Green Dot For 45ACP

OverPressure · September 13, 2014, 06:15 PM

I posted some data yesterday on a Green Dot Load for 45ACP that was less
than desireable Basically what i was getting was 795 to 745 fps with 5.2gr
of Green Dot. Slam Fires data indicates a wide chrono range as well!!!

I have been shooting, Clays Standard 4.2 gr with a SNS 200 gr semi wad
cutter. The Green Dot load above was SNS 200 SWC as well.

This morning I loaded 5.6 gr of Green Dot , SNS 200gr SWC , but i used
a 3/4" square of paper towel,lightly pressed over the powder with a pencil,
and then put the case back in the press and incerted the bullet and crimped
it! I loaded 25 of these and then I loaded 25 using cotton for the wadding.

Off to the range. The paper towel wadded Green Dot Loads Chronoed at
2 at 900fps, 1 at 905 fps , one at 920 fps and 1 at 926 fps.

The Cotton wadding Chronoed at 2 at 880 fps, 2 at 897 fps and one at
900 fps.

In yesterdays post i mentioned the accuracy of my Clays loads at 25 yards
and the consistancy at which they chronoed. 845 to 855 fps. Clays is unavailable and i am trying all kinds of not so popular powders , on the periphial,
of what used to be common place to 45ACP reloaders.

So you guys with good eye sight that have Green Dot should be able to get accuracy and a consistant Chrono. This load is a little hotter than what i am used to
so when i warmed up at 25 yards 5 out of the first 10 were high. They
were also the paper towel wadding. Then i settled down and was getting
4 inch grouping.

This morning i tossed down a double shot latte paid bills and loaded ammo,
kind of a zoom around morning. I wasn't quite as steady, free standing no rest. I am 68 , my eyesight isn't what it used to be.

I am using a Lees Classic reloader so i don't have an auto disk that would
give me 5.4 gr or that would be my next load to try to get this thing down
to 850fps. But i have some ideas to try to lower it a little more using the
auto disk. I always keep the powder dispenser full for a consistant weight
of the disk port.

Anyway Until Clays is back in the stores i will be loading the 8 lbs of Green
Dot i have, along with the IMR 800X IMRPB, Tightwad, Tightgroup, Win 231 and everything else i hate!!!

Slamfire · September 13, 2014, 07:08 PM

I purchased a couple of pounds of estate sale Green Dot. It was a cardboard container of Green Dot, I assume it is late 70’s to early 80’s. It is old enough that the shiny tinned metal bottom has a small number of rust spots. The powder did not smell ether or bitter, I did not see any red, and I shot it up as quickly as possible as I believe it was at the end of its shelf life.

Green Dot works well in the 45 ACP. I am trying to standardize on 230 LRN or 230 FMJRN as these rounds feed perfectly and are plenty accurate for my purposes. I did not test any 200 grain lead bullets. With 230 LRN's, my M1911’s functioned every time with a 700 fps 4.5 grain load. That load had very little recoil and yet clustered well. I judge the accuracy of the ammo by the clustering on my 25 yard gong target. Since I shoot offhand my accuracy is highly variable compared to someone shooting off sandbags. I can say that Green Dot has accuracy potential as it clustered well, but I cannot say that it is any more accurate than any other powder.

Green Dot must be just a little slower burning than Bullseye as 5.0 grains of Green Dot gave me the same velocities as 4.5 grains Bullseye. Green Dot is still a fast burning powder.

I fired my loads in two different M1911’s and I was glad to see that the velocities were similar between the pistols.

Some people are ultra fussy about clean burning powders. I am not. I cannot say Green Dot is a “clean” powder as the wind was whipping through around 15 mph. Any residue in the air was gone before I could see it. My M1911’s cleaned up as usual, but I have must have a higher tolerance about residue than the clean crowd.

I like my practice ammo to be just around 800 fps, or less, and I shot up the rest of my Green Dot with a load of 230 LRN, 5.0 grains Green Dot. I am not looking to replace any of my favorite pistols powders of Bullseye, Unique and 2400 with Green Dot. I am also not looking to add more Green Dot to the collection. But I won’t turn down Green Dot if I get it at a great price as it shoots well in the 45 ACP.

