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Old September 20, 2011, 01:19 PM   #1
Civil War Life
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Small base sizer .223 rem

I have read about using these dies but can't find out much about them. How are they different from a normal full length sizer? I have a set of Lyman dies for 223 and have found that a few cases will not drop all the way in my case gauge although they function fine in my AR 15. What will one of these dies do for me?

Thanks
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Old September 20, 2011, 01:52 PM   #2
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SB dies reduce the base about 3 thou smaller than conventional dies. If your ammo chambers well a SB die will do nothing good for you. Most of what you read about them, especially on the web, is BS.

Ref your case gage, you will be shooting your rifle, not the gage so that matters not.
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Old September 20, 2011, 04:04 PM   #3
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I've never needed them. I have shot my reloads in five different AR15s (1xBCM, 3xLMT and one RRA) and never had a problem. I started with Lee full length sizing die, and now use the RCBS X-Die for resizing.

I would only get the SB die if you find a problem with cartridges loading into your rifle chamber. Most likely you won't have a problem. The more you squeeze down the brass the more work hardened it becomes (brittle) and the less accurate it may be (depending on overall chamber/case dimensions).
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Old September 20, 2011, 05:02 PM   #4
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I don't have any firearms with chambers that are smaller than minimum spec, so they are a cure for a problem that I don't have and work brass more than needed. It is for this reason that I don't use them.

The cases that do not fully drop into your case gauge are likey due to the rim having a defect caused by the extractor. As the rim is inside the shell holder during sizing, again a SBD does not help the problem. The quick fix, if your casegauge is steel, is to insert the base of the case into the die and give it a twist. This will iron out any small defects.
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Old September 20, 2011, 05:41 PM   #5
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Some folks swear by them.

I have an unused set sitting on the shelf. Early on, I thought I needed them. Turns out in my case, my Lyman die couldn't adequately set the shoulder back. Once I found this out and changed dies, I have no need for the SBD.

I have to wonder how many people shift to SBD's when maybe something else is happening. Use a method to check your shoulder bump before you decide to change to the small base set.
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Old September 20, 2011, 05:54 PM   #6
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For ARs you prob won't ever need them. I have seen two automatic rifles that did and mostly they are an automatic thing
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Old September 20, 2011, 07:21 PM   #7
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Wncchester

Now you've started it.

Quote:
SB dies reduce the base about 3 thou smaller than conventional dies. If your ammo chambers well a SB die will do nothing good for you. Most of what you read about them, especially on the web, is BS.

Ref your case gage, you will be shooting your rifle, not the gage so that matters not.
However you are right, in a 5.56 AR you will most likely not need it (sloppy chamber). But in one that is certified to 0.50 MOA or less from the factory, YOU WILL, with a NM cert barrel you are going to find it very tight on the 223 side.



I messed around for 6 months trying to get my rounds to function properly, until Bushmaster told me to stop screwing around and get a Small Base die. I did a RCBS X-Small Base Full Lenth resizing die and have had no problems (none) with my reloads since I started using it.

As to the case length gauge, why would we want to use one when we could just PRAY that the bolt goes to full battery and that a round does not go off because the headspace on the case is off, what the hell it only costs a grand or more for one of these guns.



Actually it is just cheaper to do things right than wrong.
Jim
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Old September 20, 2011, 07:41 PM   #8
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What exactly is the difference at the base of the case between a .223 and 5.56 chamber? How is 5.56 "sloppy" compared to .223 at the point the SB die would make any difference? Or do you mean between milspec chambers and target chambers?
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Old September 20, 2011, 08:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Or do you mean between milspec chambers and target chambers?
That's a good way of stating it. You have 3 different chambers for the AR. The standard 5.56, the .223 and I am not sure how it is spelled, the Wylde which is between 5.56 and .223.

This explains it better:

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/556...Ch-t22582.html


Quote:
Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 mm "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues.
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Old September 20, 2011, 08:29 PM   #10
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"However you are right, in a 5.56 AR you will most likely not need it (sloppy chamber). But in one that is certified to 0.50 MOA or less from the factory, YOU WILL, with a NM cert barrel you are going to find it very tight on the 223 side."

Jim, you are correct but I was speading to CWL, not the world, and I'd bet the farm he isn't loading for a custom AR-15 with a tight match chamber. If that were the case it's unlikely he would have asked that question.

