guy I know killed an intruder here's the story

Doggieman · May 3, 2006, 09:50 PM

I met a guy awhile back, friend of a friend, I'll call him John. He comes from a rich family but you wouldn't know it as he's got tattoos and such all over him and doesn't do anything for a living, anything at all.

Anyway we were sitting around his place the first time I met him -- me, my friend, John and his girlfriend drinking, smoking a little and my friend says "so tell him your story".. John has this story that he tells EVERYONE, if I remember it correctly here it goes:

So John's a gun collector and has plenty of them and usually kept one on the nightstand (I don't know what caliber or type). He was laying on his bed one day as usual doing nothing. From his bed he could could see the front door of his apartment through a mirror in the hallway (it was apparently another apartment not the one we were in when he was telling me this). And what do you know, as he's sitting there on his bed in the afternoon smoking and watching TV he sees the front door open and a guy wearing all black with a ponytail peer in. Next thing the guy comes into the house and John sees he's got a gun in his hand.

So after his eyes stop popping out of his head John picks up his gun and goes down the hallway and looks around the corner and the guy is in his living room checking out John's stuff. His back is turned and John knows enough that he doesn't want to pop the guy in the back so he aims his gun at the guy and goes, "Hey!" The guy turns around and (so John says) raises his weapon, whereby John starts shooting.

John gave a surprisingly accurate account of where all the bullets went, maybe the cops told him later I don't know. But he ended up unloading his entire magazine, a dozen or so shots, into the guy. And according to John all but the last round connected with the guy's upper torso, neck or head. The last shot went over his head because by that time he was slumping to the floor, or what was left of him was anyway.

John said that all the movies he'd seen up until then didn't prepare him for the amount of blood and bone that splattered not only on the floor but on the walls and the ceiling. Everywhere, but more on that in a sec.

So after the slide locked open John staggered over to the phone and dialed 911 and told them what happened. The 911 operator told him to put the gun down and stay on the phone. Apparently someone else had already called and they were sending cops. So John waited there on the phone and the cops came and threw open the door and freaked when they saw the body and all the blood and roughly grabbed John and hauled him away. They got him to the police station and told him to make a list of everyone he knew because they apparently thought it was some sort of drug deal gone bad (which, knowing John, I wouldn't really be that surprised if it had been).

Anyway John said he wanted to talk to an attorney and then he called his dad and his dad called apparently some big shot attorney who marched in with 3 other attorneys and told John not to say anything or write anything or sign anything. And the cops never pressed any charges but John says his record now has something like "Justifiable homicide" on it that comes up whenever a cop runs his ID, so any time he gets pulled over the cop will ask him about it and he'll tell his whole story again. He also says that initially the cops harassed him about the fact that he shot the guy so many times but his lawyers told him that the police are trained to empty their weapons when shooting an assailant (not sure about that one) and I guess that shut 'em up.

So John got home and they'd carted off the body but all the blood and assorted fragments were still all over and there were teeth parts embedded in his wall. He had to have the carpet replaced and the drywall torn out and totally redone and soon afterward he left the apartment.

So that's the story. Maybe John's on this board, I don't know, that would be crazy. Maybe he would recognize his own story.

<Foster> · May 3, 2006, 11:23 PM

Man... its a grizzly business when you really think about it. I hope i never have to do anything like that, but its comforting (in a way i guess) that he emptied an entire clip into the guy and didnt get convicted of anything. Man thatd be a pain havin that on your record tho.

Doggieman · May 3, 2006, 11:49 PM

that's one thing about the story (not the only thing) that I question though.. is it true that even if you're never charged you'd have something like that on your record? That just seems strange to me.

GlocksRfun · May 4, 2006, 12:58 AM

Yeah, kinda hard to get your security deposit back when u leave asorted body parts immbedded in the wall and blood staining pretty much everything.

Josh Aston · May 4, 2006, 01:07 AM

That story reaks of BS. Beginning from the fact that he had no qualms about discussing it with you and continuing on to the cops being trained to empty there mags. And just about everything in between as well.

