AA #9 for 38 Special +P+ - Page 2

Sevens · May 18, 2016, 11:06 PM

Haha, in one post you took the OP from trying to use three components to build a handload to his children losing his estate after he's dead.

briandg · May 19, 2016, 09:58 AM

There's nothing at all funny here. If you can't think of any better way to make a point I've got no reason to waste time arguing with you. A guy was co defendant in a multi million dollar lawsuit because a gunsmith lightened his trigger and he fired hand loads and be burned in legal hell because of it. I can't imagine what makes you think that a person wouldn't be crucified over a death or injury caused by careless handling of ammunition.. just this thread, a document that includes several experts who warned him not to do it would be part of the suit.

People have sued because their kid ate a peanut and got sick. What in the world makes you think that someone who loses an eye because of someone making u unsafe ammo will give a the maker of the ammo a break.

The person who made that unsafe product is going to lose everything.

If you choose to laugh at reality, it's your own problem. Let's hope that you never screw up and draw the attention of a hungry lawyer.

DWFan · May 23, 2016, 07:26 PM

I'm seriously wondering if the folks here have ever heard of Elmer Keith's .38-44HV. It's the forerunner to the .357 Magnum; essentially a .38 Special loaded to Magnum pressures. AA#9 is perfectly suitable for such loads. Not ideal, but suitable. Elmer used 2400 for his loads.
A better option is to simply roll a new cannelure .125" below the original on the XTP bullet and use actual Magnum data. There is approx. .376" from the factory cannelure to the base of the 158gr XTP so there's enough room. Seated to this new cannelure, you are duplicating the Magnum overall length and case capacity.
A simpler option is to load the 180gr XTP to its lower cannelure. The difference between the upper and lower cannelure on this bullet (measured center to center) is .121" and, again, Magnum data can be used. Beartooth Bullets makes a 180gr WLN+P with a crimp groove in the proper location designed specifically to give a Magnum overall length and powder capacity using Special brass. If you can find them, the old Lyman #358627 215gr SWC seated to it's lower crimp groove in the Special duplicates a Magnum.

SHR970 · May 23, 2016, 07:46 PM

That's doing it the hard way. There's a much easier way to find a reasonable starting load that is +P or just into +P+. Just into +P+ would be in the OLD +P range BTW.

stompah · May 23, 2016, 08:21 PM

I get grief for doing the opposite. I download my 357 with trailboss and all I hear is how I'm wasting expensive brass. It will get work hardened!

Truth is I don't want to clean the ring that 38 leaves in a 357 chamber.

Don't follow the following advice. If you do don't hold me, anyone here or the firing line.com responsible for any damages.

If all I had was 38 brass I would find a +p load and load as long as I could and still be in the crimp groove. Then work my way up to flattened primers and stuck cases. If I know how to reload I'll know when to stop.

Or trade the brass for 357

Tin Can · May 29, 2016, 08:21 AM

Beremp...I shoot many 38 SPL in my 357 revolvers . I shoot everything from 9mm to 460 mag.
I normally load at the low to mid range , except my 38's I load+P , I enjoy them immensely they are my most used caliber, economical , accurate , fun and most of all SAFE, SAFETY, SAFETY,SAFETY. My friend do not compromise yours over a pound of the appropriate powder ...or $25 or so. I started loading in the early 80's .it's more for pleasure and satisfaction of making the ammo I want and how I want it ,and a margin for safety.

My friend good luck to you and everyone on this forum may good fortune always be close at hand, and may all the old timers like UNCLE NICK keep sharing their knowledge with us.

salvadore · May 30, 2016, 10:24 AM

As an enthusiastic user of both the Keith and Skelton loads, I have yet to blow up a firearm. I download the Keith load a grain and a half but still get 1250 fps with his bullet and my 6" barreled 28. With Skeeter's load and the 358156 bullet I get another 100fps.

I find the safety first holier than thou crowd tedious, but my loads had already been worked out, so you may want to work up your loads very carefully. Also, I have never loaded a high pressure load in a .38 special case in a .38 spec. shooter.

While I'm ranting, I'd love to know what powder and lube people who get obsructios because they have shot .38 cases in there .357s. I use dirty ol' 2400 and home made lube with lead bullets and still waiting to have to clean out this obstruction.

Ok, I'm done.

Clark · May 30, 2016, 06:07 PM

I have blown up (3) 38 specials into little pieces, that I can remember.

They were way past published maximum 357 magnum loads and with fast powder.

