Alright fella, tell me about 9mm Major

[colonel]

I know, I know. Dangerous. Not very smart. I accept all liabiltity for any information I get on this forum. I would like someone with first hand knowledge to give me some ideas about this very hot 9x19 loading.

I believe the 9x19 case is much stronger than many people feel that it is. This would be fired from a 1911 pattern gun. What would I need? Heavier spring? Ramped barrel?

I would like to know velocities, oal, and charge and bullet weights.
Something that will surpass 180 power factor.

This is purely for recreational purposes. If I decide to try this, I know that I am on my own.

And please, don't tell me not to do it if you do not know. I need first hand knowledge.

Thank you

Colonel

[WESHOOT2]

My 'testing' is based on a (superbly hard-fit; thank you Bob Cogan) Nowlin barrel in a Witness. Tight chamber.
(Chrono data 'reviewed' through second Witness with factory barrel.)

WAP, 3N37, Power Pistol.
CCI500
Suggest using new cases; Starline, IMI, Winchester.
OAL; my guns need 1.160" MAX! to fit and feed, and I load to 1.155".
Made Major using 115/124/135/147g bullets; pick the one you have most of. I suggest 135g as best compromise.
I use both lead and jacketed, round-nose configuration.

My normal Major load (hahahahahahahahahaha!) consists of once-fired Speer cases, CCI500, OAL 1.155", 135g LRN, and some powder.

As for charge weight for YOUR gun, suggest load development using chronograph.

[Mal H]

This is more of a Handloading question rather than a Semiauto question. I'll move it over to the H&R forum...

[johnwill]

IMO, 9mm loading to make major PF is pointless. If you really want to shoot major, shoot a gun designed to do the job!

[CaesarI]

http://www.handloads.com/
then click "+P load data, commentary and ballistic info"
and select 9mm. 147gr 1150fps. Heard good things about Vihta Vuori N105 powder.

Be careful.

-Morgan

[Clark]

MODERATOR EDIT: For all the newcomers to this forum, member CLARK is our resident experimenter, so far over the top and beyond the line as to defy description! I keep asking him, and all the rest, to always put in a BOLD FACE warning whenever giving load data beyond that which is published. But, in his own way, CLARK is making a valuable contribution to the store of knowledge. Even if he forgets to put in proper cautions, he usually mentions the dangerous consequences (Ka-BOOM!)of some of his experiments. So, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, Kids!

Standard Caution:
The following post contains loading information far beyond published maximums. Neither The Firing Line nor any administrator, moderator or other participant assumes any responsibility nor liability for use or misuse of any of this load data. It was amassed by ONE forum member for his own edification and the posting below is NOT a suggestion that anyone use it for any prupose. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Best regards,
Johnny Guest
Moderator
H&R Forum
TFL

MODERATOR EDIT ENDS


First, let me say that if a primer is pierced, some metal goes up the firing pin hole. If a case blows down the feed ramp, before the firing pin is cleaned, then metal debris can come out of the back of the slide. If the shooter is wearing safety glasses, the bleeding will be above and/or below the glasses. This bleeding is called "MAJOR FACE".

In the work ups below look for the major face incident that caused me to switch to trigger string testing.

1) AA Book: 115 gr, 1.095", 7 gr AA#5, 1192 fps

P11 test: 115 gr, 1.168", 11gr pierce primer & case bulge, 11.7 gr, Kaboom ~2000 fps

Starline 9x23 brass trimmed to 9x19 with WSPM kabooms violently at 11 gr. major face


2) Hodgdon max: 115 gr, 1.125", 7 gr HS-6, 1234 fps

P11 test: 115 gr, 1.168", 10.8 pierce RP primer, 11.2 gr pierce WSPM, 11.5 bulged case ~ 2027fps


3) Vihtavuori book: 115 gr, 1.124", 6.9 gr 3N37, 1322 fps

P11 test: 115 gr. 1.168", 9.8 pierced primer, 10.2 case bulge ~1950 fps


4) Alliant book: 124 gr, 1.150", 6.6 gr Power Pistol, 1235 fps
P11 test: 124 gr FJMFP, 1.0" 10.5 gr ok, 1.168", 11 gr pierced primer ~1900 fps


5) Alliant book: 147 gr, 1.140", 5.7 gr Power Pistol, 1095 fps
P11 test: 147 gr, 1.169", 9.4 gr primer pierced ~1800 fps

