Coyotes & Mtn lions

[Paul Fitz Jones]

On my ranch in a Northern California forest I lost 6 dogs, 4 cats and 40 prize goats. I trapped, called and had a neighbor dump his pig butchering guts out a hundred yards from my bedroom window and I nailed 26 coyotes. My small yorkie female was not bothered and twice at night she stood off two mountain lions that were holding my cat in their mouths. I saw three pairs of eyes in the dark calculated where the rear of the lion was and sent him a load of buckshot and they screamed off into the night until their screams faded into the distance. I sewed up a hole in the side of the cat and the second time his meow came out the hole in his throat.. It took three of us with towels to hold him down but hafter that he went psychotic screaming constantly so we had to put him down. A 6mm Remington with a 90 grain 3,000 fps load did wonders on a coyote. I got the first Mtn Lion Kill permit after a long hiatus in California after I shot a lion in my front yard with his jaws around the throat of a goat. The permits were only allowed in the state in the 70's after a child was killed.

[Bullwinkle]

I dont think the flat landers in this state understand the depth of the problem in certian regions.

Heard a second hand that was partially confirmed by a short newspaper story. From out of the Georgetown/Cool area a couple summers ago. Guy hears a comotion and comes out of the house just in time to see a cougar with his 100# german shepard in its mouth jump over 6 ft fence, never to be seen again.

If I lived close to the forrest around here I'd definately have 2 or 3 big Rodesian Ridgebacks loose in the yard to keep the kids safe.

[Dave R]

Its not just in rural CA, either. When I lived in Orange County, there were people on the east edge who lost pets to coyotes. And there were Cougar "encounters" every year. No fatalities, yet. I guess we'll have to wait for someone to lose their life to a Cougar before anything changes.

I once visited a 150-acre(?) preserve in OC, with a school group. Guided tour. The park ranger went on and on about how man is encroaching on the range of the Cougar, and they need many square miles of range to sustain themselves, etc. Later in the tour, he said at one point there were 12 radio-collared Cougars in this 150-acre preserve. So I asked if there were 12 Cougars in this little park, what were they sustaining themselves on?

You should've heard the blubbering and double-speak.

[KSFreeman]

Forgive my Eastern ignorance, but why can't you just shoot the stupid things? Are the predators protected out there? Soccermommies whining about how cute they are and such?

My uncles used to tell me me of large drives that netted hundreds of coyote skins. Why not the same thing out there?

[stinger]

Unless the laws in LaLa Land differ from the rest of the United States, you have the right to whack those bastards without a permit. They are destroying your private property.

Have you ever seen South Park? "Look out, he's coming right at us!!!" Bang Bang!!!

Stinger

[Jay Baker]

Stinger, the laws in La La Land (Kalifornia) ARE different. In 1972, the left wingers who were even at that time, taking over the government, media, education system, etc., got a law passed establishing a moratorium on taking any mountain lions. There were a few exceptions, such as a lion attacking livestock, but that was about it.

Then, when the moratorium was set to expire, in about 1992/'93, the communistnazi animal rights geeks, in collusion with the above mentioned entities that fully controlled Kalif. by that time, got the required signatures on a State Initiative to BAN FOREVER, any taking of mountain lions, and with the communistazi controlled media behind it, the Initiative passed on a statewide vote. No more killing of mountain lions... FOREVER.

So, FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES, even self defense is outlawed. ("So, you shot that poor little mountain lion 'cause you SAY he was going to attack you, huh. So where are his teeth marks on you?? None? Well, off to prison for you, you filthy serf.")

Now, with no controlled hunting, there are thousands of mountain lions running all over Kalif., and they're having a field day with domestic animals, wild game, farm & ranch animals, and in some cases already, people.

(Just another reason I left Kalif. , after 35 years.)

J.B.

[Mike in VA]

Permit?? Shoot/Shovel/Shut-up.

[Erich]

"What mountain lion?! Mountain lions wouldn't come this close to people! You must be crazy. Those noises? Those were firecrackers . . . I'm a patriot."

[Bullwinkle]

Last year a guy near hear was out turkey hunting. Unfortunately there was also a cougar out hunting turkey that responded to this guys calling. He ended up shooting the cougar. He was on the hook big time, in jail for a while IIRC. He was not exonerated till they autopsied the cat and dug the shotgun wad out of the his chest. The authorities figured that was close enough for a resonable self defense claim.

I think the LEO and Fish and Game people up here in northern californie get it, and are pretty resonable about this kind of thing. I dont here about too many depredation permits getting issued. I think with most problem cats they want to hire a professional hunter to get the cat.

[BigG]

Maybe jes need open season on bunny huggers.

[stinger]

I think that it is hypocritical (maybe not the right word, but you know what I mean) to say that the mountain lions life is more important than 6 dogs, 4 cats, and 40 goats. Animal rights, ha. What about your animals' rights.

Californians take back your state. It is such a beautiful place and shouldn't be run by the morons in charge.

Stinger

[Art Eatman]

Mountain lions in LaLa Land? The deal is, "Shoot, butcher out the backstraps and hams, shovel and shut up."

Lion is some of the best meat there is. After you cut and wrap, mark it "Lamb".

, Art

[KSFreeman]

Protecting predators? That figures. I'm glad we killed ours off before such silliness could be codified here.

