A funny Coonan Story.

[Deja vu]

So earlier today I was visiting my brother in the Boise area. He asked if I would bring a few hand guns for him to try out (read my sig: most of my hand guns are 357 magnums). One of the ones I brought is the Coonan.

Any way we get to the range and I realize that you can only use factory ammo (range rule) so I go to the counter and ask for 357 magnum. The guy looks at my Coonan (guess he just ignored the revolvers that my brother was carrying) and hands me a box of 357 sig. I tell him that I want the magnum ammo and he looks at me like I am an idiot. He says that 357 magnum is for revolvers and tries to ring me up for the sig ammo. I then pull out the mag from my Coonan (it was unloaded per the rules of the store) and show him a 357 sig wont fit in the magazine. He then tells me he does not have any 38 super ammo.

At this point my brother (who is much quicker tempered then me) in a frustrated tone say "just sell us the d#@$ 357 magnum ammo" The clerk gets a little snippy and says that he wont take refunds on the ammo once I pay for it.

I get 3 boxes of the ammo (142 grain Fiocchi) and walk in to the range where my brother and I start shooting.

[gyvel]

Sounds like this guy belongs in the "People who shouldn't own guns" genre.

[NoSecondBest]

Sounds like this guy belongs in the "People who shouldn't own guns" genre

We only know for a fact that one of them even owns a gun. Maybe the guy behind the counter doesn't own any.

[g.willikers]

He's probably a member of the Often Wrong, But Never in Doubt Club.
You should have educated him so he could go around saying,
"Boy, guess what I saw today."
Might have been the most exciting thing that happened to him all day.

[Hook686]

Quick judgements without sound education are not limited to folks behind the gun counter.

[gyvel]

Maybe the guy behind the counter doesn't own any.

That's whom I was referring to...

And let's hope he doesn't.

[Yung.gunr]

I would say this falls into the mind your own business category. Guy wants to buy ammo, sell him the ammo he asks for. Some people let their job go to their head. Obnoxious!

What is the saying "It's better to remain silent and let people think you are stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

[44 AMP]

In (partial) defense of the clerk, he didn't get snippy first, and likely he's had more than a few dealings with people who didn't know the correct caliber for their gun. I myself have over the years seen more than a handful of people ask for ".38s" not knowing that everything that starts with 38 is not the same.
Also .22s.

It is a bit more common, however, the situation like you describe. The clerk has some knowledge, and is trying to help the idiot who wants the wrong ammo...

You did miss an opportunity to educate the clerk that about how autopistols that shoot the .357 Magnum revolver round have been with us for 30 years now, and you just happen to have one!

Even those supremely convinced of their own infallibility have a tough time arguing when you are standing there with the physical proof in your hands! Of course, some still will, for them, there is no hope...

I am a bit surprised to hear of a range (in Idaho?) that only allows factory ammo. What do they do, inspect everyone's ammo boxes?

I know ranges that prohibit certain types of ammo, for real reasons (AP, Tracer, etc.) such as the risk of damage to targets or risk of fire, etc.

Guess if you have a wildcat you can't shoot on that range? I don't think I would patronize such a place, but that's just me.

Sad fact of life, un/underinformed "experts" abound. Saw a guy at a show once, had "one of the first Desert Eagles" on his table. Also had a "factory" 10rnd (spare) mag with it. The gun was a .44Mag, NOT one of the first .44s, which I pointed out to him, showing him the visual differences. And while the 10rnd mag probably came from some factory, it didn't come from Magnum Research, as it was unmarked, had no witness holes, and was in the white.

The fellow was nice enough (and I tried to be as well), admitting he didn't know, and was only repeating what he was told by the guy he got the gun from. And, he did change his claims about the gun & mag. I put it down as a small win...

[SpareMag]

Just how DOES the Coonan chamber a rimmed cartridge? I can't even figure out how the rounds would fit in a magazine....

[burrhead]

"Just how DOES the Coonan chamber a rimmed cartridge? I can't even figure out how the rounds would fit in a magazine...."

All 22 and .32 ACP autos use rimmed cartridges. Well, the 32 is semi-rimmed. S&W 52s uses 38SPL wadcutters as do the National Matches converted by various gunsmiths in the 50s/60s for Bullseye shooting. Old technology.

[SpareMag]

Burrhead...

Hmmm... Have to check my 32s now. I am curious. Dumb of me not ro notice thet were rimmed...

[44 AMP]

Chambering a rimmed case is actually a fairly straightforward process. The really significant difference from rimless cases (and if you check the specs you will see that most "rimless" cases actually have a few thousandths of rim extending beyond the case body) is the magazine.

