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Old December 31, 2016, 02:45 PM   #1
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Failed cartridges

Someone commented on the 6MM thread that it would be interesting to look at cartridges that just failed to make it and why. I also find this interesting. The Remington 7MM Express comes to mind. It should have given the .270 some real competition. I predict the Winchester .325 will die out too. American shooters simply do not like the 8MM. If not for the heavy advertising by gun writers, I have to wonder if the .260 would have survived. It really started out slow. There are plenty of others.
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Old December 31, 2016, 02:53 PM   #2
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30 Remington AR. That should have been a slam dunk in the MSR hunting world. Alas Remington let it fail with horrible marketing and not having brass made available to reloaders, among many other mistakes. It's not the rounds fault at all. If Remington had marketed it half as well as Hornady did the 6.5CM it would've done fairly well.
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Old December 31, 2016, 03:04 PM   #3
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yes the 30 AR the best for the AR 15 and it had a bigger bolt not a hogged out 5.56 bolt. think of how the round could have been necked up and down. Imagine a 6.5 - 7MM and 338
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Old December 31, 2016, 03:12 PM   #4
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7mm Express is alive and well. That name was a short-lived advertising gimmick for what, before and after, was called .280 Remington.


One of my favorite "dead" cartridges that should have made it is .22 CCM (.22 Cooper Centerfire Magnum).
Basically a reloadable straight-wall cartridge with a power level between .22 WMR and .22 Hornet. -Something many small game hunters had been wanting since the equivalent black powder cartridges disappeared 75+ years prior.
It probably never would have been a highly popular cartridge, but it should have had a good following.

Alas, it didn't survive because only Cooper chambered it, it was a bad time in the market, and Fiocchi made just three small runs of ammunition. ...And the brass for two of the lots of that ammunition had a metallurgical problem that caused case heads to literally crack, crumble, or shatter -- if not on the first firing, then very soon after.
So, with factory ammunition having problems and the whole concept of a 'reloadable 22 mag' being wiped out by the brass being unsafe, and Cooper not having the capital to get more ammunition produced with good brass, the cartridge drifted into obscurity and obsolescence.
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Old December 31, 2016, 03:18 PM   #5
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The 7mm Rem Express is still alive and well. It was just renamed and is now called 280. Remington being indecisive on the name hurt the cartridge. You can find rifles marked 7mm/06, 7mm Express, and 280. They all chamber and fire 280 ammo.

The problem with the 325 WSM is that no one makes any decent 8mm bullets. Winchester should have made the 338 WSM instead due to many better bullets available in that caliber. As it is the 300 WSM shoots bullets of the same weight as 325 WSM only about 25-50 fps slower at the muzzle. But the much better BC's of the 300's mean they are faster within 100 yards. There is no reason to choose 325 WSM over 300 WSM.

The 7mm WSM is soon to be dead as is the 325 WSM. Only the 300 and 270 WSM will survive long term. The 7mmWSM is probably the best of the bunch. The 300 WSM was introduced 1st with 270 and 7mm WSM coming out later. Shortly before introduction Winchester discovered that it was possible to load and fire 270 WSM in 7mm WSM rifles. They delayed introducing the 7mm until the case and chambers could be tweaked slightly to prevent this. By the time the 7mm was introduced most everyone who wanted a WSM already had one. If they had been introduced at the same time I think the 7mm WSM would have been more popular than the 270 version.
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Old December 31, 2016, 03:29 PM   #6
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If I were to ever choose a WSM to use, it would be the .325. Most shooters think it's garbage, but it's the best of the whole family, in my opinion.
But... you have to stick with bullets that were designed to work in the 8mm Remington Mag (another cartridge that couldn't make it).


Discussion of the WSMs and WSSMs (remember those hockey pucks? ) reminds me of all the other dead 'short magnums' that were so heavily marketed not too long ago.

The Rugers, the Remingtons, and all the custom shops with their own spin on things.
When was the last time you saw or heard some one talking about the RSAUM, or an RCM; or even just asking where they can find ammunition?
Too many magnums. Not enough buyers.
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Old December 31, 2016, 04:14 PM   #7
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Failed cartridges? There's no such thing, just early obsolescence.

Remember the 225 Winchester? Just a renamed 219 Zipper with the rim turned down. What about the 224 Weatherby? A really short 22 centerfire with a belt. 375 Winchester was a lost cause from the git-go, you couldn't find ammo for it, and it only worked in a special Winchester 94 (so you had to buy a new rifle that people were already avoiding). Here ya go! 30 TC! How about the 284 Winchester? All the 1980s Winchester 94 chamberings (7mm Waters, 307 Winchester, 356 Winchester, etc). Remington Short Action Ultra Mags (pick your favorite caliber)? Lots of losers in the failed cartridges race, many for reasons all their own, others for good reasons. Some that were just different and didn't solve a problem for anyone, others (many) you just couldn't find ammo for!

