Browning Hi Power

[RickB]

Don't load your gun until immediately before firing.
Don't put a loaded gun in a holster.
Don't do a lot of things that most people think are absolutely necessary.

[Erno86]

Defendants in jury trials that involve shootings, have gotten into trouble by removing their BHP disconnector; so much that the opposing lawyer will accuse you altered the BHP in such a way that made it easier to kill people.

[jag2]

Really? Sounds like the same internet crapola about shooting someone with hand loads, Homeland security is buying up all the ammo, etc. Can you site a case? What is your source?

[Limnophile]

There are all sorts of horror stories about unscrupulous prosecutors hounding self-defense survivors. But, I think one who argues that removal of a magazine disconnect safety makes one an irresponsible killer loses credibility, at least if your defense attorney and jury are competent. You might have to hire a credible expert witness to point out that most comparable pistols have no mag disconnect, that many BHP owners opt to disable their mag disconnects, and that the absence of a mag disconnect played no role (almost certainly) in the shooting in question.

At least that's one theory. Before having your carry pistol modified in any way, consider the jurisdiction(s) you carry in. If the populace and politicians are progressive, it might be wise to limit any modifications to cosmetics.

[sicumj]

I did some trigger work to mine years ago and got it to around 4.5lb without disconnecting or removing any parts. You can always do the old revolver trick of pushing forward on the hammer and pulling the trigger. Do this about 50 - 100 times and it will make a difference.

I seriously doubt that the authorities would even notice that the pistol was modified unless something calls their attention to the mechanics of the weapon. Anything can happen in court, but a good self defense shoot should be ruled justified. Act responsible use your weapon as a last result as it should be will go a long way in eliminating suspicion and further investigation.

[Erno86]

I believe I read about the advice from some author who published a story in some gun magazine many years ago; warning owners not to remove the disconnector on the BHP due to previous jury trial litigations. That warning, has decided on myself...that I will not remove my disconnector on my BHP.

[WVsig]

I believe I read about the advice from some author who published a story in some gun magazine many years ago; warning owners not to remove the disconnector on the BHP due to previous jury trial litigations. That warning, has decided on myself...that I will not remove my disconnector on my BHP.

That is a highly contested point.

[Erno86]

Google: the legal ramifications on removing the BHP disconnector


"If the defendant removes an integral safety device {mag disconnector} then that becomes ammunition for the prosecution to 'fabricate' a scenario villanizing the defendant. The jury on these cases are average Joes most of whom are unfamiliar with weapons and their functions and most of them fear guns and their users.

The prosecution will say, 'The defendant is so reckless that he deactivated a safety device on a lethal weapon!!!'"

[WVsig]

"If the defendant removes an integral safety device {mag disconnector} then that becomes ammunition for the prosecution to 'fabricate' a scenario villanizing the defendant. The jury on these cases are average Joes most of whom are unfamiliar with weapons and their functions and most of them fear guns and their users.

The prosecution will say, 'The defendant is so reckless that he deactivated a safety device on a lethal weapon!!!'"

Case law please... Please sight a case where this happened. This line of thought is often attributed to Ayoob. Last time it was discussed on THR he chimed in and all he could site was one case where the BHP was not even used in the shooting event which was a negligent discharge of a different firearm but a BHP was in the car and became part of the case. He could not elaborate because it was settled out of court and sealed IIRC.

Beyond that he could not give another example. So was is often propagated as internet truth is really just his opinion which not everyone shares.

[RickB]

I'd ask the prosecutor to prove that the magazine disconnector is a safety device?
Two of the largest shooting sports in the world, USPSA/IPSC and IDPA, do not consider the mag disconnector a safety.
Some police departments require that their duty pistols have the disconnector, some departments don't allow them, and I suspect officer safety is the reason in both cases.
A mixed bag, at best.

[Limnophile]

As I recall, the French military, which commissioned the design of the BHP, required the mag disconnect, presumably as a safety mechanism. I can't think of how it could be an effective safety, other than it allows one to eject the mag and safe the gun before a bad guy can wrest it from and turn it on you. But, if you are nimble and sharp enough to remember to do that, you are probably good enough to not get into such a jam in the first place.

I think Ayoob has a propensity to turn his expert witness experiences into magazine articles, even experiences, such as this one, that are relatively minor. However, I can see a progressive, anti-gun prosecutor raising the issue, and, if he does, even if you never set foot in a courtroom, you will likely spend good money on attorney and expert witness time to convince the prosecutor to back off.

If you carry in pro-American jurisdictions, disabling a mag disconnect is likely a complete non-issue. If you carry in progressive jurisdictions it's likely a minor issue at most.

