What the heck went wron

[Al Norris]

Originally Posted by Dennisp

I have relaoded for rifles for years but have just started loading for a .45 ACP which for some reason is quite different for me.

So, it's established Dennis is not a new reloader. Just new to loading handguns.

While I realize that this thread started in a different area of the board, we are talking about a loading issue here. If you are a reloader, I would think you would read the entire thread first, before you deign to give your opinion. Reloading is not a hobby for those that skip over the details. So why would anyone think they should give an opinion on something they haven't read or understood fully?

If saying this offends you, tough.

Now, as Tuttle8 suggested, let's move on.

[farnorthdan]

And that is what it can only be seeing as I was not present during the cartridge construction would be a double charge as the the load you are referencing for Titegroup is way below max....the only other thing it could be is a bad case that you missed while rolling them....

DS

[Dennisp]

OK I just got back from the bench and everything is shooting fine. I pulled all the other bullets and rechecked everything. Case sizes, head space, backed the loads back down to 4.2 and 4.3 of titegroup and seated new bullets to 1.247" which is .28" shorter then MAX COAL and taperered them to .470".

Why is it that in the Hogden section of me book and several other places it says COL is 1.220", but with the cases sizes it says the Max COL is 1.275"? I tried seating a bullet to 1.220" and it seated it way to far in the bullet, clear past the gas check; the case neck went on beyond the gas check.

[Powderman]

Dennis, a suggestion--Get yourself a few loading manuals. Also, since you are online, check out the manufacturer's loading data site.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[Shane Tuttle]

Why is it that in the Hogden section of me book and several other places it says COL is 1.220", but with the cases sizes it says the Max COL is 1.275"?

Your bullet's ogive may be different than the one's they were testing. Their OAL is the suggested length for the given load and bullet combo. I think your length is the safer way to go during test loads. And, from what you stated, it is seated too far at 1.220"...

[Dennisp]

Thanks everyone for the help, advise, and support. Powderman and Tuttle8 I hope I can pick your brains again in the future. I'm heading in a new direction in my reloading and venturing into a place you have never been is nerve racking. Knowing there are good people out that are willing to guide those and give advise is awsome. I truely appreciate it.

Dennis

[Shane Tuttle]

Thanks everyone for the help, advise, and support. Powderman and Tuttle8 I hope I can pick your brains again in the future. I'm heading in a new direction in my reloading and venturing into a place you have never been is nerve racking. Knowing there are good people out that are willing to guide those and give advise is awsome. I truely appreciate it

You can always PM if you want to ask questions in private, also. Otherwise, when you're needing a question answered, just use the search function on the toolbar. If you can't find the answer you're looking for, by all means crank up another thread.

[Alleykat]

Per Powderman and Occam, most likely culprit is a double-charge, which is easy to do with a powder that only requires 4.8 grains for a max load. I've seen folks double-charge .45ACP 230gr. bullets with 16 grains of AA#5. The results were not pretty.

I'm pretty sure that this even didn't really happen. Didn't the OP say that he was shooting a Kimber, and not a Glock? Everybody knows such things only happen with Glocks. Don't believe me? Ask Dean Speir!

[wncchester]

Dennis, you are ok, your load was ok. Just change the way you check things and it won't be repeated!

Don't know how you are processing your loading now but try it in a batch system:

1. Size, de and re prime, expand and set all your cases in a loading block, mouth up.

2. Charge them, a block at a time, still standing up. LOOK into each case, under a stong light, and visually confirm the powder column.

3. ONLY after that powder check, start seating and crimping.

[Dennisp]

That's good advise wncchester an that is kind of what I typically do until I charge them. I would charge all 50 and then seat the bullets. The lat batch I just did I charged and then seated a bullet right away so I couldn't make any mistakes. I didn't like it much that way, but I think I will try it one block at a time from here on out.

[DEDON45]

Yep... looks like a double charge. It's a good thing that the .45ACP is a low pressure (in comparison to others) chambering... and that the 1911 platform is a sturdy one.

I recommend that you choose a powder that is less dense... one that will overflow the case, or be obviously too full when a double charge occurs... Unique, Bullseye, etc. work well in the .45, but a double charge can easily slip by. I use HS-6... that darn near fills the case up to the bottom of the bullet when nearing max charges... very hard to miss a double charge with it.

As the other guys said, definitely get some loading manuals... and don't feel bad about this incident, just learn from it. I know (and have read about) some folks who reload that seem to never learn the basics, even after destruction of several fine firearms.

[C Bass]

Knock Knock the Hornady lead bullet is a SWAGED LEAD BULLET not a hard case Bullet! Well, you do what you do, but any resposible loader does not pluck a load out a book. You work up the load period. No excuses!

Knock Knock - what does a Hornady bullet have to do with this post? How do you know he did not work up a load?
If you go back and actually read the first post before jumping to conclusions you'll notice that he's using LaserCast bullets and he said he was shooting 5-shot groups to see what his gun likes. I assume that means he was working up the load but I don't know for sure - but I'm not jumping to conclusions.
Please read all posts and responses before posting your overly critical advice...No Excuses!

[Unclenick]

Dennis,

I'll toss out a ray of hope for not-your-fault. I had an overcharge of PB blow a case in a 1911 15 years ago. Like you, I got brass particles in the face and a visit to the doctor out of it. Very, very glad I was wearing my shooting glasses or the brass would have done permanent eye damage, I have no doubt. Brass blows out of the gaps between the slide ways and rails and around the ejector in that gun.