Kimber Custom Classic

230 gr LRN 4.5 grs Bullseye 99' & 2005 mixed lot Mixed Brass WLP (brass)
16-May-09 high 83 °F OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"
Ave Vel = 805.2
Std Dev = 38.07
ES = 136.9
High = 912.4
Low = 775.5
N = 24

230 LRN 4.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F

Ave Vel = 708 fps
Std Dev = 12
ES = 40
High = 727
Low = 687
N = 9
accurate, little high, mild recoil

230 LRN 5.0 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F

Ave Vel = 802fps
Std Dev = 19
ES = 61
High = 841
Low = 780
N = 15

230 LRN 5.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F

Ave Vel = 873 fps
Std Dev = 30
ES = 88
High = 922
Low = 834
N = 11

M1911 Springfield Armory 5” Kart Barrel

230 LRN 4.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F

Ave Vel = 719 fps
Std Dev = 26
ES = 105.1
High = 771
Low = 665.9
N = 14
accurate, little high, mild recoil

230 LRN 5.0 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F

Ave Vel = 803 fps
Std Dev = 25
ES = 97
High = 867
Low = 770
N = 16
Accurate, centered

230 LRN 5.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F

Ave Vel = 853 fps
Std Dev = 29
ES = 116
High = 918
Low = 802
N = 15
very accurate, centered

Real Gun · September 14, 2014, 09:09 AM

I would start over by verifying the weight of each load. It might not be the powder that is the operative variable here.

rebs · September 14, 2014, 09:21 AM

would older powder be stronger or weaker than new powder ?

OverPressure · September 14, 2014, 10:06 AM

Read The First Post

**Mike Irwin** · September 16, 2014, 08:53 AM

According to some relative burn rate charts, Green Dot is only slightly slower than Bullseye, and is faster than 231, Accurate 2, and even Trail Boss.

Other charts have it being SLOWER than 231.

Take your pick as to which you like, and remember that burn rate charts really don't mean squat.

totaldla · September 16, 2014, 09:59 AM

I wonder if that rather wide ES would tighten up if you used a standard primer instead of the WLP?

**Mike Irwin** · September 16, 2014, 11:28 AM

The WLP is a standard, not magnum, pistol primer.

I'm not even seeing that Winchester offers a large pistol magnum primer anymore.

CowTowner · September 16, 2014, 01:54 PM

Quote:

I'm not even seeing that Winchester offers a large pistol magnum primer anymore.

Mike, they don't.
WLP primers are for both standard and magnum large pistol loads.
I use them for 10mm, .45 ACP and .41 Rem Mag with equal success. (Yes, they light H110 just fine)

OverPressure · September 16, 2014, 02:40 PM

Slamfire mentions using WLP primers!!! In my post i didn't mention primers
but was using WLP primers. I have been using WLP for my Clays Load, I have
Chronographed CCI LPP as well and they are close to WLP. The first time
I loaded the Clays Load I used CCI LPP magnum and they gave me an average of
880fps. Anyway so nothing was going on here that was giving me trouble keeping my velocity steady. My WLP Clays loads shoot at a consistant 850.
If you read the first post, you will know that many powders are now unavailable.

My post had to do with the poor performance with the first loads using
green dot at 5.2 gr. and about 50fps differnce and one that was 90fps
in a group of 5 i chronographed.

It is possible that magnum primers might change the performance, but
20fps i am dealing with now using wadding is livable!!! As I stated up
above, if i could auto disk 5.4 grains i think i would have my velocity down
to about 850, which is where i shoot best at 25 yards.

Win231 burns slower than green dot, no problem with the loads. They
accurate but i didn't chrono them.

I will shoot a few boxes at 5.6 gr and see if i can bring my accuracy in closer
to my clays loads.