Glock 31 · May 4, 2006, 01:12 AM

Not to doubt your friend's word on the matter, but it seems a little hard to believe. I've never heard of any self defense class that teaches to unload clips into people, regardless of the situation. The more rounds you use, the harder it is to justify it in court. But ok, assuming he got off for it, I'm surprised to hear that the blood and bone stuff was still all over. Because in any shooting death incident, after detectives check the scene over and are done with their findings, it is required procedure to have a professional cleaning crew, usually specializing in crime scene cleanup, to come in and deep clean everything. And I mean everything. They're supposed to pull up carpet, knock out walls, whatever it takes to make it like it never happened. Probably cause of biohazard procedures. You know having some guys fluids sprayed all over an apartment complex is not exactly condusive to sanitary living.

But assuming everything with his story is straight, +1 to your friend. Can't say I feel bad for the BG.

Doggieman · May 4, 2006, 01:28 AM

I can't comment on the veracity of his story, since I have no idea. I can just say that the above is what he told me to the best of my remembrance. I believed the essence of the story at the time, and I still do. However, I have my doubts as to certain details. He'd have to be an absolute nut to make up a story like that out of the blue and tell everyone he knows about it if it were completely false. Stranger things have happened for sure, but I'd put my money on it being 75% true at least.

Doggieman · May 4, 2006, 01:36 AM

here's an article on crime scene cleanup-- apparently it's a relatively recent thing. Wasn't till 1993 that the first dedicated crime scene cleanup company came into existence on the East Coast.

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/so...gore-9903.html

According to the article:

"Also, [John Birrer] had been present on numerous occasions when, after the coroner had removed the body and police had concluded their investigation, the stunned survivors would stand outside the victim's home, frozen with uncertainty and remorse, unsure what to do next.

"It's not the responsibility of law enforcement to clean up at a death scene, unfortunately," he affirms. "But I saw plenty of people--these people are already more overwhelmed than they'd ever been in their lives--with no idea what to do next. So there was a definite need for experienced professionals to step in."

Since the incident happened in the mid-90's I can imagine a situation where no pro clean up crew would come.

Billy Sparks · May 4, 2006, 06:28 AM

The PD or whoever is in no way responsible for cleanup after a crime/accident whatever occured at least not in NC. With that said I think his story is slightly suspect. In my years in emergency services I have ran several shootings, except for the occassional shotgun in the mouth I have never seen "teeth parts embedded in the walls". What was he shooting at him with a anti-tank gun?

Edited to add: Now I have seen the preverbal "Brains dripping from the ceilings" but usualy the gun was very close to the victim when it happened (suicide or execution).

NukemJim · May 4, 2006, 06:54 AM

Quote:

I've never heard of any self defense class that teaches to unload clips into people, regardless of the situation.

I've been throught several classes that teach "shoot till the threat is over" if that means emptying the firearm then that is what you do.

NukemJim

PS I do not know but my BS detector is going off about that story.

ironrice · May 4, 2006, 10:03 AM

Weather the story is BS or not I don't see how it would be hard to justify unloading your clip in court. Look at the Amadu(I forgot how to spell his name) case in NY. The cops, 3 or 4 of them, unloaded all their clips, something like 49 shots total and they were not charged with anything even though the guy they shot had no weapon. The guy was not the criminal they were looking for either, he was a cab driver that got chased by plain clothed officers and got shot. So unloading a clip into a bad guy doesn't seem like it's a bad thing or something they can use against you in court. You're running on adrenaline and it can be justified in that way. In the military they don't necessary teach to unload your clip on a target but you engage until the target is no threat. So if he unloaded his clip and most of his shots hit the guy then the bad guy was still a threat till the last bullet.

Pat Rogers · May 4, 2006, 10:15 AM

Ironrice
When putting something in print, it is good to have your facts straight. Unlike the spoken word, what is in writing is forever.
So, would you care to state your authority - where you received these so called facts from?

RoSAR1 · May 4, 2006, 10:22 AM

You wouldn't have justifiable homicide on your record, your friends either an idiot or a liar. The only time something goes on your record is when YOU BREAK THE LAW and are convicted of that crime. I call BS

Avizpls · May 4, 2006, 10:32 AM

Quote:

And according to John all but the last round connected with the guy's upper torso, neck or head. The last shot went over his head because by that time he was slumping to the floor, or what was left of him was anyway

It takes a long time for a 200 pound man to drop to the floor when he stops holding himself up.