But some of them should have been winners! 375 Ruger should have been a winner, it did the same for the 375 H&H shooters that the 300 Win Mag did for the 300 H&H shooters, a shorter package with the same performance. 325 WSM should have been a winner, but I suspect it was too much for most shooters, and when Hornady quit making the 220 gr 8mm bullets for the 8mm Rem Mag back in the 80s they knew 8mm wouldn't fly. Basically, you can't just throw garbage out and see what floats, you have to solve a real or perceived problem with anything new you put out, and most of the failed cartridges didn't.
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Old December 31, 2016, 05:05 PM   #8
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Personally I'm more of a handgun guy. When I start looking at all the rifle cartridges for sale my head starts to spin and that's just the common ones. The list of uncommon cartridges goes on and on and on. For rifles give me .30-06 and .223 along with .22lr and I'm good to go.
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Old December 31, 2016, 05:10 PM   #9
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Whether or not Remington's line of BR cartridges will survive much longer is something else. Being a handloader thing, they are all tack drivers and are all great for varmints to medium game at medium ranges that are easy to reload and easy on the shoulder - 22, 6mm and 7mm IMO, are some of the best there are.
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Old December 31, 2016, 07:44 PM   #10
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The 256 Winchester Magnum was a flopperoo. And my personal favorite chambered in a Win. Model 94 was the 25-35. It is still in use, but essentially dead in the water.
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Old December 31, 2016, 09:05 PM   #11
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30 AR and 30 T/C come to mind right off the bat.
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Old December 31, 2016, 09:11 PM   #12
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The sad part is the useful ones that seem to obtain "obsolescence".
6mm Rem (have one and love it)
264 Win
8mm Rem Mag
356/307 Win
7mm Express/280 Rem
284 Win (maybe would have been different if there had been a true M70 short action).
Even the 25-06 seems to be losing ground.
6.5"s seem to have a hard time of it, a real shame.
I'm sure this just scratches the surface and also may be very region dependent.
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Old December 31, 2016, 09:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
375 Winchester was a lost cause from the git-go, you couldn't find ammo for it, and it only worked in a special Winchester 94 (so you had to buy a new rifle that people were already avoiding).
I had a .375 Winchester in a Ruger #3...I also think Marlin might have chambered their 336 Lever Action in .375 Winchester also.
Being a bullet caster and handloader, I had no problem "finding" ammo for mine.
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Old December 31, 2016, 10:20 PM   #14
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So many that were designed to "improve" the 5.56mm will also die slow deaths but won't be missed by most of us.

450 Bushmaster or 458 SOCOM might have a chance but the rest are useless IMO. 6.5 Grendel? 6.8 SPC? 7mm Valkyrie? All are neat but useless.

It also surprises me that the 7mm08 beat the 284 Win since they are so similar.

IMO of course, sorry if I dissed you favorite.

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Old December 31, 2016, 10:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
The sad part is the useful ones that seem to obtain "obsolescence".
Yep.
I own several, and many more are represented throughout my family.
They may be officially obsolete, but they live on in the hands of reloaders that see the true beauty (or just want something different).



Quote:
Originally Posted by dahermit
I had a .375 Winchester in a Ruger #3...I also think Marlin might have chambered their 336 Lever Action in .375 Winchester also.
Being a bullet caster and handloader, I had no problem "finding" ammo for mine.
I think Marlin chambered .375 Win for three years. I searched and came up with nothing, but there was a discussion about the Marlin .375 Win rifles just a few weeks ago on the MarlinOwners forums.
If I remember correctly:
Only three production runs: 1980-1981; 1982; 1983.
Each run was slightly different.
"Mid-production" (1982) rifles have some combination of features that makes them more desirable.
The very, very limited number of 1983 rifles that were chambered for .375 Win and had a cross-bolt safety are sought-after by collectors and Marlin freaks. (Most of the 1983 run, from what I have read, did not have the CBS.)
I think that's right, anyway.
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Old December 31, 2016, 11:20 PM   #16
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"And my personal favorite chambered in a Win. Model 94 was the 25-35. It is still in use, but essentially dead in the water."

After 120+ years I would NOT consider a cartridge "dead" or "dying" or "failed".

Although old with low sales now, it has had a long career. Think I'd call it a success...