I have had this problem before with a 38 special load using tightgroup.
I was having a blow over problem, where 8 or 10 rds per hundred didn't ignite
the power. Tightgroup is a fairly small volume powder, a little faster burning
than green dot. The 38 load was 3.8gr Tightgroup with a 125 gr. flat point
velocity consistant at 825fps. That was using a tissue wadding. Without the
wadding i had all kinds of varitation in accuracy and velocity, not to mention
the powder not igniting.

I don't own an accurate scale , but i do own a chrono graph. I usually shoot
action every week so i am loading quite a lot and don't realy want to weigh
out powder to dial this in perfectly. I will play with some differnt wadding
who knows it may change things cotton slowed down the green dot load
20fps.

9/16/14 I took a box of 200gr swc with 5.6 gr greendot to the range.
shot 20rds . 5 at 10 yds, 4out of 5 3/4" group. Fired 15 at 25 yards.
10 in 3.5"group 5 were inside 5 inches. This round loaded at 5.4 grains
would be great for me. At 880 to 900fps it is a little fast for me. 850fps
would be great. I still am wresling with the increase in velocity, so
i wasn't too concerned about the 5 out of the group at 25 yards.

I fired 30 rds in an action format , most a 3 or 4" inches high!!! I either get used to the recoil or figure a way to load 5.4gr.

They , Whoever Is Holding Back On The Good 45ACP Powders, Can Get Them Back On The Shelf Yesterday!!!

totaldla · September 16, 2014, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

The WLP is a standard, not magnum, pistol primer.

No, it is definitely a magnum primer. It is the same "hotness" as the CCI350.

Magnum primers aren't dangerous at all, but sometimes they can cause an increase in ES. Switching back to a standard primer, (Federal 150, Remington 2 1/2, CCI300,etc.), will result in a tiny velocity loss, but a tighter ES.

**Mike Irwin** · September 16, 2014, 11:00 PM

I can't find anything on the web that points toward the WLP primer being of equivalent brisance to a magnum primer.

Jim Watson · September 16, 2014, 11:14 PM

The Winchester Large Pistol primer is labeled "For Standard or Magnum Large Pistol Loads." I think that is because they assume you will be using Winchester Ball powders which take a little extra flash to ignite well. I read that there is some aluminum in the mix.

I, too, once got some Green Dot cheaply. I was shooting most of my .45 in a revolver at the time and it left too much unburnt powder to get under the extractor for that. So I shot most of it in 9mm where it did well. I did get:
.45 ACP 200 gr SWC + 5.6 gr Green Dot = 892 fps in 5".
.45 ACP 185 gr JHP +6.4 gr Green Dot = 899 fps in 4.5"

**Mike Irwin** · September 16, 2014, 11:16 PM

Yep, I'm familiar with that wording...

It's staring up at me from the WLP primer packages on my loading bench.

To me it's always meant that it's somewhere between the two.

totaldla · September 17, 2014, 02:09 PM

I'm basing my statements on my chronograph results. I've compared CCI350 and WLP in 44 mag applications (ball powders H110 & Enforcer) and found them to be equivalent.

I've also chrono'd the difference between standard primers and WLP in 45acp and the WLP produces a slight increase in velocity and large increase in extreme spread - again with ball powder (Ramshot Silhouette).

So my conclusion is that WLP is definitely hotter than a standard primer and equivalent to the CCI350 (except for cup thickness).

By the way, I'm NOT saying that ES has anything to do with accuracy in handgun loads. I view ES as an indication of consistency in my load approach.

reloader28 · September 18, 2014, 11:43 PM

Sometimes the chrono numbers means consistancy and sometimes it dont.
Most guys go by the target and not the numbers in working up a good load.
Sometimes the most accurate load by far will have numbers way out there. Dont get hung up on it.

Personally, I never touch the chrono until I'm done with the load development and want to know if the speed is good. Everyone I know does the same.

BTW my most accuate loads were with G Dot and cast 200gr SWC. If I missed the 1" bullseye at 15 yds it was my fault.

totaldla · September 19, 2014, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reloader28

Sometimes the chrono numbers means consistancy and sometimes it dont.

What sort of Yoda-speak is that? The chronograph doesn't have opinions, it simply states facts. Who gives a flying intercourse how you work up a load? The subject was about WLP primers.