What about coyotes? Are they protected too? I don't understand all the whining.

If not, get a drive organized and start killing.

[scotjute]

What several articles from hunting magazines are stating is that we need to reinstitute limited hunting on these big predators not only to keep their numbers in check, but also to reinstitute the fear of man into the population. If they never have any thing to fear from man, their natural instincts will take over. The result is that either they recognize us as predators after them and fear us, or they brand us as "food". By taking away the even limited hunting season on big predators, they will lose their fear of us as a powerful predator after them and simply brand us as "food".

People who abolish hunting of predators are setting up men, women, and children to be killed and eaten in the years to come by these predators (to say nothing of livestock/pets). As the predators prefer to prey on the weaker prey, expect women and children to be their preferred victims.

[swsurgeon]

Another unanticipated negative effect of the lion hunting ban is the devastation of the Nelson Desert Bighorn Sheep. The herds were starting to make a comeback until the lion population was permitted to explode. Rangers in Anza-Borrego State Park (soon to be Anza Park when a lion eats the last Borrego) have told me that they'd like to see a lion trapping program instituted to maintain a sustainable Bighorn population. Unfortunately, it isn't politically feasible.

[jimsbowies]

The way I view this is that the human came into the coyote or mountain lion's domain...not vice versa.

So live with them...you have no right to summarily execute them in my humble estimation.

[stinger]

You are 100% right, jimsbowies,

Just remember, next time you are in lion country and you catch one gnawing on your little girl's leg, it was your fault for being there. Do not draw, do not shoot!

Go home and live with the fact that you invaded this beautifully wonderful animal's territory and are lucky you only lost a kid.


There has never been a place that man has been that animals did not inhabit first. No one has said anything about just going out and executed them, like the buffalos once were. What we are saying is that if they are killing/destroying your family or property you should be allowed to light their sorry pelts up.

Have you ever hunted? That deer/rabbit/squirrel/whatever was there before you, deal with it. Have you ever run over anything in your car (even a bug) well guess what, they were there before you were.

Are you a member of PETA or something.


Stinger

[jimsbowies]

Damn man....provide someone with a friendly reminder of where they are and get flamed....

Hmmmm, me? Vietnam Vet....and not a strap-hanger....Phoenix program....ex-cop..quit after I took down the last bad guy who shot at me...master class shooter...six shots to center of mass...he's pushing up daisies..

Ex-hunter....no sport....would consider bambi-busting again if somehow the deer had a gun and could shoot back......

Sir, I am right of Attila the Hun.....consider human beings the ultimate target....and your point it?

[swsurgeon]

I agree with the statement that we should learn to "live with them." However, the idea that the outdoors is "their domain" and that we don't have a right to be there too is not one I can subscribe to. I don't want to see them wiped out---that would be a tragedy---but I do think that a properly regulated hunting season would benefit wildlife in general and decrease lion/human conflicts.

[hitnthexring]

I agree with you. But anytime you take any bloodthirsty human to task for needless killing of animals, you will always get flamed by another bloodthirsty human. These same people see nothing wrong with bullfighting, fox hunting, cockfighting, or pit bull fighting.

[swsurgeon]

I'm not talking about "needless". And that's a pretty big jump to try to tag those who disagree with you as supporters of animal fighting.

[Quartus]

I guess we'll have to wait for someone to lose their life to a Cougar before anything changes.

Dave, where have you been? It's already happened several times. One in Orange County. Can't remember the name of the park - it's up Ortega Hwy before you get into the canyon. Child was killed by a cat.


For those that 'think' we should 'live with them', I suggest you get a few facts under your belt. The mountain cats in Califoria are a serious menace to humans and animal populations. The sheep were mentioned, but they are not the only ones. Like the deer in the North East, the populations are exploding because of such asinine emotionalism, to the detriment of both human and animal populations, and, of course, to the detriment of the very animal that the non-thinkers want to protect.

Similar problems exist with coyotes in some areas. And neither the cats nor the coyotes are anywhere near being in danger of extinction. But if they are not brought under control, other species WILL be.


Oh, Erich, firecrackers are illegal in California, too.

[swsurgeon]

I think we have a similar opinion but a different definition of "live with them." By "live with them" I mean that we should not hunt them to below sustainable populations. However, I certainly believe that hunting and self defense should be permitted.

There was also a human kill not far from Palm Canyon Campground in Anza-Borrego. And another in Cayamuca Park. A Park Ranger told me about them, but they never made the papers.

[stinger]

I don't think that anyone in this thread has suggested hunting the cats to extinction. The point is that as their numbers rise, the risk of attack or property loss to these animals grows substantially. As others have said, they are losing their fear of man, which I hope you can see is a bad thing.

I apologize if I hurt somebody's feelings. But I think that myself and my own are much more important than a cougar. If I saw the world's last panda attacking my wife/son/friend/other, and I had a rifle in my hand I wouldn't hesitate for one second to drop the bear.

Would you not do the same???????????


Stinger

[Quartus]

I don't think that anyone in this thread has suggested hunting the cats to extinction.

Nor even trophy hunting just for the sake of trophy hunting. I have no use for that. Big cats are my favorite wild animal.


But the populations need to be managed and people have a right to defend themselves against attack, and should not have to worry about commiting a felony to do so.