A Good Rifle For Bear Protection; Has Marlin Arms Gone Downhill?

[adn258]

Ok so after hours of research and experience etc. living in Montana I've come to the conclusion that the most practical rifle for being near dangerous game like Grizzly Bears etc. would be like a Marlin .444 Marlin .450 or a 45-70 round preferably in a lever action gun. This is at least the case for me. I've carried a 12 Guage Shotgun before loaded with Slugs but I find that this is just too heavy for time out in the back country and I don't like it.


I Used to think the Marlin guns were amazing like the Marlin 45-70 1895G GUIDE GUN specifically designed for being out in the woods, but now as of lately I've been hearing a lot of rumors and what not of people saying Marlin firearms has really gone downhill?

Is this true? Are most of the new Marlin Arms really bad? I was thinking a substitute like the Model 1886 Winchester which DOES seem to be a great gun at a high price.

I'd prefer NOT to spend that kind of money for a gun like this though maybe that's what it takes now? Are there are good lightweight alternatives that are like the Marline 1895G or the Marlin 1895BGL? Or is Marlin still a good gun? Here are my requirements in what I would prefer for a bear gun:

-A model close in size to the 45-70,
-A Lever Action (Preferred)
-A Magazine that holds at least 4 rounds but I REALLY PREFER 6
-A Gun That Weighs Less Than 10 pounds like the marlin Guns
-A Gun That isn't too long like the 1895G now


Does anyone have any advice or suggestions? Thank You!

[FrankenMauser]

From about 2007 onward, Marlin quality was going downhill. When Remington took over in 2009(?), it took a massive nosedive. Things got so bad that they dropped over half a dozen 336-based models*, just so they'd have time to fix the low quality junk that kept coming back in the door for repairs. And things were still so bad, that they ceased all production of Marlin leverguns for several months, to retrain employees and adjust, repair, and retool equipment.
*(The 444 action is based on the 336, and the 1895 action is based on the 444. They're all 336s, at heart.)

Things are a little better now, and slowly improving.
The .444s and .450s were among the models that were dropped early on. Remington just couldn't get the receivers or barrels machined properly, and it cause a lot of problems.

They are back in production for 2014, however, after Remington completely retooled for the specialty receivers (all new equipment). The first shipment of 444s went out in January. Another shipment goes out in May or June. And, I believe the first 'new' .450s ship in July or August.
So far, reviews of the 'new' 444s have been pretty good.

It's still too early to make a definitive call about whether or not you can count on Remington building a quality .444 or .450 Marlin levergun, but things are looking good for now....

[adn258]

Very good information Franken. Do you know if any of the 2014 models of the 45-70 are any better, or if they are making them? I would "prefer" a 45-70 lever action gun, though it isn't a must as I know a .444 is close.

[Blindstitch]

Franken summed it up pretty good.

Why don't you buy used. There are many 444's out there on the used market and some look just as good as new.

[PeteApps]

I bought an 1895 GBL from a local dealer last year. It is fine, no problems at all.

There are lots of stories on Marlin Owners forum about this subject. IMO don't buy a new Marlin without handling it.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Well is this for when you are fishing, "woods-bumming" (no particular purpose / hiking), hunting with a bow, or what?

Because if "woods-bumming" I suppose the answer *might* be "Wait for Marlin to fix all the problems and get an 1895 SBL, GG, GBL, etc.", as you indicate is the preference. But a better answer might be, why burden yourself - carry a LARGE can of pepper spray as your primary defense tool on your right/strong side hip, and as a backup in case the OC and evasion/avoidance don't work, a large revolver in a cross-draw holster on your weak side hip. OC spray is more effective as a deterrent than a gun, and as a bonus: hands are free, bear doesn't die, and you don't have to deal with proving self-defense to authorities.

If fishing or hunting with bow, answer would definitely be pepper spray with possible handgun backup, so you can use your hands, but at least with general hiking / woods-bumming, there's a plausible want/need that outweighs the negatives of carrying a longgun I suppose. Having said that, there are 12 gauge shotguns which are much *lighter*, not heavier, than the all-steel-&-wood Marlin 1895s (even the short-barreled ones). There are plastic-furniture, alum-receiver shotguns that are super-light, even in 12 guage, so they will kick like a PO'ed mule with slugs- but you're talking about probably-never-have-to-use go, so who cares? I'd look into that for super-light, emergency-only weapon.

Now for something lighter than even the Marlin, with a lot of oomph, with the capacity you mention? I don't think there is anything like that. But for the capacity issue, there are several turnbolts on gunbroker right now in .450 bushmaster, which packs a pretty good penetrating wallop, and would be a bit lighter, but only hold about 4+1.

Others have nicely covered the Marlin QC issue for you. Thank you Frankenmauser.

[FrankenMauser]

My advice would be:
Go fondle a few of the rifles, and see what you think of fit, finish, etc.
If it looks well put together, it shouldn't give you problems.