**Mike Irwin** · September 19, 2014, 08:27 AM

Let's keep it civil, please, Gentlemen.

rclark · September 19, 2014, 09:25 AM

Quote:

No, it is definitely a magnum primer. It is the same "hotness" as the CCI350.

I have not found it so. I tested loads (2400) back to back over a chronograph of CCI-300, WLP, and CCI-350. As others have found WLP is is closer to CCI-350 alright, but not the same as. Always get a few fps difference between the two with CCI-350 always on top (for example 1123fps for WLP and 1181fps for CCI-350). My two cents. Some powders you won't see much difference even between CCI-300 and CCI-350. For example, HS-6 I only got 20fps difference between the two. As WLP is between the two primers in hotness, I suspect, one would think they are the same....

Slamfire · September 19, 2014, 09:54 AM

Rifle cartridges give much lower SD’s and ES’s than my pistol cartridges. Something else to be considered, the more rounds you shoot, the more likely you are to encounter a “1 in 100” round. Pressures vary much more than any suspect, because we don’t have pressure gages as easy to use as our chronographs. Used to be that only factories had chronographs, so Gunwriters made entire careers writing out nonsense on case shoulders, case taper, differences in velocities between cases/powders, etc, because no one could check out their claims. Weatherby cartridges have weird shoulder shapes (double-venturi shoulder) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.375_Weatherby_Magnum, many magazine articles were written which lead to many rifles were sold, all on the premise that the double-venturi shoulder increased velocity. You can go through the vintage magazines and books from the 50's and 60's, it was all about velocity. Now we can buy inexpensive chronographs, so the sales hype about velocity has lessened because shooters can compare what they get through the tube versus factory claims. When the “improvement” is less than the hype, the word gets out quickly.

Anyway, short shot strings will invariably have tighter SD’s and ES’s than a data string with more rounds. Small data samples can be very misleading. I have shot enough Factory and my reloads to not get excited if the ES is around 100 fps. As you can see, factory gave 140 ES. After testing Blue Dot, and finding extreme spreads of 200 feet per second, that told me that Blue Dot was not appropriate for the cartridge combinations that I was testing. Accuracy was in some instances, good. But I don’t feel safe with wide pressure excursions, which give those wide ES’s.

Code:

M66-2 4" Barrel				
					
158 SWCHP +P Zero Brand 38Special 			

25-Mar-07 T = 75 °F
					
Ave Vel =	874.5		 		
Std Dev =	27.51		 		
ES  =	140.6		 		 
High  =	967.4		 		 
Low  =	826.8				
 N =	26				 


4" S&W M10-5							
								
125 Valiant BBRNFP 6.5 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 					
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F					
								
Ave Vel =	734	 						
Std Dev =	63.53				 			
ES	260				 			
High	829.6			 	 			
Low	569.5			 	 			
N =	18				 			
								
125 Valiant BBRNFP 7.0  grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 					
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F					
								
Ave Vel =	788.2	 						
Std Dev =	63.3				 			
ES	241.3				 			
High	926.7			 	 			
Low	685.3			 	 			
N =	12				 			
								
								
125 Valiant BBRNFP 7.5 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 					
22-Apr-06	T = 68 °F							
								
Ave Vel =	867.3	 						
Std Dev =	53.06				 			
ES	235.6				 			
High	959.7			 	 			
Low	724.1			 	 			
N =	25				 			
								
								
125 Valiant BBRNFP 8.0 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 					
22-Apr-06	T = 68 °F					
								
Ave Vel =	990.2	 						
Std Dev =	56.55			 	 			
ES	236.1				 			
High	1093				 			
Low	857.5				 			
N =	25

rclark · September 19, 2014, 12:05 PM

Quote:

short shot strings will invariably have tighter SD’s and ES’s than a data string with more rounds. Small data samples can be very misleading.

Absolutely. That is why my strings are 15 shots, and if I am really interested I'll go back and bump up to 30. Most times though 15 shots give me a good indication of where things stand. BTW, in revolver the ES must be below 70fps before I would even consider it. ES in the 20s (or lower) is where I like to be, and there are several powder bullet primer combos that get me there in the calibers I load. I don't shoot rifles much.