Other than CZ52s, guns are much harder to blow up than one would think, based on the thickness of the steel and the yield stress of steel. It seems stress for 1 millisecond is not like the tests that are used to give steel ratings. i.e. tensile strength vs RC hardness. The RC test with a diamond may be that fast, but the tensile yield is not.

beremp · July 1, 2016, 06:12 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have been busy at work and hadn't taken time to test this but today I finally got some time and did this:

Accurate on their website lists a starting load of 12.4 grains of AA9 for a 158gr stp bullet, and 11.2gr for a 158gr LC SWC. (i don't know this bullet). I loaded all of my leads with 11.5gr of AA9 just to make sure I didn't get high pressures. I loaded 12 rounds at 4 different overall lengths, giving me 3 rounds each.
The lengths were as follows:
1 - 1.580 - this is the length for a .357 magnum
2 - 1.530
3 - 1.480
4 - 1.430 - this is the length for a 38 special for this bullet.

I am using a SW686 with a 6" barrel chambered in 357 magnum.

After firing each round I checked the barrel and looked for pressure signs.

Load #1 felt like a light 357 magnum load, which it really was. No visible pressure signs.

Load #2 had a bit more recoil, still no pressure signs.

Load #3 a bit more recoild than #2, still no pressure signs.

Load #4 felt like a normal 357 load, very little primer flattening, other than that no signs of overpressure.

Obviously I do not recommend trying this. Anybody wanting to try this should make sure they are using a firearm that can handle magnum pressures and make darn sure that these loads never come close to a small frame 38 special firearm.

Nick_C_S · July 1, 2016, 08:51 PM

You did an "OAL workdown."

Good approach. A bit clever, actually.

I'm glad it worked out for you. Now that you have a baseline, you can adjust (downward sounds like a good idea) as you see fit.

SSA · July 2, 2016, 10:36 AM

If you get a chance to chronograph these loads, I hope you post those results, too.

Clark · July 2, 2016, 11:15 AM

357 Mag AA#9 158 gr published loads:
Hornady 2000 11.5 gr
"Midway Loadmap" 1999 15 bullets 11.3~11.7 gr
"Modern Reloading" Richard Lee 1996 13 gr
"Speer 12" 1994 13.7 gr
"Speer 13" 1998 13.7 gr
Accurate pamphlets 1996, 1997, 1999, & 2000 13 gr
"Accurate Arms Number Two" book 2000 15 gr
Accurate pamphlet 2001 "new data" 15 gr
"Lyman's 47th" 1992 16 gr
"Lyman Pistol and Revolver" 1994 16 gr
--------------------------------------------
My AA#9 158 gr experiments:
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
For a test gun, I used a 1965 Colt Police Positive 38 Special from Aim surplus [$79]. The limit of the strength of these guns is based on the chamber walls being ~0.060" thick.
I reamed the cylinder of Colt Police Positive to .357 mag length:
AA#9 1.590", 357 mag brass, wspm, hard crimp
16 gr OK!!
17 gr STOP! case stuck, hammered it out
That revolver should qualify as thin walled for the new lower threshold of 357 mag cases getting stuck per this 1991 post:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...0/cBSU4bR2jz8J
So how far can you stretch CDA 260 cartridge brass before it takes a
permanent set? That would be yield stress divided by Young's modulus:
63,000 psi/16*10^6 psi/(inch/inch) = .004 inches/inch.

What does it all mean?
Lyman was right. 16 gr is the max load before sticky cases.

May 18, 2016, 11:06 PM	#26
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Haha, in one post you took the OP from trying to use three components to build a handload to his children losing his estate after he's dead. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

May 19, 2016, 09:58 AM	#27
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	There's nothing at all funny here. If you can't think of any better way to make a point I've got no reason to waste time arguing with you. A guy was co defendant in a multi million dollar lawsuit because a gunsmith lightened his trigger and he fired hand loads and be burned in legal hell because of it. I can't imagine what makes you think that a person wouldn't be crucified over a death or injury caused by careless handling of ammunition.. just this thread, a document that includes several experts who warned him not to do it would be part of the suit. People have sued because their kid ate a peanut and got sick. What in the world makes you think that someone who loses an eye because of someone making u unsafe ammo will give a the maker of the ammo a break. The person who made that unsafe product is going to lose everything. If you choose to laugh at reality, it's your own problem. Let's hope that you never screw up and draw the attention of a hungry lawyer. __________________ None.