T.
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Old January 1, 2017, 12:10 AM   #17
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I seem to remember the 99 Savage in a .375 chambering.
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Old January 1, 2017, 12:13 AM   #18
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Some of the older cartridges were killed off by the manufacturers pushing new rounds. There is a real surge of lever popularity and the gun companies do not seem to care.
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Old January 1, 2017, 12:37 AM   #19
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I predict all the Remington SAUM line will die. Same with Rugers compact magnums.
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Old January 1, 2017, 03:49 AM   #20
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Often left behind

I agree that poor marketing and pushing other cartridges hurt.I do believe that often they try to reinvent the wheel and there is always folks that want the newest and latest thing.But all too often they are slow about making components available and I think it kills them to.
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Old January 1, 2017, 06:19 AM   #21
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5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum anyone?

Every bit as good as the 17 HMR, but Remington doesn't introduce new cartridges well. There is nothing wrong with the RSAUM family either, ballistic wise..

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Old January 1, 2017, 08:20 AM   #22
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I used to hang on a forum where one poster signature was something to the effect: " all I need is my 7x57 and 375HH". (lost my password) Today we have so many choices, I am less surprised by the occasional drop out, than the amazing proliferation of cartridges. In reality the real differences and advantage are either an exaggeration or out right lies from newbie fan boys. And naturally self serving marketing baloney. Now, I am not complaining in a day and age where I can satisfy any whim or fancy that strikes me. I would be hard pressed to name anything I want that I cannot acquire and shoot. Or, I can move 1/2 mm or 0.01 inch caliber up or down to find an alternative.

Old stuff too, who would image factory 44 Schofield ammo. You can find ammo for ALL the failures some are claiming or pretending in this thread. The odd ball stuff is expensive and the choices of common factory guns are limited to the top 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 rounds.
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Old January 1, 2017, 09:01 AM   #23
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I don't believe that there is anything "wrong" with any of the cartridges mentioned. Just bad timing/ failure to advertise/ newer cartridges/ and faults in relation to firearm to cartridge.

Remington has done it several times with the wrong twist rates in their barrels.
With the 6.5mm Rem Mag it was an 18" barrel, for a round that deserved a 24".

Winchester did the same with the 284 Win. Putting it in their lever action guns, instead of a bolt rifle.

Anyone remember the 7-30 Waters??
What about the 30TC??
257 Kimber??

I'm looking at rebarreling one of me Stevens 200's from 308 to 250 Savage. Just waiting for the barrel to get here. (it's in the mail. lol )
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Old January 1, 2017, 09:23 AM   #24
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Quote:
When was the last time you saw or heard some one talking about the RSAUM, or an RCM; or even just asking where they can find ammunition?
Too many magnums. Not enough buyers.
A little historical note on the WSM's that many don't know. The 300 WSM was never intended to compete with the 300 WM. Rick Jamison, a gunwriter somewhat popular in the 1980's and 90's developed a wildcat round he named the 300 Jamison. It was designed to work in a lighter weight short action rifle to be used in steep, rugged terrain. It developed speeds much faster than 30-06, but less than 300 WM. But since it needed considerably less powder recoil was substantially less than 300 WM making it a better option for lightweight rifles.

He tried to sell the idea to Winchester who declined the offer. But within months Winchester introduced the 300 WSM which was close enough to Jamisons wildcat round that Jamison won a lawsuit. The terms of the suit allow him to receive a royalty on each rifle and box of ammo sold for a specified number of years.

Since manufacturers must either sell WSM's at a lower profit margin, or charge more for the guns and ammo they have been reluctant to manufacture them. The ONLY reason Remington and Ruger attempted their own short magnums was to avoid paying the royalty to Jamison. If not for that I believe they would have simply chambered WSM rifles and the rounds would have had more success. Once the terms of the lawsuit settlement expire, less than 10 years I believe, I wouldn't be surprised to see the WSM's to make a comeback.

The WSM concept is a good one, but one that was marketed poorly. Jamison envisioned lighter mountain weight rifles in his chambering and never wanted the "magnum" label attached to the round. Putting the "magnum" label on the round created unrealistic expectations. Most people don't really understand what the rounds are good for. Neither do most manufacturers. There is no reason to offer 300 WM and 300 WSM in the same weight and style rifles.

Ruger chambered the 300 WSM for a while and were one of the few that seemed to "get it". They offered it in a 22" barrel and 16.5" barrel. The round is pretty efficient in shorter barrels and even the 16.5" guns are pretty fast. Their RCM's were all offered in 20" guns and easily beat 22" barreled 30-06's with very little more recoil.
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Old January 1, 2017, 03:36 PM   #25
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I don't believe that there is anything "wrong" with any of the cartridges mentioned. Just bad timing/ failure to advertise/ newer cartridges/ and faults in relation to firearm to cartridge
Or simply too many boutique cartridges that do the same thing that 4 other cartridge do fine?
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