As for Green Dot in .45 ACP. I tested a bit with it in a revolver (don't have any 1911s) . I liked 4.5g under a 200g TC bullet for 855fps (ES of 82) out of 5 1/2" barrel BH. Oh, 5.0g of Bullseye under 200g TC bullet at 911fps (ES 31) was my 'goto' load. I've since moved on to 250g RNFP in .45 ACP for my revolver shooting.

OverPressure · September 19, 2014, 06:55 PM

Hey Guys

SD ES and BS all considered this a great round!!!

I shot My Colt Defender today with the 200gr. SWC and Green Dot 5.6 gr
at 25 yds. 6 inside 4 inch group. The rest inside 6 inchs. I am an old man
so a youngen with good eyesight could improve it.

I am pulling my action rds closer together as well, using the Defender.
6rds , 4 seconds , 3 targets , 30ft. 10" group!!! Hey, Stuff Happens!!!
Did 30rds. I Never Had This Much Fun Bowling!!!

I put the Chrono on the shelf last week and am just looking for results.
I don't hear of feel any recoil variations and my Gold Cup 5" is
shooting almost as well as it did with my Clays Load.

September 13, 2014, 06:15 PM	#1
OverPressure Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Location: Langley WA Posts: 66	Green Dot For 45ACP I posted some data yesterday on a Green Dot Load for 45ACP that was less than desireable Basically what i was getting was 795 to 745 fps with 5.2gr of Green Dot. Slam Fires data indicates a wide chrono range as well!!! I have been shooting, Clays Standard 4.2 gr with a SNS 200 gr semi wad cutter. The Green Dot load above was SNS 200 SWC as well. This morning I loaded 5.6 gr of Green Dot , SNS 200gr SWC , but i used a 3/4" square of paper towel,lightly pressed over the powder with a pencil, and then put the case back in the press and incerted the bullet and crimped it! I loaded 25 of these and then I loaded 25 using cotton for the wadding. Off to the range. The paper towel wadded Green Dot Loads Chronoed at 2 at 900fps, 1 at 905 fps , one at 920 fps and 1 at 926 fps. The Cotton wadding Chronoed at 2 at 880 fps, 2 at 897 fps and one at 900 fps. In yesterdays post i mentioned the accuracy of my Clays loads at 25 yards and the consistancy at which they chronoed. 845 to 855 fps. Clays is unavailable and i am trying all kinds of not so popular powders , on the periphial, of what used to be common place to 45ACP reloaders. So you guys with good eye sight that have Green Dot should be able to get accuracy and a consistant Chrono. This load is a little hotter than what i am used to so when i warmed up at 25 yards 5 out of the first 10 were high. They were also the paper towel wadding. Then i settled down and was getting 4 inch grouping. This morning i tossed down a double shot latte paid bills and loaded ammo, kind of a zoom around morning. I wasn't quite as steady, free standing no rest. I am 68 , my eyesight isn't what it used to be. I am using a Lees Classic reloader so i don't have an auto disk that would give me 5.4 gr or that would be my next load to try to get this thing down to 850fps. But i have some ideas to try to lower it a little more using the auto disk. I always keep the powder dispenser full for a consistant weight of the disk port. Anyway Until Clays is back in the stores i will be loading the 8 lbs of Green Dot i have, along with the IMR 800X IMRPB, Tightwad, Tightgroup, Win 231 and everything else i hate!!! Last edited by OverPressure; September 14, 2014 at 03:41 PM.