Rimmed rounds in the magazine must be loaded with the rim of the upper round in front of the rim of the round below it. This leads to more than a bit of taper or angle to the magazine, but not too much to fit into a pistol grip.

That and a bit of design difference to the mag feed lips is essentially all there is to it.

As noted, its done all the time with the .22LR which is definitely a rimmed case.

The early Browning designed cases (.25, .32, & 38 auto) are called "semi rimmed", because there is a small projecting rim that extends beyond the case body diameter. At the time, it was believed to be needed for the case to headspace on. This proved not to be the case, and his last case design, the .45ACP is a true rimless case.

[Sevens]

The topic of the Coonan magazine and how it feeds rimmed cartridges (so WELL!) is really of interesting historical note. Dan Coonan designed that magazine when he was a college student in Minnesota. He built it such that the follower has a variable angle depending on how far down in the magazine it happens to be. He designed and built that magazine as a college project and he received credits for doing that -- he had no handgun that actually used the magazine... the magazine came first. He later designed the handgun and got the same amount of college credits for it.

The Coonan magazine is not just another pistol magazine.

[barefoot]

OK, here's my addition to the discussion, which may or may not have value.

Though I don't have a Coonan, I've had some experience with .22 autoloaders and it seems like the case heads go ever so slightly left-right-left-right - as if there is just enough space at the back of the magazine to allow that - since the .22 rims don't cause any curvature in a 10-round magazine.
Now the 25-round banana mags obviously have a pronounced curvature, so my suggestion wouldn't apply there.

Anyways, having not seen a Coonan mag, I thought he may have designed it that way, but the variable-angle follower would be just as neat.

Edit: My wondering would apply to the .357 and .44 magnum DE, as well - how do THEY solve the rimmed-case-in-a-straight-mag dilemma?

[Sevens]

Some .22LR mags are different than others. The older generation of .22 magazines use a very sharp angle to put case heads in a defined position to avoid an issue -- you may notice if you have the access to tinker that every 2nd and 3rd Series Colt Woodsman and variant, every Browning Buck Mark and every Ruger MkII-MkIII-series (and the original that proceeded them except for the 22/45) uses the exact same angle & dimensions. The length of the magazine is different and it's connection point varies but the body angle and dimensions are fully compatible.

Newer generations of .22LR handgun magazines use the method you described where the case heads sit off-set from each other... the Ruger SR-22 and the GSG 1911-22 come to mind.

As to the Desert Eagle magazines...
There is some lost argument, discussion or drama that is not well documented somewhere out there that has one or more people LEAVING the Coonan operation and involved in the development of the Desert Eagle. The two handguns are absolutely nothing alike in any way whatseover... EXCEPT for the fact that both were semi-auto handguns chambered for the .357 Magnum. There is something there, but I don't know what it is or where to learn more of it.

[James K]

The semi-rimmed case is understandable if you recognize that Browning started with revolver cartridges (.32 S&W and .38 S&W) then, finding they didn't feed well, kept cutting the rim down until they worked well enough and still had enough rim to headspace. Sometime around 1906, he saw, or learned of, Luger's 9mm that headspaced on the case mouth. But Browning went Luger one better, making the .380 and .45 ACP straight cases, thus avoiding the feeding problems of Luger's tapered case.

Jim

[44 AMP]

Edit: My wondering would apply to the .357 and .44 magnum DE, as well - how do THEY solve the rimmed-case-in-a-straight-mag dilemma?

Actually, they solve it quite well. But, first off, lets get one thing "straight". The magazines are not "straight". NO ONE's pistol mags are straight up and down, they all lean "forward" a bit. The longer the case, compared to diameter, the more pronounced the "lean". Rimmed cases, with their need for the rims to be stacked upper round rim in front of lower round rim have more "lean" than rimless cases. Look at a .22LR pistol mag, for an example.

The Desert Eagle mags work pretty well, they are solidly built, and they have a deep "rib" pressed into the mag body on each side. This feature keeps lower rounds in the magazine from being able to move enough to "jump" rims and rimlock the magazine.

Other makers use a different approach. The Desert Eagle mag works well, BUT you must use it in the manner intended. It needs to "float" in the gun, meaning, do not put pressure on the magazine base when shooting. (no "cup & saucer" type hold). IF you cup the bottom of the mag when shooting, misfeeds will usually result. If you don't, (usually) they feed fine.

There are always exceptions, so I say "usually", but I've had 3 different DE's in the past 30 some years, 2 .357 and a .44, and they all worked exactly the same way in this regard.

I also have a Coonan Model A (one of the original 1500 produced), and while I have not shot it extensively, it has worked well for me.