[Ibmikey]

I think i am a bit confused, how did a greasy BHP end up in court with questionable safety parts removed? Back to a question asked some time before, what caused the OP to take his HP to a gunsmith in the first place? Did the pistol malfunction and the GS attributed it to excess grease? If the HP functions fine for the OP, grease or no grease what is the problem? I will wait for the OP's response to clear my confusion.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by Ibmikey

I think i am a bit confused, how did a greasy BHP end up in court with questionable safety parts removed? Back to a question asked some time before, what caused the OP to take his HP to a gunsmith in the first place? Did the pistol malfunction and the GS attributed it to excess grease? If the HP functions fine for the OP, grease or no grease what is the problem? I will wait for the OP's response to clear my confusion.

The OP stated:

Originally Posted by joe-lumber

He suggested doing some work to smooth the trigger pull because it is somewhat gritty since it has been parkerized. The BHP shoots great and almost no recoil like those more modern plastic ones and it feels great in the hand.

People then suggested that he remove the magazine disconnect to get rid of the gritty feel of the trigger because often the grit that people feel is the disconnector rubbing against the mag.

That prompted Erno86 to claim that you will end up in legal trouble if you remove it. It comes up almost everytime anyone mentions taking the mag disconnect out of a BHP.

Reading the entire thread would have revealed this. LOL

[Erno86]

Here are a few quotes from Massad Ayoob, Aug. 6, 2009, post #21- Legal ramifications of mag safety removal

"A search of caselaw databases under topics such as 'magazine disconnector' are unlikely to turn up anything. Caselaw is made of appealed issues. Shootings with modified guns are rare. Moreover, courts tend to leave this sort of argument within the realm of attorney and trial judge discretion.

As noted, because most folks don't remove safety devices from handguns, this rarely comes up. The one case I've consulted on a number of years ago by Mark Seiden, the prominent Miami defense attorney. His client was charged with manslaughter relating to the accidental discharge of a factory stock Colt Commander.

The discharge took place in an office, making the office area a crime scene, including the parking lot. The client's car was searched, and the police recovered a Browning Hi-Power the defendant kept loaded in the vehicle. He had bought it used, the magazine disconnector safety already removed and had left it in that condition.


The assigned prosecutor made a huge deal over this, claiming that it showed a propensity to do reckless and negligent things with loaded weapons, even though that gun was in no way involved in the death in question.

Notice that even though the gun was in that condition when he bought it second hand. The state was prepared to argue that this was no excuse: the man was still using, for defensive purposes presumably, a lethal weapon with a safety device removed.

Mark got the guy a good plea deal, and has ask me to spare his client further humiliation by not mentioning his name. Out of respect to Mark, I've agreed to that stipulation. However, anyone can contact Attorney Mark Seiden in Miami, Fl. and confirm the nature of the case."

[WVsig]

Right Erno86 that is the case but if you notice the BHP was not the central issue. The defendant accidentally shooting someone with the Colt Commander was the issue.

Even if we consider this on point that means 1 case. I am not sure we can then make definitive statements about future cases from that one case. We just have one precedent which in my non-legal opinion is not that strong. YMMV

Instead of beating this dead horse how about we both agree to do what we think is best with the BHPs we own.

[ttarp]

I use a lot of oil, a lot. If I could actually be damaging my firearms from over lubing them I'd like to know, but from where I stand(ok sitting at a computer) the only issue with over oiling is collecting dirt, and as long as you don't mind cleaning after every range trip or two I don't really see a problem there. Am I missing something?

[Limnophile]

My understanding is:

- Use too little lube and you risk damaging your pistol or, more likely, making it cease to function.
- Use too much lube and you risk --

• getting your pistol dirtier (including the innards not accessible by field stripping)
• getting your clothing dirty
• getting your surroundings dirty
• having to put in more effort to clean the gun.

And, of course, using more lube than necessary means using more resources than needed, including cleaning resources.

All told, it's probably better to err on the side of using a bit too much rather than too little.

[dahermit]

If one is concerned about the resale value of the pistol you can simply remove the disconnect and then replace it when you go to sell it.

That makes sense to me. However, I wonder if your widow will know how to replace the parts, even if she knows what they are after you die. Oh well, she did not want top dollar for your B. H.P. anyway...she just wants to make due with what she can get for an altered gun. Hummm... I wonder what else the guy did to it. "I had better low-ball her and justify the low price by pointing out to her that the gun has been altered." Yup, removing the magazine safety will not effect the price what-so-ever...just put it back in.

[dahermit]

Grease on the trigger pad is next to useless...

If you are referring to the pad on the magazine safety, it is not useless to grease it in the context of a temporary expediency like just range use...I would not recommend it for a carry gun though. Since I do not use my H.P. as a carry gun, I can attest to the effectiveness of putting grease on the magazine safety pad...it improves the trigger pull drastically.