September 13, 2014, 07:08 PM	#2
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	I purchased a couple of pounds of estate sale Green Dot. It was a cardboard container of Green Dot, I assume it is late 70’s to early 80’s. It is old enough that the shiny tinned metal bottom has a small number of rust spots. The powder did not smell ether or bitter, I did not see any red, and I shot it up as quickly as possible as I believe it was at the end of its shelf life. Green Dot works well in the 45 ACP. I am trying to standardize on 230 LRN or 230 FMJRN as these rounds feed perfectly and are plenty accurate for my purposes. I did not test any 200 grain lead bullets. With 230 LRN's, my M1911’s functioned every time with a 700 fps 4.5 grain load. That load had very little recoil and yet clustered well. I judge the accuracy of the ammo by the clustering on my 25 yard gong target. Since I shoot offhand my accuracy is highly variable compared to someone shooting off sandbags. I can say that Green Dot has accuracy potential as it clustered well, but I cannot say that it is any more accurate than any other powder. Green Dot must be just a little slower burning than Bullseye as 5.0 grains of Green Dot gave me the same velocities as 4.5 grains Bullseye. Green Dot is still a fast burning powder. I fired my loads in two different M1911’s and I was glad to see that the velocities were similar between the pistols. Some people are ultra fussy about clean burning powders. I am not. I cannot say Green Dot is a “clean” powder as the wind was whipping through around 15 mph. Any residue in the air was gone before I could see it. My M1911’s cleaned up as usual, but I have must have a higher tolerance about residue than the clean crowd. I like my practice ammo to be just around 800 fps, or less, and I shot up the rest of my Green Dot with a load of 230 LRN, 5.0 grains Green Dot. I am not looking to replace any of my favorite pistols powders of Bullseye, Unique and 2400 with Green Dot. I am also not looking to add more Green Dot to the collection. But I won’t turn down Green Dot if I get it at a great price as it shoots well in the 45 ACP. Kimber Custom Classic 230 gr LRN 4.5 grs Bullseye 99' & 2005 mixed lot Mixed Brass WLP (brass) 16-May-09 high 83 °F OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469" Ave Vel = 805.2 Std Dev = 38.07 ES = 136.9 High = 912.4 Low = 775.5 N = 24 230 LRN 4.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469" 27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F Ave Vel = 708 fps Std Dev = 12 ES = 40 High = 727 Low = 687 N = 9 accurate, little high, mild recoil 230 LRN 5.0 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469" 27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F Ave Vel = 802fps Std Dev = 19 ES = 61 High = 841 Low = 780 N = 15 230 LRN 5.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469" 27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F Ave Vel = 873 fps Std Dev = 30 ES = 88 High = 922 Low = 834 N = 11 M1911 Springfield Armory 5” Kart Barrel 230 LRN 4.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469" 27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F Ave Vel = 719 fps Std Dev = 26 ES = 105.1 High = 771 Low = 665.9 N = 14 accurate, little high, mild recoil 230 LRN 5.0 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469" 27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F Ave Vel = 803 fps Std Dev = 25 ES = 97 High = 867 Low = 770 N = 16 Accurate, centered 230 LRN 5.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469" 27 Feb 2010 T = 48 ° F Ave Vel = 853 fps Std Dev = 29 ES = 116 High = 918 Low = 802 N = 15 very accurate, centered __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

September 14, 2014, 10:06 AM	#5
OverPressure Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Location: Langley WA Posts: 66	Weight and Age Read The First Post Last edited by OverPressure; September 14, 2014 at 03:46 PM.

September 16, 2014, 08:53 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	According to some relative burn rate charts, Green Dot is only slightly slower than Bullseye, and is faster than 231, Accurate 2, and even Trail Boss. Other charts have it being SLOWER than 231. Take your pick as to which you like, and remember that burn rate charts really don't mean squat. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 16, 2014, 09:59 AM	#7
totaldla Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2009 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 1,296	I wonder if that rather wide ES would tighten up if you used a standard primer instead of the WLP? __________________ Lee Auto Bench Prime Castor Oil Case Lube

September 14, 2014, 09:09 AM	#3
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	I would start over by verifying the weight of each load. It might not be the powder that is the operative variable here.

September 14, 2014, 09:21 AM	#4
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	would older powder be stronger or weaker than new powder ?