PythonGuy · May 4, 2006, 10:41 AM

This reads just like a novel I recently finished down to the teeth, except in the novel they were imbedded in a guy's abdomen. I can't recall the authors name at the moment, he has a series with this mercenary who is an action hero type, but his writings sound very much like this narrative. Just as real too I'm sure.

ironrice · May 4, 2006, 10:54 AM

Alright pat care to be more specific? When you're writing to get some facts you need to be more specific on what you want to know. My military training or the Amadu incident in NY?
Here is Amadou Diallo who was killed my NYPD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_...hooting_victim)
Here's another article about him:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...henation/nypd/
and another one:
http://www.courttv.com/trials/diallo/
So I'm sorry it wasn't 49 shots, it was 41 shots and 19 hit this guy. So do I have my facts straight? Not really but the incident really happened. Also, I was merely stating an opinion about unloading your clip. I said "... unloading a clip into a bad guy doesn't SEEM like it's a bad thing or something they can use against you in court." It was an opinion not a fact. I did major in Criminal Justice in college and I admit I'm not a law expert but this is just my opinion. Now with my military training I don't have to justify that to you. I serve my country and serve it well. I'm a pilot in the Air Force so we don't train on small weapons tactics like Security Forces or the Army but we do get trained and they train us to stop a treat until it's not a threat. So my question to you is why does it seem like your tone is very judgement and condecending?

Capt. Charlie · May 4, 2006, 12:34 PM

Quote:

And the cops never pressed any charges but John says his record now has something like "Justifiable homicide" on it that comes up whenever a cop runs his ID, so any time he gets pulled over the cop will ask him about it and he'll tell his whole story again.

I can't swear to the policies of all 50 states, but the Computerized Criminal History (CCH) files in NCIC are highly restricted. Not all officers have access to them and every inquiry must be justified with an active investigation case number, and they are all audited to ensure compliance.

When you run a vehicle tag or driver's license query, you don't get anything back involving a criminal history, unless it happens to be an active warrant, and even then, the reply is restricted to that only.

I don't know about the rest of the story, but that part of it makes me somewhat suspicious of the whole. I'm not questioning your veracity, but I suspect your friend has embellished the story somewhat.

Pat Rogers · May 4, 2006, 12:54 PM

Ironrice,
Thank you for your service to your country.
I am cognizant on how the services train, and how little training most in the military receive. Having just finished training some CATM's, i understand that outside of AFSOC, most pilots shoot 1x every two years. Feel free to correct me if i missated what they told me.
Having said that...
Re Diallo.
You stated "3 or 4". Actually four MOS from Street Crime were involved in the shooting. While a minor point here, it wasn't so minor when it is official.

You stated "All unloaded their (sic) clips".
Untrue. Two officers did shoot their guns dry, but two didn't.

You stated "they were not charged with anything"
Again untrue. They were indicted and charged with Murder 2. They were acquitted after trial. Pretty big difference, no?

You stated he was a cab driver
Actually he was a street vendor

Every organization, cop, fed or mil that i have worked with, been assigned to or traines has to follow either the law or ROE. Deadly Physical Force is not something to be taken lightly of course, and the way it is applied is always subject to review.
Shooting until the threat is stopped is an excellent guideline.
Having been a cop in NYPD, and having used my revolver for real, and having been in front of the Grand Jury and testify at trial may give me a different outlook on this, much the same as your outlook and slipping the surly bonds might be different then mine.

The reason why the errornet is such a bad place for information is because anyone can post anything, and everyone will immediately believe it.

ironrice · May 4, 2006, 12:58 PM

Alright, cool. This case happened a long time ago and I should have checked the references before I posted. Some of the facts were wrong, will do next time.

And with the Air Force, pilots hardly get trained in small weapon tactics. When were you in NYPD? I used to live in Newark NJ and this was a big case up there.

Pat Rogers · May 4, 2006, 01:15 PM

73-93, and happily retired from there. What do you drive?

RoSAR1 · May 4, 2006, 03:34 PM

Captain Charlie, I was told by a sheriff that in Ohio when you're pulled over the officer sees EVERYTHING, even things you did as a juvenile that have been exponged. I doubt he was lying because he was a good friend of my best friends mother and the conversation was had while he was off duty so he wasn't trying to scare anyone.

Capt. Charlie · May 4, 2006, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Captain Charlie, I was told by a sheriff that in Ohio when you're pulled over the officer sees EVERYTHING, even things you did as a juvenile that have been exponged. I doubt he was lying because he was a good friend of my best friends mother and the conversation was had while he was off duty so he wasn't trying to scare anyone.