So far as making ammo carefully, what does making a cartridge that matchs a SAAMI gage made to insure a fit in every rifle ever properly chambered in that caliber make it better? IF we gonna strive to make our ammo right, it must be custom fitted to OUR rifle, not everyone else's. And to do that properly we need a cartridge "head space gage" that actually measures the fired cases so they can be resized to actually match our chamber. Hornady/Sinclair market case "headspace" tools that mount on a precision caliper and the RCBS Precision Case Mic and Innovative Technologies dial indicator tools let us see what we're doing to the thousanth. In that, they are very unlike the Wilson gage which simply says we're somewhere between SAAMI's minimum and maximum!

Again I say make the ammo match the rifle it will be fired in, not resized to sorta fit a fixed steel chamber gage that may or may not represent what the shooter's chamber actually is!

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Old September 20, 2011, 08:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Again I say make the ammo match the rifle it will be fired in, not resized to sorta fit a fixed steel chamber gage that may or may not represent what the shooter's chamber actually is!
I totally agree, I use the gauge to set my resizer to bump the shoulder to the correct SAMMI specs for the case and proper SAMMI head space. Then a dummy round is made and tested in MY rifle to insure everything is correct before I sit down and make a couple of hundred mistakes.

Like I said, I totally and unconditional agree with you. Just don't discount the gauges as tolally worthless. Most of my 223 brass is range brass shot by only G_d knows who. It is a fast way of checking that I am not out of the ball park on what is happening when I resize.

Jim
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Old September 21, 2011, 12:13 AM   #12
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wncchester, I know you the the rest mean well, and you are right most of the time, but there are some AR's (and not custom target chambers) that flat do need small base dies. Most do not...at least not in non combat scenarios.

I've owned several semi-autos that don't. But back Obama November, I bought a Remington R25. That's a DPMS-built, camouflaged AR-10 style, .308 chambered, semi-auto. Accurate as hell, but chambered really tight.

Factory Remington fodder can be shot as fast as you can pull the trigger, with no trace of misfeeds or other problems. Cheap blue box Federal fodder, only chambered the first round, then refused to feed the second round. Russian "Wolf" cheap stuff wouldn't even chamber the first round. Bolt would not close. My reloads that were carefully sized and shoulder bumped, slid right into my Wilson gauge. Unfortunately, they chambered about like the Federals. I called DPMS.....they said get an RCBS small base sizer and the problems will disappear.....they did.

Oh, and by the way, the bases are sized only .002", only .001" more than my regular sizer. That's not enough to worry about. Ejector damage from the Rifle will be the limiting factor for brass life, not sizing a miniscule .002". Shoulder bumping is way more damaging, so don't over do that.

You may never need a small-base die, by all means, buy a regular sizer, first. If that doesn't cut it, you will find a small-base sizer to be a God-send! Don't make the mistake of thinking that RCBS is stupid. They've been in this business longer than any other major reloading company.

One more thing. If you ever think you want to hoard AR ammo away for SHTF tomorrow, do yourself a favor and buy one of RCBS's new AR sets. They come with small-base sizers, and can guarantee that they will feed flawlessly in any AR. In that scenario, who cares whether you get 5 loads out of a case or 8....you will probably not even be able to pick up the brass anyway, running from zombies!
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Old September 21, 2011, 01:47 AM   #13
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Referencing the previous quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 mm "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues.
That in no way indicates the 5.56 is "sloppy" at the base of the case. That is leade from the bullet to the throat. Headspace has nothing to do with small base or regular resizing. You do not need small base dies just because it is a .223 chamber or a 5.56 chamber. And I believe any difference between SAAMI .223 cases dimensions and NATO 5.56 cas e dimensions are measured in the ten thousandths of an inch, hardly significant.

If your rifle has an undersized chamber at the base of the case area then SB dies may be necessary. But it has nothing to do with .223 versus 5.56, EXCEPT that target barrels with min spec chambers are more likely to be .223, but this does not mean that all .223 rifles have match grade chambers.
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Old September 21, 2011, 08:06 AM   #14
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That in no way indicates the 5.56 is "sloppy" at the base of the case. That is leade from the bullet to the throat. Headspace has nothing to do with small base or regular resizing. You do not need small base dies just because it is a .223 chamber or a 5.56 chamber
It is extreemly fustrating to take the time, travel and expense of reloading and going to a range 30 miles away only to have your reloads constantly jam in your rifle, get stuck and can not open the bolt, fail to eject, (no they were not over pressure) and have your rifle fail to go to battery every other round. I even purchased two complete sets of 223 dies thinking that would correct the problem (it didn't). Not untill I started using the X-Small Base die on all my 223 cases did the problem get corrected and have not had one failure (not one) in the last 3 years on over 2,000 cases.

