Rolled crimp, or taper crimp my revolver ammo.

[spleify]

Hi all! First post on this board! I have read a lot of the posts so far, but I have a specific question.

First let me say that I asked this question of someone that ,IMO, should not be giving advice but for some reason I listened to him.

I was reloading some .44 mag shells and asked if I needed to crimp the bullets in. He said I would be ok if I didn't and to not worry about it, well......200 rounds later I was done(minus crimping). I went shooting this weekend and loaded up my S&W 629DX revolver. 3 rounds later, the gun jammed, go figure right.... Obviously the bullets moved forward in the case. I am very lucky nothing serious happened.

Soooooo, what is really recommended here. My bullets are not grooved, and are hollow jacketed hollow point, I have close to 200 rounds loaded sitting waiting for help. I suppose on the same note, I loaded a couple hundred .45 acp rounds also, and did NOT crimp those, but they seemed to fire just fine in my 1911 with no issues, do I need to roll crim or taper crimp these too?

Thanks for any and all info it is greatly appreciated.

[Doodlebugger45]

Yeah you really need to roll crimp the 44 mags. It doesn't take a whole lot to be effective though. If you look at the factory ammo, the roll crimp isn't very extreme at all.

No need to pull the bullets or anything. You can STILL put a roll crimp on those rounds you have loaded up already. Put them in the seating die and back out the seating plug many turns so it isn't trying to push the bullet deeper. Then rotate the die in until it just touches the shell. That is where you originally had it probably if you locked it. Now, just lower the die body a little bit at a time. Lower it down say 1/4 of a turn and feel the resistance. It should crimp the case very slightly. Keep screwing the die in just a little bit at a time until you have the crimp you desire. Like I said though, for a 44 mag, you don't need a full neck down crimp. It only takes a very slight visible roll into the cannelure to make a difference.

Oh wait, it just dawned on me what you meant by "not grooved". You have no cannelure? Hmmm... I dunno. Honestly I haven't used a .44 bullet without a crimping groove. You could try a Factory Crimp Die I guess but it might afffect bullet accuracy. I guess I would still try crimping them in the manner I suggested. In this case it would be a taper crimp, but it's better than no crimp at all.

On the 45 ACP, it sounds like you did it just right. They don't need a roll crimp.

[Farmland]

I crimp my 44 mag shells for the reason you stated. The best way I can describe it is that I put a little bite in the bullet.

The 45 will get a taper crimp. The crimp must be tight enough so the bullet will not move. You can test it by pushing the nose of the bullet down on a table. This one is hard to explain because the taper crimp will not look like the roll crimp on the 44 mag.

Sometimes just a slight crimp on the 45 will do because of the tension on the bullet and case. But in any event the table test will help you figure out if you have enough of a taper.

Some people may put a even tighter taper crimp on the 45, in any event you don't want the bullet to move when feeding or shooting, unless of course it is the one in the barrel.

[spleify]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Doodlebugger, you are correct my bullets do NOT have a cannelure on my bullets. From what I have read everything says "Bullets intended to be roll crimped must have a crimping cannelure (a crimping groove). Do not attempt to roll crimp bullets without a cannelure". Is it still ok to do this? Or should I just try a taper crimp? I have also read that length is very important when roll crimping, and, while all shells are within range, I did not cut them all to the SAME lenght, so is this going to be an issue for me?

Thanks again for all the help!!

[MaineColt]

I taper crimp my 44 mag rounds. I don't roll crimp because I feel that a taper is easier on the brass there at the mouth of the case. My taper crimp holds well, I shoot a lot of 305 grain bullets loaded at max. No bullet shifting.

With 45acp, being a rimless case it is headspaced on the mouth of the case. So you need to be careful when crimping those.

[Ruger4570]

Taper crimps work on autos because for one thing, they generally don't recoil as much and don't move the bullets forward, at least in my "normal" loads. The second reason for taper crimp is that the 45ACP headspaces on the case mouth, a roll crimp would mess up that feature and probably either go into the chamber too deep to fire or at least NOT headspace correctly another bad situation.
Roll crimps work on revolvers as they generally headspace on the rim and with much more recoil, need the grip of a roll crimp.
I guess rather than pull all those bullets, I would carefully apply a roll crimp as best you can. I wouldn't go overboadr, just enough crimp to hold them. With no cannelure it is tough to get a good crimp, but you should be able to get enough grab to hold the bullets in.
I suppose you could use up the shells you have by single loading them, whew, what a pain that is.
Good luck to ya with this.

[spleify]

Thanks so much for the help everyone! Could you all please offer me a little more info on "head space"?

Am I going to have a problem not having a cannelure on my bullets? And wil the fact that shell length may vary?

Thanks

[Ruger4570]

If you want a lot of info on headspace you will have to do some homework on the internet. It would take me hours to explain all the details. BASICALLY headspace is the relationship where shells have to set within a chamber to be safe. Too long and the shell may not chamber, too short and it might not fire or it may rupture because of lack of metal support or what is called "excessive headspace".
There are illustrations available to you if you look for them.
In your 44 Mag, headspace is on the rim so longer or shorter within reason is not a problem, same with your Fathers 45-70.
The cannelure on bullets is to give you someplace to crimp the case into, to lock the bullet in place. I shoot a Ruger 45-70 and since it is a single shot, no chance of bullet movement, I do NOT crimp my bullets at all. The neck friction is more than adequate to hold the slugs in place.
Cartridge overall length will determine where the crimp hit the slug. Obviously, the more accurate and consistant this point is.. the more repeatable your bullets accuracy will be.

