The April 11, 1986 FBI Miami SHOOTOUT

[Sleuth]

Tyler, if you were found with unauthorized ammo, you could get a repremand (in writing)! Plus, at the time ONLY FBI SWAT guys could carry the 459. Same with the MP5. Regular agents could not get one from the vault.

BTW, the FBI did provide the agents with 'suitable' firearms and ammo. It's just that an agent in New Mexico may have different needs from an agent in NYC - but no variation was allowed. In that regard, depending on who was in charge, my agency was the same. It took years to get semi-autos, but then we could carry our own. Later, there was a change in command, and only the issue S&W 6906 was allowed. Then we could carry our own, as long as they were DA for the first shot.

Also, not every Fed in every agent was a good shot - or even liked to carry a gun! The PR flacks would like you to believe otherwise, but I have seen guys & gals unable to hit the side of a barn - from the inside!

[TylerD45ACP]

LoL the barn from the inside. That stinks though so you could get in huge trouble just for having a couple IN CASE 357's so thats a no no. I figured it would be. Say If I was SWAT like in Doves postion I would have the MP5 on rock n roll.

-- About the ammo and carrying regulations I feel bad for the agents. It sounds like they were given what was minimal to "survive" and do their job. I feel bad for you LEO's back they who were undergunned because of politics or what have you. Thanks for the info always interesting.

[Sleuth]

Back when I started, I did not feel undergunned with my 5 shot .38 and a shotgun. It was a different time. But I practiced alot with that gun - which I still have and shoot!

When I retired, I carried a SIG 220 & two spare mags, and a Steyr AUG 5.56 3 shot burst with 3 spare mags, and still did not feel undergunned. But I had been the lead instructor at our academy in Firearms and Officer Safety and Survival for 9 years by then. I put a lot of rounds through that AUG, and the SIG.

[TylerD45ACP]

Sounds like you know what your talking about. I would imagine so after so many great year of service, thank you. Practice is key. I would probably feel ok back then with a .38 and a shotgun but would still want a bit more in my pistol, a Semi. I Just prefer them as primary's, revolvers as BUGs. But Id have to be SWAT.

--- A Sig 220 with 25 rounds of 45ACP and an AUG with 120 rounds of 5.56 would defintley make me feel comfortable. I just rather trade the firearms up.

[secret_agent_man]

I did not feel undergunned with my 5 shot .38 and a shotgun

A shotgun is like good fried chicken. Hard to pass up.

[Archer 9505]

Very Interesting thread. I just read "Forensic Analysis of April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight", thanks to an earlier poster. I am a history buff and find the depression era with its' heavily armed violent mechanized bandits particularly interesting. I find the Lawmen of that time to be much more interesting than the crooks. Guys like Charles Winstead, Delf Bryce and Walter Walsh were recruited because of their shooting skills. After a rocky start, the FBI upped their armament to include Colt Monitors (BAR's), 1911 .38 Supers, Smith and Wesson Registered Magnums, Thompson submachine guns and .351 Winchesters ( a handy little semi auto carbine capable of firing a 180 gr slug at 1800 FPS). The Posse of six (Frank Hamer etal) that killed Bonnie and Clyde had Remington Model 8's with extended magazines and 1918 Browning Automatic Rifles. I am reminded of the old Texas Ranger Joke.. A ranger is at a barbecue, when asked "Why do you have a pistol, are you expecting trouble?" he answers "If I was expecting trouble, I'd have my rifle".

I wonder how Delf Bryce or Charles Winstead would have equiped theirselve for a rendeouvous with Platt and Matix.

How would things have turned out if Agents Dove and Grogan had been firing .351 Winchesters (better yet Passenger side Dove with a Colt Monitor) during the open rounds of the shootout instead of 9mm's?

20/20 hindsight and pure speculation. There is a lesson in this history; bring enough gun.