6) Hornady 147 gr HPBT XTP
Vihtavuori 1st edition:9x19mm 4" barrel, 147 gr, 1.142", 6.1 gr 3N37, 1152 fps 36.3kpsi
Vihtavuori 1st edition:9x19mm 4" barrel, 147 gr, 1.142", 5.7 gr 3N37, 1140 fps 36.3kpsi
Vihtavuori 1st edition:9x21mm 4" barrel, 147 gr, 1.161", 6.6 gr 3N37, 1227 fps 42.8kpsi
Vihtavuori 3rd edition:9x19mm 4" barrel, 147 gr, 1.142", 5.2 gr 3N37, 1066 fps max
Vihtavuori 3rd edition:9x21mm 4" barrel, 147 gr, 1.161", 5.5 gr 3N37, 1120 fps max

Kel-Tek P11 test: 3" barrel, 147 gr, 1.169", 8.0 gr primer pierced ~1450 fps
P11 test: 3" barrel, 147 gr, 1.169", 8.4 gr case bulge ~ 1500 fps

7)
Vihtavouri 3rd edition:9x23mm 5" barrel, 130 gr, 1.280", 7.7 gr 3N37, 1414 fps 47.1kpsi

P11 test 3" barrel, 130 gr 1.30", 10.2 gr, primer pierced ~1700 fps


Note:
1) unless other wise stated, assume 9x19 RP primed brass
2) to get 11 gr of Power Pistol to fit in a case, double compression was done
3) to get 1.3" OAL in P11 [9x23], only functions as a single shot and requires extra freebore.

I should have put more warnings on these loads:

NOT EVEN I WOULD EVER SHOOT THESE LOADS WITH THE GUN IN MY HAND. THESE ARE TRIGGER STRING ONLY LOADS. RISK YOU GUN, BUT NOT YOUR BODY!!!

I am posting the data, because it is not available elsewhere. I went through alot of pistol parts getting that data. The recoil at anything near these loads is horrible.

[C.R.Sam]

I would like to emphasize one of WESHOOT2's points.

When workin toward the upper end of the spectrum. Work up gradually and shoot the hot ones ONLY in the gun used for the work up. No two barrels, headspace, chambers etc are alike. Same cartridge will yeild different pressures in guns of the same maker, model and batch.

Sam

[JohnK]

Those are some amazing loads Clark, if you'd like some company I'd love to come along the next time you go out pushing the edge.

2000 fps in a 9mm...mind boggling...

Did you ever try using small rifle primers to help with the pierced primer/major face problems? Or just figure it wasn't worth it and switched to string testing?

[Clark]

I have used alot of differnt primers.
I like RP primed brass because of the wimpy primers. They usually pierce before the case blows down the feed ramp, like a canary in a coal mine.

I have shot some loads somewhere between max book and blow up levels. I used a modified Glock 19.
I have a 48 pound triple recoil spring, and the New York disconnector, and two + 10% mag springs. The double mag springs are actually harder to load than the 48 pounds recoil is to rack.

I am a strong 170 pound man, and I can barely load a magazine in 10 minutes. Obviously, I do not have a practicle system yet. The 48 pounds is a challange to the grip. I hold the pistol grip in my left hand and the slide in my right. Again, this is not practicle.

[WESHOOT2]

My friend and I both shoot 9x21 EAA Witnesses. We both chrono'ed our loads. We shared cases. We both used the same powder. We both have factory barrels.
He used a fancy three-port comp and electro-optics, while I use the simple EAA two-port and iron sights (until the eyes give out).

We both used Winchester WAP. He used ONE GRAIN MORE to reach similar velocity. Not .2- or .3g, but ONE WHOLE GRAIN.

Your results may vary.


ps I've done 9x19 vs 9x21 experiments changing ONLY case and crimp. Velocity was within 20fps. I like 9 Major.

[Cheapo]

I know this doesn't answer the question, but as a historical note, I remember reading comments in American Handgunner in the 1980s referring to that facial blemish pattern as "Super Face," named after the .38 Super cartridge which was being hot-rodded.

Then someone called them ".38 Stupid" loads. Then the moniker changed to "Stupid Face," though it referred to the CAUSE of the bleeding rather than the intelligence of the gun operator.

Ramped barrels, +P brass and small rifle primers reportedly fixed all the problems. This was all just before the U.S. advent of V-V 3N37.

Interesting to note that Clark's 3N37 loads produce a bit less velocity at blow-up levels than some other powders. But since the pressure curves between the SAAMI or NATO or (?) DIN pressure max and blow-up can be vastly different for different powders, no firm conclusions can be reached from the data.

AFAIK, strong brass, a ramped barrel and almost any decent firearm USING THE CORRECT POWDER can safely make 9mm Major, but it may or may not be within SAAMI specs.