However, while typing that, I remembered two things that need to be addressed:
1. If you handload, you can get every bit as much performance out of .444 Marlin, as you can out of .45-70 (assuming they're both limited to the constraints of a Marlin levergun). It's really a toss-up for handloaders, performance wise.

2. .444 Marlin is a nightmare to source brass, bullets, dies, and ammo for right now. If I were wanting to buy a new big bore levergun and wasn't already set up for the cartridges, I wouldn't go anywhere near .444 Marlin. Right now, about the only ammo available is the Hornady 265 gr FTX LeverEvolution load (which is a terrible bullet, in my opinion). Even if you bought it "just for the brass" .... it's 'LeverEvolution' brass. It's shorter than standard length, in order to accommodate the extra length of the gummy tipped bullets. So, it does not play well with anything but the 225 and 265 gr FTX bullets.


I'm a big fan of .444 Marlin. I have one in the safe, and another at the gunsmith, getting customized (it's actually a former .30-30 336 that I'm turning into a 444).
But if I didn't have a solid, dependable source for brass and bullets, there's no way I would buy one right now. And if I wasn't a reloader, I'd stay even farther away.

[Water-Man]

Another choice is a Rossi Levergun in .454 Casull.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Another choice is a Rossi Levergun in .454 Casull.

Good point. Or for that matter, .45 colt or .44 mag.

Say, whatever happened to the claims from a few years back by the naysayers that the .454 casull Rossi/LSI pumas were an accident waiting to happen / the receivers stretched/ they ain't up to the task?

Judging by the fact that they're still being sold, I'd venture a guess that the naysayers were wrong.

http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=

Too bad they don't make a 16" in .454 casull - that'd be the pig's feces.

[Paul B.]

"1. If you handload, you can get every bit as much performance out of .444 Marlin, as you can out of .45-70 (assuming they're both limited to the constraints of a Marlin levergun). It's really a toss-up for handloaders, performance wise."

I'm not sure I agree with this, at least if one is using a current factory firearm. As an example, If I were facing off with a bear that decided I was lunch, I'd want the heaviest bullet that the rifle would throw at the highest velocity possible. You can go to 500 gr. in a 45-70 but the heavier .44 caliber bullets possible for use in the .444 won't stabilize due to a twist rate more in line for the 240 gr. bullets although it might work with a 300 gr. bullet. The late Frank de Haas wrote an article where he built a single shot rifle or was it a rebarrel? I forget. It's been quite a while since I saw the article. Anyway it had the standard factory twist barrel and would not stabilize heavier bullets. Mr. de Haas rebarreled using a 1 in 22" twist, the same found in most 45-70 rifles and bullet stabilization was no longer a problem with bullets up to, IIRC 350 to 400 gr. Might be very interesting to check and see if Marlin or now Remington did in fact go to a faster twist rate in the barrel. My choice would be a 45-70 with the 400 gr. RCBS cast bullet loaded up as hot as the rifle could safely stand.
Paul B.

[dgludwig]

I was thinking a substitute like the Model 1886 Winchester which DOES seem to be a great gun at a high price.

It is a great gun but, as you noted, the prices have been climbing in the past few years. Back in 2008, I paid $725.00 for a new Winchester "Extra Light Weight" repo (Miroku), chambered in 45-70 and having a 22" long barrel, but I think they're fetching over a grand now. In my experience, the 1886 (and similar Model 71) actions are some of the smoothest working leverguns ever made; smoother than any Marlin I've ever stroked. The 1886 is also a very strong action. My rifle, fitted with a Williams "FoolProof" receiver sight weighs just over seven pounds.

[FrankenMauser]

Older 1:38" twist rate Mirco-Groove .444 barrels didn't like low velocity lead bullets, or pretty much anything over 280-300 grains.

However, that twist rate is history (as it should be - it's a handgun twist rate). In 1998, Marlin went to Ballard-rifled barrels with a 1:20" twist rate. They can handle projectiles in excess of 500 grains (all the way down to about 1,300 fps), and that's what all current .444 Marlin rifles are using (at least from CVA, Marlin, H&R, and TC).

The .45-70, in a Marlin 1895 is generally limited to 400 grain bullets, due to OAL interfering with powder capacity. As such, you're looking at 1,800-1,950 fps for a 'top end' load. Using bullets over 400 grains really kills powder capacity and velocity nosedives in response.

The .444 Marlin is right in the same ballpark - 400 gr bullets at 1,800-1,950 fps. With some specialty bullets, you can even exceed that and reach up to 2,200 fps. There are, of course, no factory loads in that range, though. Once you go beyond about 330 gr, for .444 Marlin, you're handloading.
And, like the .45-70, once you go very far beyond about 380 gr bullets, you're really eating into powder capacity - and taking a big bite out of attainable velocity.