The gun was locked closed by the burst pressure, or at least too tight for the extractor to withdraw the case. It took pounding the front of the slide on the wood bench at the range to force it open and to get the burst case out, though in retrospect I should first have tried pulling the firing pin stop to see if letting the extractor slide forward would have released it? The remaining rounds in the magazine were blown down in and seriously dented and deformed. The grip panels cracked. The barrel was bulged a slight 0.003" just ahead of the chamber, so it was retired.

Several comments come to mind. In my case the overcharge was caused by a mechanical error in the powder measure on my progressive press, and I was loading too quickly to be checking the charge levels when I put those rounds together; the second half of the human error involved. The first was that I'd had the measure apart and a spacing ring fell out unnoticed by me. I found it on the floor immediately after the burst cartridge event. It had allowed powder to build up at the top of the drop tube and fall in with the rest of a normal charge.

Here's where I'll differ from the other comments you've gotten: First, your case doesn't look like mine did. Mine blew out the side where the unsupported part of the chamber in a standard 1911 barrel is. The metal looked like someone had shot a hole through it from the inside. The hole was peeled open with edges that were slightly curled back and ragged. It did not blow the head off. Your case not only separated at the head, but the edges of the metal are much cleaner than mine were. That suggests the metal was very weak there to begin with. Also, you didn't report the gun jamming or cracking the grips and your gunsmith didn't find a problem with the barrel, which suggests this happened at a substantially lower pressure than a double-charge produces.

Knowing that Hornady Frontier brass has a reputation for being softer than other brands—rifle shooters report its primer pockets getting loose early in the reload count—I would consider the earlier comments that you have no clue how many times that case was actually fired, much less at what pressures or in what chamber size? It was picked up at a range somewhere, and that's all you really know. Once-fired brass is available from military ranges because soldiers aren't allowed to reload their own ammo. Civilian and police ranges, on the other hand, are harder sources from which to guarantee collected brass has only been fired once. Most of it will have been, since reloaders try to pick their brass back up, but the range gods usually take a few. Some inconsiderate reloaders might even abandon brass they know they can’t safely use again, rather than collect it and dispose of it as they should.

Since your case has the appearance of a weak stress line separation, I'm suggesting it is possible that you did not over charge it, but that the brass was stretched by a prior hot load or otherwise weakened by past handling. Full auto extraction can be hard on brass and tends to stretch it if the cycle time is fast. If you inspect and find more Hornady cases from that lot you bought as once-fired, you might find something rarely seen in a .45 ACP, and that is a pressure ring. Straighten a paperclip and bend the end over to form a hooked probe and use it to feel the case walls back near the head. Feel for an dip next to the inside of the head that indicates a thin spot that goes all around the case. That would be a stretched pressure ring that could break under the pressure of even a normal load if it is thin enough.

I would also suggest even after probing that you get rid of any other Hornady brass you got in that lot. The may well have the same history of mistreatment. Check the case lengths for stretching, if you haven't already. .45 ACP brass normally shrinks half a thousandth or so with each reloading cycle, and one that has grown indicates it has been subjected to unusual handling or very high pressure. One that is shorter than others of its same brand has possibly been reloaded many times, but that is hard to tell. Normal case length variance equals the change caused by quite a number of reloadings.

None of this is to say you should not redouble your care with loading. That always pays. Since you use a single-stage press, always charge the cases in a loading tray and when it is full, tap it to level the powder and shine a flashlight in to check all the charge levels under the same light. Make an intentional double charge at least once (put it in a particular corner that you always use for the purpose so you can’t lose track of it). Let yourself see what it looks like compared to the others, then carefully empty and recharge it just once before putting a bullet in.

Just to add to your general information, the load you used generates 16% more pressure than the old standard military hardball load of 5.0 grains of Bullseye, even though it creates no more velocity. QuickLOAD suggests 4.4 grains of Tightgroup would match the peak pressure of 5.0 grains of Bullseye, but would lose you about 50 fps in velocity.

You are correct to be concerned with not getting a bullet deep in the case. Just an eighth of an inch deeper seating can raise even the 4.4 grain Tightgroup load to .357 magnum pressure levels. You need especially to ensure lead bullets are not pushed deeper into the case on loading or by the magazine housing recoiling against their noses. That is because lead bullets are lubricated and push in easily. You can often do that with your thumb if the case is not crimped.

The crimp fixes that. The standard taper crimp should dig into the lead bullet a little so it forms a step in the bullet that prevents it being pushed deeper in. Each time a case is reloaded, the brass work-hardens a little more. If it gets hard enough it will springs back enough after resizing to grip a bullet only weakly if at all. Remington .45 ACP cases are particularly famous for this.

Also, as long as it fits in your magazine and feeds, you are not obliged to limit yourself to the SAAMI maximum COL. I have put up the image below before. The third from the left is headspacing on the bullet, so it exceeds 1.275” in most chambers. It is how I determine seating depth for my loading. With round nose bullets it may not work in your particular gun, but with the shorter semi-wadcutter shapes it will. I recall it knocking 40% off the group sizes I got from swaged SWC’s. Another board member PM’d me recently to report it also stopped leading in his gun.



W231 and HP38 are the same powder from the same plant packaged with different brand names. 5.2 grains of it will produce the same pressure as 5.0 grains of Bullseye with your bullet.