September 16, 2014, 11:28 AM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	The WLP is a standard, not magnum, pistol primer. I'm not even seeing that Winchester offers a large pistol magnum primer anymore. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 16, 2014, 02:40 PM	#10
OverPressure Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Location: Langley WA Posts: 66	Primers&BurnRate Slamfire mentions using WLP primers!!! In my post i didn't mention primers but was using WLP primers. I have been using WLP for my Clays Load, I have Chronographed CCI LPP as well and they are close to WLP. The first time I loaded the Clays Load I used CCI LPP magnum and they gave me an average of 880fps. Anyway so nothing was going on here that was giving me trouble keeping my velocity steady. My WLP Clays loads shoot at a consistant 850. If you read the first post, you will know that many powders are now unavailable. My post had to do with the poor performance with the first loads using green dot at 5.2 gr. and about 50fps differnce and one that was 90fps in a group of 5 i chronographed. It is possible that magnum primers might change the performance, but 20fps i am dealing with now using wadding is livable!!! As I stated up above, if i could auto disk 5.4 grains i think i would have my velocity down to about 850, which is where i shoot best at 25 yards. Win231 burns slower than green dot, no problem with the loads. They accurate but i didn't chrono them. I will shoot a few boxes at 5.6 gr and see if i can bring my accuracy in closer to my clays loads. I have had this problem before with a 38 special load using tightgroup. I was having a blow over problem, where 8 or 10 rds per hundred didn't ignite the power. Tightgroup is a fairly small volume powder, a little faster burning than green dot. The 38 load was 3.8gr Tightgroup with a 125 gr. flat point velocity consistant at 825fps. That was using a tissue wadding. Without the wadding i had all kinds of varitation in accuracy and velocity, not to mention the powder not igniting. I don't own an accurate scale , but i do own a chrono graph. I usually shoot action every week so i am loading quite a lot and don't realy want to weigh out powder to dial this in perfectly. I will play with some differnt wadding who knows it may change things cotton slowed down the green dot load 20fps. 9/16/14 I took a box of 200gr swc with 5.6 gr greendot to the range. shot 20rds . 5 at 10 yds, 4out of 5 3/4" group. Fired 15 at 25 yards. 10 in 3.5"group 5 were inside 5 inches. This round loaded at 5.4 grains would be great for me. At 880 to 900fps it is a little fast for me. 850fps would be great. I still am wresling with the increase in velocity, so i wasn't too concerned about the 5 out of the group at 25 yards. I fired 30 rds in an action format , most a 3 or 4" inches high!!! I either get used to the recoil or figure a way to load 5.4gr. They , Whoever Is Holding Back On The Good 45ACP Powders, Can Get Them Back On The Shelf Yesterday!!! Last edited by OverPressure; September 16, 2014 at 06:50 PM.

September 16, 2014, 11:00 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I can't find anything on the web that points toward the WLP primer being of equivalent brisance to a magnum primer. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 16, 2014, 11:14 PM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	The Winchester Large Pistol primer is labeled "For Standard or Magnum Large Pistol Loads." I think that is because they assume you will be using Winchester Ball powders which take a little extra flash to ignite well. I read that there is some aluminum in the mix. I, too, once got some Green Dot cheaply. I was shooting most of my .45 in a revolver at the time and it left too much unburnt powder to get under the extractor for that. So I shot most of it in 9mm where it did well. I did get: .45 ACP 200 gr SWC + 5.6 gr Green Dot = 892 fps in 5". .45 ACP 185 gr JHP +6.4 gr Green Dot = 899 fps in 4.5"

September 16, 2014, 11:16 PM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Yep, I'm familiar with that wording... It's staring up at me from the WLP primer packages on my loading bench. To me it's always meant that it's somewhere between the two. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 17, 2014, 02:09 PM	#15
totaldla Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2009 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 1,296	Chrograph results I'm basing my statements on my chronograph results. I've compared CCI350 and WLP in 44 mag applications (ball powders H110 & Enforcer) and found them to be equivalent. I've also chrono'd the difference between standard primers and WLP in 45acp and the WLP produces a slight increase in velocity and large increase in extreme spread - again with ball powder (Ramshot Silhouette). So my conclusion is that WLP is definitely hotter than a standard primer and equivalent to the CCI350 (except for cup thickness). By the way, I'm NOT saying that ES has anything to do with accuracy in handgun loads. I view ES as an indication of consistency in my load approach. __________________ Lee Auto Bench Prime Castor Oil Case Lube