Marlin designed the .444 to be the "modern .45-70" of its time, within the constraints of the 336 action. ...and it does that job pretty well.

The only real handicaps are: limited component availability (right now), some factory loads using crappy bullets (Remington 240 gr SP and HP and Hornady 265 gr FTX in particular), and that terrible 1:38" twist rate in pre-'98 rifles (but if you buy a Winchester, you get a proper twist rate).

[Karys]

Like others have said here, they were really bad but are getting better.

I would consider buying a new "Remlin" but I would never buy one sight unseen and would be sure to look it over thoroughly.

If you really want to be sure you get a good one, definitely buy a JM stamped version made in New Haven, CT before 2009 when Remington took over. Gotta warn you though, prices on JM stamped Marlins are climbing, especially if the gun is in good shape.

[KBP75]

Why not a Remington 870 with 00 Buckshot? With a short barrel, it is not heavier than a rifle. 12 .32 caliber roundballs with each shot and the ability to pump out 5 shots in a few seconds yields 60 .32 caliber holes in whatever is chasing you is serious firepower!

[green_MTman]

me and the wife are going camping in green mountain national forest in a few weeks.prime black bear country.i know even inland grizzlies are bigger than the biggest black bears.
im gonna bring the 16ga with #6 bird shot.firing the gun in a safe direction should scare the bear away but if not bird shot to the face or upper neck would work inside of 5 feet.if i had a 12 with 00 buck i would go with that but i had to sell my mossberg 12 to make a car payment a few months ago,so oh well.
i dont want to bring the nice rifle where it would be out of its case and getting dirty or wet while camping

[jmr40]

There is nothing more simple, rugged or reliable as a quality bolt gun. The 45-70 and 444 are both very much over rated for use on large game. My personal choice would be either a stainless/synthetic Ruger or Winchester bolt gun with a CRF action chambered in 30-06 loaded with 5 or 6 rounds of 220 gr Nosler Partitions. I'd have a barrel no longer than 22" and would cut it to 20" if a dedicated close range bear gun and put a quality 1-4X scope on it. If it makes you feel better the same rifle in 338 WM or 375 would be an option.

The Savage Hog hunter in 338 WM would be a serious contender for under $400.





You'll spend less money, have a lighter, more reliable rifle in harsh conditions and get better penetration on larger game. While the actors in cowboy movies can shoot blanks from pistol caliber lever guns pretty fast, you cannot do that with heavy loads from hard kicking rifle calibers. The bolt rifle is just as fast for aimed repeat shots in the real world.

[Mystro]

I have been eyeing that Savage Hog Hunter just because it looks like a great general purpose rifle in a serious caliber. It seems like a no brainer for the money.

In reality for where I live, my good old pre 64 M94 is my goto rifle for brush and tracking.

[loic]

Buy a used one with the JM stamp on the left side of the barrel. I have 3 marlins that I bought used, one that was made in 1982 , 336 30-30; one in 1980 same 336 in 30-30 (I gave it to my son 2 years ago for his 14th birthday but I keep it here because he lives in europe) and the last one a 1951 waffle top 336 in .35 remington (I really like that one !)
The .35 rem :

[FrankenMauser]

Buy a used one with the JM stamp on the left side of the barrel.

I agree. But....
For .444 Marlin and .45-70, that statement needs to be modified to include, "made between August 1998 and 2006".

That way you get a proper barrel, and you don't have to worry about a rifle that was built when Marlin started giving up on quality (before Remington was even in the picture).

[4V50 Gary]

Used Marlin (pre-safety) in 45-70. That's the way I went for my bear gun.

[6.5swedeforelk]

In my opinion, a can of bear spray in a holster would serve the majority of folks on here.

The very fact that you're getting another gun JUST for bear protection means that it will be unfamilar to you. Quick-where is the safety!
Does it hit your shoulder uncanted every time?

JMR40-you noted the 6 rounds in your bolt action...
How many can you fire in "one thousand one, one thousand t" because that's about the time you have in a determined bear charge from 20 paces.

And GreenMt, I wish that you'd rethink your defense plan of blinding a bear in a national park. No slugs available anywhere for a 16ga?

[Jack O'Conner]

Years ago, I enjoyed many backpack fishing trips into the wilderness country of Wyoming. This is grizzley country, too. I carried a featherweight single shot 16 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs. Never had a problem with bears so I can't report on its effectiveness.

Jack

[green_MTman]

16 ammo is real scarce now although i might have a round or two of slugs packed away somewhere.

@point blank range i dont see a real problem with #6 shot

[kutz]

My Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in .450 of about 2003 has been wonderful, but it did need a Limb Saver recoil pad, I know, WHOoSe.

[6.5swedeforelk]

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/66057

16 ammo is real scarce now although i might have a round or two of slugs packed away somewhere.

GreenMT, Remington 16ga slugs, $4.59 per bx at this link.