You don't want to call it "sloppy" that's fine, you don't have these problems that's fine too. But if you do have them it is the best way to correct it.

Like I said, "it's cheaper to do it right than wrong".
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Old September 21, 2011, 08:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
in one that is certified to 0.50 MOA or less from the factory, YOU WILL, with a NM cert barrel you are going to find it very tight on the 223 side.
I have many firearms with "match" barrels and none require SBD's. If your chamber is below min spec I would have it opened up. I would have little use for a rifle that only functioned with "special" under resized brass. Really, what if you ever wanted to use factory ammunition?
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Old September 21, 2011, 09:58 AM   #16
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After reading all the above thoughtful posts I have come to the conclusion that it is indeed extractor dings that were the cause of the case not seating fully in the case gauge. At times I have used a fine file to smooth out the burr on the base and that seems to work fine. Thank you all for your kind suggestions and effort. It is appreciated.

Terry
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Old September 21, 2011, 10:29 AM   #17
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Quote:
I have many firearms with "match" barrels and none require SBD's. If your chamber is below min spec I would have it opened up. I would have little use for a rifle that only functioned with "special" under resized brass. Really, what if you ever wanted to use factory ammunition?
Your point is pertinent to my Remington "AR-10" as well. Especially in a SHTF case......but damn, it's sub-moa out of the box with good ammo.....to hell with Russian (or Federal) factory! We get addicted to those one-holers!

Beyond that admittedly less than perfectly sane attitude, my point is, small-base-sized reloads are closer to factory than reloads sized with regular dies....measure them. AND consider...those small-base-sized reloads are STILL bigger around than factory.

What that tells me is...small-base-sized self loaded ammo is more apt to chamber in ANY gun....and nearly as easy as factory, with minimal working of the brass, and I can keep putting 1/2" holes in targets with reloads easily feeding & chambering in my so-called underspec Remington R25.....what's not to like? If I want to chamber the Russian stuff, I can buy a gun chambered to Nato specs.

Last edited by GWS; September 21, 2011 at 10:42 AM.
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Old September 21, 2011, 01:05 PM   #18
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Quote:
Not untill I started using the X-Small Base die on all my 223 cases did the problem get corrected and have not had one failure (not one) in the last 3 years on over 2,000 cases.

You don't want to call it "sloppy" that's fine, you don't have these problems that's fine too. But if you do have them it is the best way to correct it.
Jim, I in no way was saying that SB dies should never be used. I was saying that with SAAMI specced chambers they should not be needed and in practice most guys seem to not need SB dies. There is absolutely no reason based solely on .223 versus 5.56 chamber that one should conclude SB dies are required.

If your personal firearm does not function with regular FL dies then of course try the SB dies. If that works great. But it seems a dis-service to others to say if it is chambered for .223 then you should use SB dies.

From the Sierra Bullet site:
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...ics/resize.cfm

Quote:
As we have noted, most conventional full length sizing dies reduce a case’s fired dimensions enough to allow the case to be easily rechambered, without bringing it down to its original, unfired dimensions. In some instances, this will not quite be sufficient to assure positive operation and functioning. This most often occurs in firearms that lack the camming power of a bolt action, such as semi-autos, pumps, and lever actions. Sierra has worked with a large number of these types of firearms that functioned perfectly well with conventional full length dies, and suggest resorting to small base dies only if they prove to be necessary. They do work the brass more, and will usually result in reduced case life. [bold added]
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Old September 21, 2011, 03:35 PM   #19
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It looks like the problem has been worked out. I don't use a case gauge. I use my chamber as a case gauge. I don't care if my ammo won't fit your rifle as long as it works in mine......
Wylde
Both of my match AR's have the Wylde chamber and it works very well.
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Old September 22, 2011, 12:07 AM   #20
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NWPilgrim's Quote of the Quote from the Sierra Manual and ExteriorBallistics.com
Quote:
...and suggest resorting to small base dies only if they prove to be necessary. They do work the brass more, and will usually result in reduced case life.
While I think the article this quote comes from is a great article that contains good info for people who want to reload for "gas" guns, the last phrase of this particular statement is unfortunate, because it's a blanket statement about reduced case life made without one shred of data to back it up. I'll bet them that a case will fail from Head separation, from neck splits, or from banged up case heads do to the violent feeding cycles and extractions common to semi-auto gas guns, LONG before a small-based die and it's miniscule .002" resize will cause retirement. That's a myth folks.

Wait....I don't have to bet them....they spell out what really kills brass themselves...the same website on another page! http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...aseinspect.cfm Start reading at "Case Inspection"

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Old September 22, 2011, 08:37 AM   #21
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"I totally and unconditional agree with you. Just don't discount the gauges as tolally worthless."