Nope. I don't know why he told you that other than kidding. I've been a certified LEADS/NCIC operator with CCH access for over 24 years. NCIC (National Crime Information Center) maintains and controls the CCH (Computerized Criminal History) files and is run by the FBI. Each state has its own system, but they are overseen by the FBI.

Ohio LEADS (Law Enforcement Automated Data System) is no exception, and the results of a CCH query are so closely guarded that the computer screen displaying the results must be shielded from public view, and hard copy printouts must be shredded after use. Violations can result in that entire department's access to NCIC being revoked.

Further, expunged means expunged. Only the court can open sealed records, and no law enforcement officer has access to them without a court order. In Ohio, juvenile records are automatically expunged when said juvenile turns 18.

Nortonics · May 4, 2006, 04:14 PM

LOL! - Set down the crack pipe every so-often and come back to reality boyz.

leadcounsel · May 4, 2006, 04:41 PM

I call BS.

Several things in the story don't add up.

Why would some stranger tell you this? I don't buy it. This guy's trying to make friends or impress you and make you think he's a tough guy or above the law or whatever.

Didn't the cops smell the weed that your friend was smoking either on him or in the apartment?

Didn't the cops search the apartment? In any shooting I think it reasonable that the cops could and would search (snoop through) the remainder of the apartment for possible dangers -- whereupon they discover weed?

I don't think anything would have been on his record, but am not sure.

I don't think that the carnage is going to be quite what he described from any typical handgun.

I find it hard to believe that John squeezed off a full magazine of ammo, missed only once, and the BG didn't seem to get a shot off. And the BG continued to stand up during the entire magazine being emptied but couldn't muster the strength to shoot back?! Right! He either would fall immediately or if not he'd shoot back. Which is it? Real life isn't the movies where people get shot and just stand there taking shot after shot.

Teeth imbedded in the wall. I doubt it. Brains on the ceiling! I doubt it. Did he lob a grenade at the guy?

John apparently gave the BG a chance to shoot back by yelling "Hey" and letting him turn around. Either very stupid or embellished or a lie. How about the phrase, "Don't move and drop your gun or I'll shoot."

Lawyers aren't going to show up at crime scenes in groups of 3. It's completely unnecessary. I've never heard of such a thing.

The armed intruder didn't bother looking to see if anyone was in the UNLOCKED apartment, but instead just went over to look at the stereo! Doubt it.

The whole story smells of BS. Sorry.

Powderman · May 4, 2006, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Captain Charlie, I was told by a sheriff that in Ohio when you're pulled over the officer sees EVERYTHING, even things you did as a juvenile that have been exponged. I doubt he was lying because he was a good friend of my best friends mother and the conversation was had while he was off duty so he wasn't trying to scare anyone.

CPT Charlie is giving you the straight stuff.

The CHRI (Criminal History Records Index) is severely restricted, due to the potential for great misdoing at the hands of the person accessing the records.

You MUST have a valid reason for a criminal history check (pedigree).

Here, I (and other cops in this State--or any other) can only request a check based on an articulable contact, and at no other time. There are severe penalties including jail time and stiff fines for misuse of the system.

I usually have several such checks during a patrol shift. These are always printed out in hard copies--which are enclosed in full with the additional items to be filed with my report. In other words, they don't even leave the station.

And, the only time that criminal history shows up is if you HAVE a criminal history. Casual contact with an officer does not count. You have to be arrested, arraigned, tried and convicted. (except for some traffic offenses)