September 18, 2014, 11:43 PM	#16
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	Sometimes the chrono numbers means consistancy and sometimes it dont. Most guys go by the target and not the numbers in working up a good load. Sometimes the most accurate load by far will have numbers way out there. Dont get hung up on it. Personally, I never touch the chrono until I'm done with the load development and want to know if the speed is good. Everyone I know does the same. BTW my most accuate loads were with G Dot and cast 200gr SWC. If I missed the 1" bullseye at 15 yds it was my fault.

September 19, 2014, 08:27 AM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Let's keep it civil, please, Gentlemen. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 19, 2014, 09:54 AM	#20
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Rifle cartridges give much lower SD’s and ES’s than my pistol cartridges. Something else to be considered, the more rounds you shoot, the more likely you are to encounter a “1 in 100” round. Pressures vary much more than any suspect, because we don’t have pressure gages as easy to use as our chronographs. Used to be that only factories had chronographs, so Gunwriters made entire careers writing out nonsense on case shoulders, case taper, differences in velocities between cases/powders, etc, because no one could check out their claims. Weatherby cartridges have weird shoulder shapes (double-venturi shoulder) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.375_Weatherby_Magnum, many magazine articles were written which lead to many rifles were sold, all on the premise that the double-venturi shoulder increased velocity. You can go through the vintage magazines and books from the 50's and 60's, it was all about velocity. Now we can buy inexpensive chronographs, so the sales hype about velocity has lessened because shooters can compare what they get through the tube versus factory claims. When the “improvement” is less than the hype, the word gets out quickly. Anyway, short shot strings will invariably have tighter SD’s and ES’s than a data string with more rounds. Small data samples can be very misleading. I have shot enough Factory and my reloads to not get excited if the ES is around 100 fps. As you can see, factory gave 140 ES. After testing Blue Dot, and finding extreme spreads of 200 feet per second, that told me that Blue Dot was not appropriate for the cartridge combinations that I was testing. Accuracy was in some instances, good. But I don’t feel safe with wide pressure excursions, which give those wide ES’s. Code: M66-2 4" Barrel 158 SWCHP +P Zero Brand 38Special 25-Mar-07 T = 75 °F Ave Vel = 874.5 Std Dev = 27.51 ES = 140.6 High = 967.4 Low = 826.8 N = 26 4" S&W M10-5 125 Valiant BBRNFP 6.5 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 9-Apr-06 T = 64 °F Ave Vel = 734 Std Dev = 63.53 ES 260 High 829.6 Low 569.5 N = 18 125 Valiant BBRNFP 7.0 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 9-Apr-06 T = 64 °F Ave Vel = 788.2 Std Dev = 63.3 ES 241.3 High 926.7 Low 685.3 N = 12 125 Valiant BBRNFP 7.5 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 22-Apr-06 T = 68 °F Ave Vel = 867.3 Std Dev = 53.06 ES 235.6 High 959.7 Low 724.1 N = 25 125 Valiant BBRNFP 8.0 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 22-Apr-06 T = 68 °F Ave Vel = 990.2 Std Dev = 56.55 ES 236.1 High 1093 Low 857.5 N = 25 __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

September 19, 2014, 06:55 PM	#22
OverPressure Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Location: Langley WA Posts: 66	Accuracy Hey Guys SD ES and BS all considered this a great round!!! I shot My Colt Defender today with the 200gr. SWC and Green Dot 5.6 gr at 25 yds. 6 inside 4 inch group. The rest inside 6 inchs. I am an old man so a youngen with good eyesight could improve it. I am pulling my action rds closer together as well, using the Defender. 6rds , 4 seconds , 3 targets , 30ft. 10" group!!! Hey, Stuff Happens!!! Did 30rds. I Never Had This Much Fun Bowling!!! I put the Chrono on the shelf last week and am just looking for results. I don't hear of feel any recoil variations and my Gold Cup 5" is shooting almost as well as it did with my Clays Load.