Since our original poster appears fully aware of the risks, I suggest that we go ahead and post the load data for all appropriate informational purposes, with all appropriate disclaimers.

[Johnny Guest]

I've never been against High Adventure, so long as the participants engage in it knowingly and advisedly.

All I require is that we give fair warning to anyone who happens to read the loads. Remember, Bold Face Cautions, and post all the high-intensity stuff you want.

I'm kinda like JohnK--- I'd really like to observe some of the load testing you guys do. Let's see - - -Sandbags, Kevlar, Lexan shield, Gargoyle glasses. Yup, I'm ready to watch.

All best,
Johnny

[JohnK]

As far as the data goes I would like to see more than just the max loads where things come apart. The format that Clark used is good, but some more of the 'inbetween' loads would be nice to see.

It's interesting to see that you can drive a 115gr 9mm 2,000 fps but what loads push it to 1,500, 1,600 ,1,700?

To reiterate to anyone thinking of trying some of these ultra hot loads, start low and work up using a chronograph or you really won't know what's going on until things start coming apart.

[Cheapo]

Unfortunately, I do not have the load data, but I witnessed a gentleman testing 9mm overloads using Bullseye powder and 90-grain JHPs. The brass started showing stress somewhere around 1700 fps, and he stopped at 1800....IIRC.

It was in a full-size European military semiauto with an unusual operating system--but NOT an H&K P7 series.

AFIK, your brass starts showing stress (imprints on the case head, of cutouts in the breechface) at somewhere between 60,000 and 75,000 PSI, depending on the brass's individual alloy, abuse level and thickness.

[stuckatwork]

2000FPS from a 115 9mm !!!!

I have one question, what bullet are you using? I can't see something like a normal FMJ holding up to that speed and spin. At those speeds, wouldn't most bullets tear themselves apart? ANd if you were crazed enough to shoot hard cast, you would have a blob of molten lead flying down range. I read some where that handgun bullets were designed to operate with certain velocity ranges...and that 2000FPS was well above those limits.

[SDC]

Have any of you tried these loads in a Glock? I'd be tempted to try some of them, but don't know if the brass provides enough support at the feed ramp area. I've had factory 124 grain FMJs factor out at 148 for me in this pistol, and I'd consider trying to make "major" in 9mm if I didn't need to worry about eating the slide or losing some fingers.

[JohnK]

Hard cast bullets COULD work but they would need to be cast specifically for this, likely use a gas check and be hardened. There are people who shoot cast rifle bullets at 2,000fps so there's no reason the same technology couldn't be applied to a 9mm. But off the shelf LRN bullets wouldn't cut it for this application.

I don't believe plated bullets would hold together enough to even get a chrono reading on them at these extreme velocities. When I've tried pushing 125gr plated bullets to ~1400+ in a 357 they would come apart, I can't see a 9mm plated holding together at much above normal 9mm velocities.

[WESHOOT2]

Hmmmmm...........

[Johnny Guest]

- - -And I want to kick in a couple more comments, friends.

They are YOUR personal things: Guns, components, eyes, hands, etc. Please bear in mind that standards and limits are set up for a reason! When you go WAY past the limits, you are into essentially unknown country.

The information published in the loading manuals is, generally, safe in MOST firearms, under MOST conditions. The manuals and knowledgeable writers all say stuff like,
This information worked under THIS SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES, utilizing THESE COMPONENTS, and with the loads tested in THIS FIREARM. Any variation alters the possible outcome. They go on to say to start lower and work up to their maximums.

As already indicated above, many participants in this forum are aware that you can do certain things with certain guns that can be very hazardous in others.

Just because one experimenter obtains acceptable results with sizzling-hot loads doesn't mean we can all do it. Also: Some experimenters, notably our member Clark, have decided to accept certain risks for the sake of extending their knowledge. Along with this comes accedptance of increased wear and tear, and possible ruin, of their particular firearm. Some are willing to sacrifice the firearm, or at least a substantial portion of the servicable term of the arm, in this quest for knowledge. But please consider: Are YOU willing to turn a superior bit of machinery into loose, inaccurate, and possible unsafe, JUNK for the sake of having fired a dozen or 20 or 100 super-hot loads? I personally am satisfied with 9x19 loads like, say, 124 at 1200, and .45ACP/230/850.

If you are compelled to go 'way out beyond the wire, then good luck to you. Please share your results, and perhaps we will all learn something.

All the best,
Johnny

Again,

[WESHOOT2]

Suggest Alliant Power Pistol, Vihta 3N37 and N350, and maybe Accurate AA7, IMR XXXX, or WAP.
Chrono required.

[shu]

I'd rather be sky diving.