May 3, 2006, 09:50 PM	#1
Doggieman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2006 Location: San Diego, Calif. Posts: 717	guy I know killed an intruder here's the story I met a guy awhile back, friend of a friend, I'll call him John. He comes from a rich family but you wouldn't know it as he's got tattoos and such all over him and doesn't do anything for a living, anything at all. Anyway we were sitting around his place the first time I met him -- me, my friend, John and his girlfriend drinking, smoking a little and my friend says "so tell him your story".. John has this story that he tells EVERYONE, if I remember it correctly here it goes: So John's a gun collector and has plenty of them and usually kept one on the nightstand (I don't know what caliber or type). He was laying on his bed one day as usual doing nothing. From his bed he could could see the front door of his apartment through a mirror in the hallway (it was apparently another apartment not the one we were in when he was telling me this). And what do you know, as he's sitting there on his bed in the afternoon smoking and watching TV he sees the front door open and a guy wearing all black with a ponytail peer in. Next thing the guy comes into the house and John sees he's got a gun in his hand. So after his eyes stop popping out of his head John picks up his gun and goes down the hallway and looks around the corner and the guy is in his living room checking out John's stuff. His back is turned and John knows enough that he doesn't want to pop the guy in the back so he aims his gun at the guy and goes, "Hey!" The guy turns around and (so John says) raises his weapon, whereby John starts shooting. John gave a surprisingly accurate account of where all the bullets went, maybe the cops told him later I don't know. But he ended up unloading his entire magazine, a dozen or so shots, into the guy. And according to John all but the last round connected with the guy's upper torso, neck or head. The last shot went over his head because by that time he was slumping to the floor, or what was left of him was anyway. John said that all the movies he'd seen up until then didn't prepare him for the amount of blood and bone that splattered not only on the floor but on the walls and the ceiling. Everywhere, but more on that in a sec. So after the slide locked open John staggered over to the phone and dialed 911 and told them what happened. The 911 operator told him to put the gun down and stay on the phone. Apparently someone else had already called and they were sending cops. So John waited there on the phone and the cops came and threw open the door and freaked when they saw the body and all the blood and roughly grabbed John and hauled him away. They got him to the police station and told him to make a list of everyone he knew because they apparently thought it was some sort of drug deal gone bad (which, knowing John, I wouldn't really be that surprised if it had been). Anyway John said he wanted to talk to an attorney and then he called his dad and his dad called apparently some big shot attorney who marched in with 3 other attorneys and told John not to say anything or write anything or sign anything. And the cops never pressed any charges but John says his record now has something like "Justifiable homicide" on it that comes up whenever a cop runs his ID, so any time he gets pulled over the cop will ask him about it and he'll tell his whole story again. He also says that initially the cops harassed him about the fact that he shot the guy so many times but his lawyers told him that the police are trained to empty their weapons when shooting an assailant (not sure about that one) and I guess that shut 'em up. So John got home and they'd carted off the body but all the blood and assorted fragments were still all over and there were teeth parts embedded in his wall. He had to have the carpet replaced and the drywall torn out and totally redone and soon afterward he left the apartment. So that's the story. Maybe John's on this board, I don't know, that would be crazy. Maybe he would recognize his own story.

May 3, 2006, 11:49 PM	#3
Doggieman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2006 Location: San Diego, Calif. Posts: 717	yeah that's one thing about the story (not the only thing) that I question though.. is it true that even if you're never charged you'd have something like that on your record? That just seems strange to me.

May 4, 2006, 01:28 AM	#7
Doggieman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2006 Location: San Diego, Calif. Posts: 717	? I can't comment on the veracity of his story, since I have no idea. I can just say that the above is what he told me to the best of my remembrance. I believed the essence of the story at the time, and I still do. However, I have my doubts as to certain details. He'd have to be an absolute nut to make up a story like that out of the blue and tell everyone he knows about it if it were completely false. Stranger things have happened for sure, but I'd put my money on it being 75% true at least.

May 4, 2006, 01:36 AM	#8
Doggieman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2006 Location: San Diego, Calif. Posts: 717	article here's an article on crime scene cleanup-- apparently it's a relatively recent thing. Wasn't till 1993 that the first dedicated crime scene cleanup company came into existence on the East Coast. http://www.metroactive.com/papers/so...gore-9903.html According to the article: "Also, [John Birrer] had been present on numerous occasions when, after the coroner had removed the body and police had concluded their investigation, the stunned survivors would stand outside the victim's home, frozen with uncertainty and remorse, unsure what to do next. "It's not the responsibility of law enforcement to clean up at a death scene, unfortunately," he affirms. "But I saw plenty of people--these people are already more overwhelmed than they'd ever been in their lives--with no idea what to do next. So there was a definite need for experienced professionals to step in." Since the incident happened in the mid-90's I can imagine a situation where no pro clean up crew would come.

May 4, 2006, 10:15 AM	#12
Pat Rogers Member in memoriam Join Date: July 31, 2001 Posts: 303	Ironrice When putting something in print, it is good to have your facts straight. Unlike the spoken word, what is in writing is forever. So, would you care to state your authority - where you received these so called facts from? __________________ S/F Pat sends www.eagtactical.com

May 3, 2006, 11:23 PM	#2
<Foster> Member Join Date: February 3, 2006 Posts: 37	Man... its a grizzly business when you really think about it. I hope i never have to do anything like that, but its comforting (in a way i guess) that he emptied an entire clip into the guy and didnt get convicted of anything. Man thatd be a pain havin that on your record tho.