[spleify]

Thanks Ruger! I will research headspace. I understand what the cannelure does, my question is, am I going to have any issues with my bullets that DON'T have a cannelure? Should I ditch these bullets and get new ones? Or will I be ok to just roll crimp the ones I have as best I can and next go round get different bullets? Also is the variations in case length going to pose a problem?

Thanks for all the help!

[dmazur]

Some powders require a "firm roll crimp" for .44 Mag loads, or you won't get proper performance. I believe H110 is one of these powders.

In regard to varying case length, about all you can do with the loaded rounds is "sneak up on" every round with small die adjustments, so you create a proper crimp without over-crimping.

For the future, you should probably trim the cases to a consistent length, according to specifications, before reloading. Then a single die setting will create uniform crimps for the whole "run".

[spleify]

Ok thanks dmazur! I am using H110, so does this creat a new problem for me. I am not opposed to pulling all these bullets and abbandoning them. I would much rather be safe then sorry. I don't have a problem just getting new bullets.

Thanks

[spleify]

Any other opinions on this?

Thanks

[Jim Watson]

My opinion is:
Get some real revolver bullets with cannelures (jacketed) or crimp grooves (cast) so you can apply a roll crimp for full power loads with H110.

I think your uncannelured bullets must be plated instead of jacketed. Save them for light plinking loads with Unique or some such fast or medium powder. Apply a light crimp to remove the flare and let them chamber smoothly but not enough to cause the case mouth to cut through the thin plating.

I guess you can put some crimp on your present 200 to let you get some use out of them but do not depend on them for anything important.

[zxcvbob]

Your seating die is also a crimp die if you screw it down farther. (probably a roll crimp) You need to crimp just enough to bite into the bullet jackets but not cut thru it. Either a light roll crimp or a heavy taper crimp will do this.

What powder are you using, and are these "hot" loads, or mild, or somewhere in between? A few slow-burning powders need a heavy roll crimp for good ignition. Some fast-burning powders if you load them hot need a heavy crimp to keep the bullets from jumping, but if you load them milder they don't need much of a crimp at all.

[spleify]

Thanks guys!

I am using H110, 240 grain jacketed hollow point, 23.8 grains.

[Doodlebugger45]

Eeew. Yep, H110 is true magnum stuff. Very slow burning meant for powerful loads. I hate to say it but I doubt you will get satisfactory results from that load when your bullet has no crimping groove. I would attempt to apply whatever kind of crimp I could, just to get SOME kind of bite on the bullet, but I have doubts as to how well it will work. I just hate to see that many bullets go to waste, but that's probably where you will end up. It never hurts to try it though. Some of those factory loads don't have much crimping and they work.

[zxcvbob]

That's gonna need a pretty good roll crimp.

[zxcvbob]

The worst case is not that bad: you end up pulling those bullets, dumping the powder back in the H110 can, and reload the bullets and primed cases using something like HS-6 or Blue Dot or Herco.

[Russ5924]

And Never load that many with out trying some first. I will load about 20 and if they are OK I load 50. Then and only then will I load a few hundred and if you change something start over again. You got some bad info did you get it on here?????

[spleify]

Well I have definitely learned a lesson here. I am just very fortunate no one got hurt.

Russ I did not get that info here is was some one local to me that is supposed to know what they are talking about.

Thanks again for all of the help folks, what a great site, I am so glad I found this place!!

Spleify

[spleify]

So I thought I would give an update.

Last week I went ahead and used my seating die to put a crimp on the rounds I had made. I went to a local shooting range to test them, no luck unfortunately. It wasnt enough of a crimp and the bullets still came unseated and moved forward. I went ahead and fired all the rounds loading one at a time, I was there for quit a while. I fired all but 6 or 7 rounds. Sooo, I ordered a digital scale, and a factory crimp die and a taper crimp die( just so I would have it). I took apart the 6 or 7 unfired rounds I had, and for grins I checked the weight of the powder, it was 28 grains!!!! Max load is 23.8, I was trying to load 22.8(Nosler book, 240 grain bullet, H110). Holy crap, huh??? Another valuable lesson there, don't trust the Lee powder measures, MAKE SURE YOU DOUBLE CHECK WITH A SCALE AND ADJUST ACCORDINGLY!!!!!!

So today I loaded up some new rounds, I picked up some Hornaday 240 grain HP, and made sure these ones had a cannelure. I checked, double checked, and tripple checked my charge and made sure they were right on. I put a beautiful roll crimp on them with the Lee FCD. I am really happy the way these turned out, and I am excited to see how these work for me.

Again I must say thank you all for all the help, and advice. I learned some valuable lessons here, and the biggest one is to check, check and check everything multiple times.

Thanks for all the help

Spleify