muzzle loader vrs cartridge gun... charge per charge... how do they compare ???

[CraigC]

Yes, I suppose that's true but I still think it's the best platform AVAILABLE.

I think the best way to test this is with a fast twist .45 or .50cal muzzleloader (for using conicals) against a cartridge rifle with the same length barrel, similar twist rate, chambered in an appropriate .45 or .50cal straight-walled cartridge. Bullet and weight should be near identical, as should powder and charge.

I too have often wondered about the difference and would love to see the results of some credible, comprehensive testing. Just to know.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I agree that it would be better that way. I don't think that's a terribly likely scenario though.

If we wanted to be REALLY precise, even a straight walled 50cal rifle would not be good enough because the chamber would be smaller than the ML by the thickness of the case.

The 45-70 is fairly straight walled, compared to most modern cartridges. The reduction over the full 2.1 inch case is only .025 inches.

It would be better if the ML were 45cal also, but I don't believe that there is any such thing as a 45cal smokeless ML, at least not at any reasonable price point that I have seen.

In fact, having looked up the numbers, the Savage is producing more like 2250fps with 57gr of N120, so it's actually about 88% as efficient as the cartridge load.

I know, a couple of guys with a gun and a chrony is not exactly "scientific" but it's still pretty good data for comparison.

[CraigC]

It would be a hell of a lot closer than comparing a .50cal muzzleloader with a .45 sabot to a .45-70!

I don't think that's a terribly likely scenario though.

Why is that? As long as the tester has two very similar rifles, I think the results would be pretty indicative. Since the original post pertained to blackpowder, I'd say any smokeless reference is tangent to the discussion.

[Brian Pfleuger]

The OP used a BP gun as an example. The original question did not specify.

You don't like my comparison, I think it's fine.

Until somebody comes up with something better, it's all we've got available.


I'm not going to argue the point any farther.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I'd think any old 45 caliber percussion muzzleloader with an equal charge & equal weight bullet against a 45-70 loaded with black powder ( with equal length barrels ) would get me close to the answer I'm looking for... in fact I have a 45 caliber percussion rifle... maybe I should give them a shot ( so far, I've never loaded a black powder cartridge actually with black powder though )

while I find the Savage rifle interesting, I'm more interested in the power differences between that black powder express rifle, & ( for example ) my new Remington Bakail double rifle in 45-70 ( the express rifles are available in 45 caliber as well, even though I have been looking at the 50 caliber version... even though I plan on smokeless loads in the double, it could fire a couple black powder just for comparision sake... the fact that the Savage is capable of smokeless offers 2 different oportunities for expirimentation ( I always wondered why they didn't make smokelss muzzleloaders & then Savage went & did it...

I could compare a black powder charged 50-70 round through my Martini, but the barrel is longer than the Express rifles, & I don't think cutting the barrel on the Martini is prudent

[CraigC]

You don't like my comparison, I think it's fine.

I don't like it because it is seriously flawed. You're comparing a .50cal muzzleloader to a .45cal cartridge rifle. As I said before, for a given powder charge, the pressure and thus velocity will be higher in the .45-70. You don't see the problem with that??? Compare it to an equally loaded, comparably configured .50-70 or .50-90 and the results would be usable. Although the results won't be quite as meaningful to someone who despises modern inlines.

Until somebody comes up with something better

I already did!

I'm not going to argue the point any farther.

Good!

[sc928porsche]

BP cartridges must be slight compression loaded. If powder charge, card (or wad) and bullet do not fill the cartridge, then a filler must be used to fill up the air space above the wad and below the bullet. Most wads are .030 and .060 thick and made of a compressable material like felt. There are a lot of fillers, but I do like cornmeal.

[W. C. Quantrill]

.45-70 cases with 70 grains of Goex compressed to seat the 500 grain Govt bullet. This is almost 1/2" OF COMPRESSION using a compression die. 70 grains of Goex almost fills the case level full.


.45-70 loaded. Almost half the bullet is seated in the case.

Comparing this load to a smokeless abberation of fantasy is apples and oranges.