May 4, 2006, 12:58 AM	#4
GlocksRfun Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 423	Yeah, kinda hard to get your security deposit back when u leave asorted body parts immbedded in the wall and blood staining pretty much everything.

May 4, 2006, 01:07 AM	#5
Josh Aston Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: North Pole Posts: 74	That story reaks of BS. Beginning from the fact that he had no qualms about discussing it with you and continuing on to the cops being trained to empty there mags. And just about everything in between as well.

May 4, 2006, 01:12 AM	#6
Glock 31 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Posts: 541	Not to doubt your friend's word on the matter, but it seems a little hard to believe. I've never heard of any self defense class that teaches to unload clips into people, regardless of the situation. The more rounds you use, the harder it is to justify it in court. But ok, assuming he got off for it, I'm surprised to hear that the blood and bone stuff was still all over. Because in any shooting death incident, after detectives check the scene over and are done with their findings, it is required procedure to have a professional cleaning crew, usually specializing in crime scene cleanup, to come in and deep clean everything. And I mean everything. They're supposed to pull up carpet, knock out walls, whatever it takes to make it like it never happened. Probably cause of biohazard procedures. You know having some guys fluids sprayed all over an apartment complex is not exactly condusive to sanitary living. But assuming everything with his story is straight, +1 to your friend. Can't say I feel bad for the BG.

May 4, 2006, 06:28 AM	#9
Billy Sparks Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC 27105 Posts: 745	The PD or whoever is in no way responsible for cleanup after a crime/accident whatever occured at least not in NC. With that said I think his story is slightly suspect. In my years in emergency services I have ran several shootings, except for the occassional shotgun in the mouth I have never seen "teeth parts embedded in the walls". What was he shooting at him with a anti-tank gun? Edited to add: Now I have seen the preverbal "Brains dripping from the ceilings" but usualy the gun was very close to the victim when it happened (suicide or execution).

May 4, 2006, 10:03 AM	#11
ironrice Member Join Date: April 6, 2006 Posts: 18	Weather the story is BS or not I don't see how it would be hard to justify unloading your clip in court. Look at the Amadu(I forgot how to spell his name) case in NY. The cops, 3 or 4 of them, unloaded all their clips, something like 49 shots total and they were not charged with anything even though the guy they shot had no weapon. The guy was not the criminal they were looking for either, he was a cab driver that got chased by plain clothed officers and got shot. So unloading a clip into a bad guy doesn't seem like it's a bad thing or something they can use against you in court. You're running on adrenaline and it can be justified in that way. In the military they don't necessary teach to unload your clip on a target but you engage until the target is no threat. So if he unloaded his clip and most of his shots hit the guy then the bad guy was still a threat till the last bullet.

May 4, 2006, 10:22 AM	#13
RoSAR1 Junior member Join Date: March 20, 2006 Posts: 47	You wouldn't have justifiable homicide on your record, your friends either an idiot or a liar. The only time something goes on your record is when YOU BREAK THE LAW and are convicted of that crime. I call BS

May 4, 2006, 10:41 AM	#15
PythonGuy Junior member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 456	This reads just like a novel I recently finished down to the teeth, except in the novel they were imbedded in a guy's abdomen. I can't recall the authors name at the moment, he has a series with this mercenary who is an action hero type, but his writings sound very much like this narrative. Just as real too I'm sure.

May 4, 2006, 10:54 AM	#16
ironrice Member Join Date: April 6, 2006 Posts: 18	Alright pat care to be more specific? When you're writing to get some facts you need to be more specific on what you want to know. My military training or the Amadu incident in NY? Here is Amadou Diallo who was killed my NYPD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_...hooting_victim) Here's another article about him: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...henation/nypd/ and another one: http://www.courttv.com/trials/diallo/ So I'm sorry it wasn't 49 shots, it was 41 shots and 19 hit this guy. So do I have my facts straight? Not really but the incident really happened. Also, I was merely stating an opinion about unloading your clip. I said "... unloading a clip into a bad guy doesn't SEEM like it's a bad thing or something they can use against you in court." It was an opinion not a fact. I did major in Criminal Justice in college and I admit I'm not a law expert but this is just my opinion. Now with my military training I don't have to justify that to you. I serve my country and serve it well. I'm a pilot in the Air Force so we don't train on small weapons tactics like Security Forces or the Army but we do get trained and they train us to stop a treat until it's not a threat. So my question to you is why does it seem like your tone is very judgement and condecending?

