSM uppers so pressure won't be an issue.
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Old January 3, 2017, 11:03 AM   #40
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In a sense the M1903's original chambering, the .30-03 was a failed cartridge as it caused erosion of the bore of the service rifles, and it was not a long range performer. It was not much of an improvement at all over the .30-40 Krag. It was dropped for the -06.
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Old January 3, 2017, 12:22 PM   #41
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Quote:
In a sense the M1903's original chambering, the .30-03 was a failed cartridge as it caused erosion of the bore of the service rifles, and it was not a long range performer. It was not much of an improvement at all over the .30-40 Krag. It was dropped for the -06.
Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.

Powder charge, bullet profile and weight, and neck length are the only real differences between .30-03 and .30-06.
.30-03 was not run at higher pressure than .30-06. It was run at higher pressure than .30-40 Krag. (I believe this common misinterpretation comes from a statement in Hatcher's Notebook.)

The .30-06 variation of the .30-03 cartridge was primarily adopted because of the low velocity and rainbow trajectory of the 220 gr bullet, combined with the fact that all of our powerful enemies (potential or real) were converting to spitzer bullets in their battle rifle cartridges.
The 220 RN was 'old fashioned' and seen as a handicap.
And since the long neck no longer needed to support a long bullet, it was shortened for .30-06.
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Old January 3, 2017, 03:46 PM   #42
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IIRC 8MM Remington Magnum was introduced with much fanfare, though Elmer Keith saw no use for it.
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Old January 3, 2017, 08:01 PM   #43
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Elmer Keith saw no use for anything he did not invent or have a hand in inventing.
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Old January 3, 2017, 10:34 PM   #44
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Quote:
IIRC 8MM Remington Magnum was introduced with much fanfare, though Elmer Keith saw no use for it.
Well, Elmer never shot one, either. The 8mm Rem Mag is an awesome cartridge, flat shooting and powerful, although a bit much for most shooters. It had a reputation as a vicious kicker, which I will agree with, but it was not out of line with some of the rifles currently marketed (338 RUM comes to mind). I like to describe shooting it as being like having your head slammed in a car door. The concussion and recoil would make you woozy after 3 or 4 rounds. Its long case and large powder charge requires a longer barrel than the factory 24" can effectively use. I had a Custom Shop rifle with a 26" barrel, and it would launch the 220 gr Hornadys at 3,100 fps, but the fire ball out the end of the barrel was still fantastic. With better powders like we have now, it could likely hold its own with the other super magnums, but it is as dead as can be.
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Old January 3, 2017, 10:59 PM   #45
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more on 5mm Rimfire Magnum

Jimro mentioned the 5mm RFM earlier and I'll join in. The 5mm Mag should have caught on. Faster than a .22 Mag, and delivering a heavier slug than the .17 HRM, it seems the ideal hot rimfire, if you exclude the big rimfires that recently hit the market. ( I expect that one will die too).

The 5mm's problem was that nobody supported it. When the .17 HRM hit the market, it was hailed as the rage, and most all manufacturers jumped in and produced both rifles and handguns for the little cartridge in short order. Not so the poor 5mm Mag. T/C supposedly made some barrels for their switch barrel pistol, and I heard once that Kimber was going to make their high dollar .22 rifle available in the 5mm, but I never saw any examples of either. The only production rifles were the Rem 581 series, which weren't bad rifles, but not much of a base from which to launch a new cartridge. It'd been nice if Mossberg, Savage, Ruger had joined in as they did later with the .17. I don't know how such things are handled, if Rem was attempting to hog the market with their new cartridge and has some type of rights to it, or if the other makers just weren't interested, but with only two rifles chambered for the number, it was destined to fail nearly from the start.

And attempts to resurrect it with the Aquilla/Taurus connection have failed recently it appears as well. Too bad, I see the 5mm as the ideal hot rimfire.
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Old January 3, 2017, 11:09 PM   #46
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Elmer Keith was sorrry the .25 Stevens Long HV didn't make a postwar comeback instead of the .22 WMR.
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Old January 4, 2017, 05:12 AM   #47
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If I remember correctly, the 5MM was introduced in a weird rifle(New concept at the time)that had a non-rotating bolt handle. That may have has something to do with it. People back in the 60's did not just jump on the bandwagon when something new came around.
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Old January 4, 2017, 06:46 AM   #48
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Winchester's mighty .348 died because the rifle went out of production after a run of approx 20 years. No other rifle was ever chambered for this powerful mid-bore cartridge.

TR
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Old January 4, 2017, 11:26 AM   #49
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Quote:
If I remember correctly, the 5MM was introduced in a weird rifle(New concept at the time)that had a non-rotating bolt handle. That may have has something to do with it. People back in the 60's did not just jump on the bandwagon when something new came around.
I believe it was primarily chambered in the 591 and 592. Both were bolt actions operated in the typical fashion.
(One having a detachable magazine, and the other being tube-fed, I believe.)


When the hints and rumors started coming out about Winchester's new "magnum rimfire" I really hoped it would be .20 caliber. Though not as easy to market, due to lower muzzle velocity, it would have been a much better cartridge than the .17 WSM that we got. And, honestly, I had a little sliver of hope in there for the 5mm RRM guys; that with another .20 caliber rimfire on the market, the original would come back.
.17 caliber was a mistake, in my opinion.

Few people actually want a teeny little .17 caliber bullet at hyper velocity.
Velocity isn't everything ... which, coincidentally, is a continuing theme with quite a few of the cartridges we've discussed here.

To add to the 'velocity killed the cat' list, I'll throw out .375 RUM.
Wasteful. Punishing to most shooters.
Not enough of an improvement to justify the pain.
And ammunition was more expensive than factory Weatherby fodder.
Less than 10 years after its introduction, even Remington stopped chambering the cartridge. And now factory ammo (if you can find it) is more expensive than .338 Lapua.
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Old January 4, 2017, 01:21 PM   #50
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591/592

Thanks Frankenmauser, I had the model numbers wrong in my earlier post regards the 5mm.....I stated 581....which I believe was the .22 lr family.

The only weird thing I can think of regards the 591/2 was that it used multiple locking lugs towards the rear of the bolt, but I think it was the same lock up as used on .22 lr version 581/2. But.....I am not sure of that. The extractor on the 591/2 rifles was a bit cheap, I broke one on my rifle, and after replacement back in the day, stored the rifle with the bolt open from that point forward. The trigger on my sample is terrible, must be 8-9 lbs plus...I never noticed it as a kid, and still shot a bunch of groundhogs with it.
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