Ref. the Wison gage, don't let my poor writing skills make anyone think drop-in gages are worthless, that's by no means true. In fact, they are the only practical way we can confirm our remade ammo will fit/fire in any weapon it may ever be placed in. But, a universal fit only matters IF we expect our finished ammo to be passed around; drop-ins offer no help in custom fitting the ammo for an individual firearm but the other gage types do and that is my point.

Ref. SB dies, there is no reason for commercial makers of autoloaders to routinely produce tight chambers and they do NOT do so! Still, SB dies do have valid applications; a small number of rifles do need them to insure chambering, what I reject is the common 'wisdom' that ALL autoloaders/pumps NEED them!

Sure, there are situations in which SB dies can "fix" problems. But, while I can't prove it, I'm personally convinced that few autoloaders that seem to need SB dies actually 'need' them; almost certainly not for those with factory SAAMI chambers. What I mean is all things manufactored have a few thousanths of an inch range of tolerance, including dies and chambers. When the rifle's chamber is cut on the small side and the die's chamber is cut on the large size there may be difficulty. BUT, since there is as much variation in the dies as the chambers it's quite likely some other conventional die - even of the same brand - will perform quite well. Even ONE thousanth smaller makes a BIG difference in a metal-to-metal fit. And that's not a guess, I've seen it done. So, while a SB die WILL make sure our ammo will chamber, it's not always necessary to specifically use one to get the job done quite well. But that's not to say they are never needed at all - I may be dumm but I ain't dumm enough to say "never" or "all ways"!

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Old September 22, 2011, 09:40 AM   #22
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I've found that reloading 223 rounds can get very tricky. The rounds are small and the tolerances are very tight.
Depending on how your 223 rifle or pistol is chambered makes a lot of differnce. I've got 3 223 rifles. They range from loose (will shoot almost any ammo) to very tight (factory spec ammo only)
I bought a SB dies set to fix this problem and it didn't work. I did get a case gauge and found that very helpful. It takes an extra step after resizing the brass, but it's worth the extra time.
What I eventually traced the problem to a shell holder from one maker and a dies from an other. I've never had this problem with any other rounds but 223 is different.
Bottom line, forget the SB dies but match all of your reloading gear. If you're using RCBS; be sure your dies and shell holders are all RCBS. Same for Lee or what ever you are using.
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Old September 22, 2011, 05:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
I bought a SB dies set to fix this problem and it didn't work. I did get a case gauge and found that very helpful. It takes an extra step after resizing the brass, but it's worth the extra time.
For plinking and such most think its a waist of time, in competition most know it is mandatory. It comes down to what degree a malfunction will ruin your day.
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Old September 23, 2011, 11:19 AM   #24
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Quote:
I've never needed them. I have shot my reloads in five different AR15s (1xBCM, 3xLMT and one RRA) and never had a problem. I started with Lee full length sizing die, and now use the RCBS X-Die for resizing.
The best I can tell the rifles are not the problem. Commercial ammo works well in both my AR-15s. It is the dies. I purchased the Lee Pathfinder die set in 223, then purchased the Lee Deluxe die set in 223 to fix my problem, both sets did not fix my problems. This is for a .223/5.56 Bushmaster chamber. I then spent the extra money on a RCBS X-Small Base die after talking to Bushmaster directly about my problems. This did correct my problem. At that point I was ONLY using 223 spent cases for reloading and storing away any I found in 5.56 would/could not use them. Well you build up a lot of used 5.56 cases from range brass and I was getting tired of buying new 223 cases all the time. So out goes the order for the L.E. Willson gauge in 223. What I found is that the shoulders were not being bumped enough to give a proper fit. The solution was to bring my die down a bit till the case would fit in the gauge just right. Now I use 223 and 5.56 cases both without any problems. All cases are first run through the Small Base die, I can then run them through the Lee dies without lube and the cases will not get stuck (the case walls do not touch the die).

Since then, I purchased a second AR with a 5.56 barrel and a bolt action 223 rifle. Would they work without the Small Base die and gauge, probably but I don't care since I make all my rounds to fit in anyone of the three rifles. And they work without any jams, falure to feed or falure to eject.

If you don't have these problems save your cash, if you do then by all means get the equipment to fix your problem.

Jim
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Old September 23, 2011, 01:51 PM   #25
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What a small base die does is restore cases to factory ammo diameter. Most chambers are a few thou larger than minimum and standard dies reflect that. Use the tool (die) you need.
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