May 4, 2006, 12:54 PM	#18
Pat Rogers Member in memoriam Join Date: July 31, 2001 Posts: 303	Ironrice, Thank you for your service to your country. I am cognizant on how the services train, and how little training most in the military receive. Having just finished training some CATM's, i understand that outside of AFSOC, most pilots shoot 1x every two years. Feel free to correct me if i missated what they told me. Having said that... Re Diallo. You stated "3 or 4". Actually four MOS from Street Crime were involved in the shooting. While a minor point here, it wasn't so minor when it is official. You stated "All unloaded their (sic) clips". Untrue. Two officers did shoot their guns dry, but two didn't. You stated "they were not charged with anything" Again untrue. They were indicted and charged with Murder 2. They were acquitted after trial. Pretty big difference, no? You stated he was a cab driver Actually he was a street vendor Every organization, cop, fed or mil that i have worked with, been assigned to or traines has to follow either the law or ROE. Deadly Physical Force is not something to be taken lightly of course, and the way it is applied is always subject to review. Shooting until the threat is stopped is an excellent guideline. Having been a cop in NYPD, and having used my revolver for real, and having been in front of the Grand Jury and testify at trial may give me a different outlook on this, much the same as your outlook and slipping the surly bonds might be different then mine. The reason why the errornet is such a bad place for information is because anyone can post anything, and everyone will immediately believe it. __________________ S/F Pat sends www.eagtactical.com

May 4, 2006, 12:58 PM	#19
ironrice Member Join Date: April 6, 2006 Posts: 18	Alright, cool. This case happened a long time ago and I should have checked the references before I posted. Some of the facts were wrong, will do next time. And with the Air Force, pilots hardly get trained in small weapon tactics. When were you in NYPD? I used to live in Newark NJ and this was a big case up there.

May 4, 2006, 01:15 PM	#20
Pat Rogers Member in memoriam Join Date: July 31, 2001 Posts: 303	73-93, and happily retired from there. What do you drive? __________________ S/F Pat sends www.eagtactical.com

May 4, 2006, 03:34 PM	#21
RoSAR1 Junior member Join Date: March 20, 2006 Posts: 47	Captain Charlie, I was told by a sheriff that in Ohio when you're pulled over the officer sees EVERYTHING, even things you did as a juvenile that have been exponged. I doubt he was lying because he was a good friend of my best friends mother and the conversation was had while he was off duty so he wasn't trying to scare anyone.

May 4, 2006, 04:14 PM	#23
Nortonics Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2004 Location: Murderapolis Posts: 521	LOL! - Set down the crack pipe every so-often and come back to reality boyz. __________________ Tom.

May 4, 2006, 04:41 PM	#24
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	I call BS. Several things in the story don't add up. Why would some stranger tell you this? I don't buy it. This guy's trying to make friends or impress you and make you think he's a tough guy or above the law or whatever. Didn't the cops smell the weed that your friend was smoking either on him or in the apartment? Didn't the cops search the apartment? In any shooting I think it reasonable that the cops could and would search (snoop through) the remainder of the apartment for possible dangers -- whereupon they discover weed? I don't think anything would have been on his record, but am not sure. I don't think that the carnage is going to be quite what he described from any typical handgun. I find it hard to believe that John squeezed off a full magazine of ammo, missed only once, and the BG didn't seem to get a shot off. And the BG continued to stand up during the entire magazine being emptied but couldn't muster the strength to shoot back?! Right! He either would fall immediately or if not he'd shoot back. Which is it? Real life isn't the movies where people get shot and just stand there taking shot after shot. Teeth imbedded in the wall. I doubt it. Brains on the ceiling! I doubt it. Did he lob a grenade at the guy? John apparently gave the BG a chance to shoot back by yelling "Hey" and letting him turn around. Either very stupid or embellished or a lie. How about the phrase, "Don't move and drop your gun or I'll shoot." Lawyers aren't going to show up at crime scenes in groups of 3. It's completely unnecessary. I've never heard of such a thing. The armed intruder didn't bother looking to see if anyone was in the UNLOCKED apartment, but instead just went over to look at the stereo! Doubt it. The whole story smells of BS. Sorry.