[WVsig]

That makes sense to me. However, I wonder if your widow will know how to replace the parts, even if she knows what they are after you die. Oh well, she did not want top dollar for your B. H.P. anyway...she just wants to make due with what she can get for an altered gun. Hummm... I wonder what else the guy did to it. "I had better low-ball her and justify the low price by pointing out to her that the gun has been altered." Yup, removing the magazine safety will not effect the price what-so-ever...just put it back in.

My wife is an intelligent enough woman that she will be able to get top $$$ for my guns when I am worm food. She knows that I do not own crappy firearms, that they have been maliciously maintained and have no modifications which diminish their value. Maybe your wife does not have the same knowledge. Maybe she will not be able to get a good price for the guns that might remain in your collection after you pass. All poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles.

Your strawman argument is really pretty weak. If you are actively shooting the gun you are lowing the collector value or value overall in that gun every single time you pull the trigger. If you are selling a gun to a true collector leave it as is and don't shoot it. Use it as a pretty paper weight. People talk about value as if there is an absolute. Really unless the gun is unfired everything else is relative.

If you are shooting the gun on the regular the magazine disconnect will not be the major factor in devaluation. As I have pointed out actual usage and the wear associated with it will be the major factor. If after you pass the gun is sold to a shooter they will appreciate that the mag disconnect has been removed if they are familiar withe the BHP. Very few of the top BHP smiths leave the disconnect in by default. In fact most remove it by default and only leave it in if requested. The mag disconnect not being present will not greatly effect the value of the pistol as long as the seller knows the value of the pistol in question.

If by some chance you die before being able to reinstall it any loss can be minimized by marking and labeling your spare parts so that any wife, significant other or heir of any kind of will be able to match parts to the proper gun. So even if it is not installed at the time of the same the proper part will be there. As for the other work done on a particular gun the invoice for said custom work should suffice to explain the modifications and their value. If it was a minor part swap then it should not effect value unless your significant other is ignorant of the pistol in question.

Your attempt at syllogism was weak IMHO. I would have expected better.

[Sweet Shooter]

I use a synthetic grease and I load the rails up with it. The gun will spit out what it doesn't want in the first 10 shots. The remaining grease, while some may say "attracts" dirt, helps keep that dirt out of the gun. It also helps keep water out in the rain. There is no more, or less, dirt/debris but what you see is what would normally end up in the gun. Golden rule keep your chamber free of any lube.

I never use oil on fast moving parts.

Oh and having the dirt suspended in the grease makes it a cinch to clean.
-SS-

[sirgilligan]

If you find you have used too much grease, clean it up and use less.
If you find that you don't like grease at all, use oil.

As to the magazine disconnect, doesn't it only come into play in the following scenario:

• Accidental shooting or discharge
• Magazine was out of firearm
• Chamber was loaded

If I intentionally shoot someone, then it doesn't come into play. The mere act of shooting someone means I was also willing to deal with the possibility of the person dying from the shot.

As to the case mentioned, if the BHP found in the car had the magazine in it, then it doesn't matter. If, the magazine was out and the chamber was loaded then someone could state that the person was taking advantage of the removal of the safety. Granted it would be an idiotic way to leave a firearm for self defense in such a condition.

[Erno86]

I didn't know I was "beating a dead horse," since I've only been on this forum for so long.

[Limnophile]

As to the magazine disconnect, doesn't it only come into play in the following scenario:

- Accidental shooting or discharge
- Magazine was out of firearm
- Chamber was loaded

You are correct, but in the single case Ayoob hangs his hat on, the fact that a gun, not even involved in the ND, had a "safety device" disabled was used to demonize the shooter. The tactic may well have worked to the prosecutor's advantage, as Ayoob notes a plea bargain was reached. If the case would have gone to trial the prosecutor would probably have been a fool to bring up the irrelevant fact to the jury. But, leaning on the accused to get a good plea deal from the state's perspective makes sense, and it caused the careless fellow to spend good money buying Ayoob's time.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If you are in a shooting case that goes to trial, anything the prosecutor can do to demonize you WILL be done. If you don't train at all, you'll be painted as negligent. If you train beyond what your state requires, you'll be painted as a Rambo-wannabe.

The main thing is to understand why you are making a specific modification and document it so you can explain it later if need be. For example, if you shoot IDPA, removing the magazine disconnect makes it easier (and safer) to drop your magazine and show clear instead of trying to jam your saluting finger up the magwell to activate the mag disconnect so you can drop the hammer.

Regarding a magazine safety disconnect being removed, if someone is shot accidentally or negligently with that pistol, you've got a problem. All of life involves making risk/benefit determinations, even crossing the street. This is just another one of those areas with a miniscule probability; but serious consequences if it should happen.

If you want to reduce the grittiness without removing the disconnect, polishing the disconnect surface, the magazine surface, or (my favorite) grooving the surface of the mag disconnect to reduce surface area contacting the mag all are helpful - as are high lubricity coatings like chrome or NP3 for those parts.