[TylerD45ACP]

A Colt Monitor (Bar) In Doves Position could have ended it with one magazine and chewed them to pieces. I am interested in the old time lawmen too. Winstead was particularly interesting and is the actual man that got the Kill shots (Most likely) on Dillinger. The FBI couldnt handle Dillenger and men like him. They are too quick and used to reactive quick violence. The FBI was kind of a step behind in terms of mindset until they uparmored as you said. They needed to call in Winstead and his buddies, guys that are used to Dillinger type violence. The 38super was awesome and In that time period I would probably carry a 1911 chambered for 38super and one in 45 . Thats a good joke and absolutley true.

-- As for your scenario how they would be equiped. Lets replace Dove with Winstead and Grogan with Bryce in the car. I bet the would have quite a few firearms. Winstead would probably open up with a Thompson or BAR being the passenger he would start shooting earlier. Bryce would probably have a .351 or some type of shotgun. The would probably have stopped the fight in 20-30seconds after the crash armed like that. Im sure they would have multiple pistols as well, on there person and with them. Guys were alot tougher back then,imo.------Bring enough gun is the ultimate lesson. If you know you got a fight use a rifle/shotgun not a pistol. Its that simple.

[Sleuth]

Not widely known, the FBI had a few Thompsons made in .38 Super. A friend of mine got to shoot one. Now THAT would be an interesting gun for use in the 30's. I wonder how many .38 Supers would fit in a .45 Cal 50 round drum?

The 100 round drums are too heavy and awkward.

[TylerD45ACP]

Agreed the 50's were better. I bet about 90-120 38 supers could get into a 50 rounds drum of the 45 size it would just have to be longer and set up different. By the way thats AWESOME 38SUPER THOMPSONS . I fired a 45 ACP Thompson M1a1 but with grip and compensator in Vegas. I loved it and found it to be astoundingly controllable and accurate with good bursts.

--- I agree about the 100rd drums also they had alot of functional problems. 50 is plenty just take another drum or 8

[bds32]

I wonder how Delf Bryce or Charles Winstead would have equiped theirselve for a rendeouvous with Platt and Matix.

I too am very intrigued by the lawmen of yesteryear and have done a lot of reading on the matter. Another guy that was tough as nails back then but not with the FBI was Frank Pape with the Chicago P.D. Robbery Squad. These guys did not hesitate. If you were a threat to them, they took the offensive and came at you like a wild predator.

It is hard to say what they would have equipped themselves with. However, being men of experience, I believe they would have taken some serious long guns with them. I think a guy like Bryce, after reading his biography, would have rushed Platt while he was getting out of the car and shot him at close range.

[federali]

In the very early days of skyjacking, there was an incident at New York's JFK Airport of a skyjacker holding a plane full of passengers somewhere on the tarmac. The decision was made to take out the skyjacker. AN FBI sniper was brought in. His only shot was to shoot from atop the jet blast barrier which is used to divert the thrust of jet engines in a safe direction. To do this, the agent had to remove his suit jacket to climb the barrier. This was before law enforcement started using para-military garb. Anyway, his shot was successful. One skyjacker dead. But, the agent's photo was in the Daily News just before he fired. Hoover became so incensed that the agent had removed his jacket in public, and was photographed that way, that he re-assigned the agent to some hole-in-the-wall jurisdiction as punishment.

Interestingly, Hoover would fire any agent he suspected of being gay. There is now persuasive evidence that Hoover enjoyed a long term gay relationship with his long-time side kick and companion, Clyde Tolson, Ass.t. Director of the FBI.

+1 to the several posters who cited the mindless buracracy within federal agencies. The FBI had layers of buracracy which served as an inpenetrable barrier to insulate their top brass from the rank and file. It was instrumental in allowing 9/11 to happen.

[secret_agent_man]

Tolson and Hoover were not gay. They were on the down low.

[Capt. Charlie]

Alrighty then, after 187 posts, just about everything that can be said, has been said, and it's beginning to wander off topic.

Before closing this however, I will say that this topic has been discussed numerous times here at TFL, and this discussion has been one of the best. For the most part, the posters here have been responsible, thorough and civil, and for that, you have my thanks .

Closed.