May 23, 2016, 07:26 PM	#28
DWFan Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 305	I'm seriously wondering if the folks here have ever heard of Elmer Keith's .38-44HV. It's the forerunner to the .357 Magnum; essentially a .38 Special loaded to Magnum pressures. AA#9 is perfectly suitable for such loads. Not ideal, but suitable. Elmer used 2400 for his loads. A better option is to simply roll a new cannelure .125" below the original on the XTP bullet and use actual Magnum data. There is approx. .376" from the factory cannelure to the base of the 158gr XTP so there's enough room. Seated to this new cannelure, you are duplicating the Magnum overall length and case capacity. A simpler option is to load the 180gr XTP to its lower cannelure. The difference between the upper and lower cannelure on this bullet (measured center to center) is .121" and, again, Magnum data can be used. Beartooth Bullets makes a 180gr WLN+P with a crimp groove in the proper location designed specifically to give a Magnum overall length and powder capacity using Special brass. If you can find them, the old Lyman #358627 215gr SWC seated to it's lower crimp groove in the Special duplicates a Magnum. Last edited by DWFan; May 23, 2016 at 07:40 PM.

May 30, 2016, 06:07 PM	#33
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I have blown up (3) 38 specials into little pieces, that I can remember. They were way past published maximum 357 magnum loads and with fast powder. Other than CZ52s, guns are much harder to blow up than one would think, based on the thickness of the steel and the yield stress of steel. It seems stress for 1 millisecond is not like the tests that are used to give steel ratings. i.e. tensile strength vs RC hardness. The RC test with a diamond may be that fast, but the tensile yield is not. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

July 1, 2016, 06:12 PM	#34
beremp Junior Member Join Date: May 16, 2016 Posts: 3	here's what i did CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. I have been busy at work and hadn't taken time to test this but today I finally got some time and did this: Accurate on their website lists a starting load of 12.4 grains of AA9 for a 158gr stp bullet, and 11.2gr for a 158gr LC SWC. (i don't know this bullet). I loaded all of my leads with 11.5gr of AA9 just to make sure I didn't get high pressures. I loaded 12 rounds at 4 different overall lengths, giving me 3 rounds each. The lengths were as follows: 1 - 1.580 - this is the length for a .357 magnum 2 - 1.530 3 - 1.480 4 - 1.430 - this is the length for a 38 special for this bullet. I am using a SW686 with a 6" barrel chambered in 357 magnum. After firing each round I checked the barrel and looked for pressure signs. Load #1 felt like a light 357 magnum load, which it really was. No visible pressure signs. Load #2 had a bit more recoil, still no pressure signs. Load #3 a bit more recoild than #2, still no pressure signs. Load #4 felt like a normal 357 load, very little primer flattening, other than that no signs of overpressure. Obviously I do not recommend trying this. Anybody wanting to try this should make sure they are using a firearm that can handle magnum pressures and make darn sure that these loads never come close to a small frame 38 special firearm. Last edited by beremp; July 1, 2016 at 06:17 PM.

May 23, 2016, 07:46 PM	#29
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	That's doing it the hard way. There's a much easier way to find a reasonable starting load that is +P or just into +P+. Just into +P+ would be in the OLD +P range BTW.

May 23, 2016, 08:21 PM	#30
stompah Junior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Posts: 11	I get grief for doing the opposite. I download my 357 with trailboss and all I hear is how I'm wasting expensive brass. It will get work hardened! Truth is I don't want to clean the ring that 38 leaves in a 357 chamber. Don't follow the following advice. If you do don't hold me, anyone here or the firing line.com responsible for any damages. If all I had was 38 brass I would find a +p load and load as long as I could and still be in the crimp groove. Then work my way up to flattened primers and stuck cases. If I know how to reload I'll know when to stop. Or trade the brass for 357

May 29, 2016, 08:21 AM	#31
Tin Can Junior Member Join Date: December 20, 2015 Posts: 9	Beremp...I shoot many 38 SPL in my 357 revolvers . I shoot everything from 9mm to 460 mag. I normally load at the low to mid range , except my 38's I load+P , I enjoy them immensely they are my most used caliber, economical , accurate , fun and most of all SAFE, SAFETY, SAFETY,SAFETY. My friend do not compromise yours over a pound of the appropriate powder ...or $25 or so. I started loading in the early 80's .it's more for pleasure and satisfaction of making the ammo I want and how I want it ,and a margin for safety. My friend good luck to you and everyone on this forum may good fortune always be close at hand, and may all the old timers like UNCLE NICK keep sharing their knowledge with us.

May 30, 2016, 10:24 AM	#32
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	As an enthusiastic user of both the Keith and Skelton loads, I have yet to blow up a firearm. I download the Keith load a grain and a half but still get 1250 fps with his bullet and my 6" barreled 28. With Skeeter's load and the 358156 bullet I get another 100fps. I find the safety first holier than thou crowd tedious, but my loads had already been worked out, so you may want to work up your loads very carefully. Also, I have never loaded a high pressure load in a .38 special case in a .38 spec. shooter. While I'm ranting, I'd love to know what powder and lube people who get obsructios because they have shot .38 cases in there .357s. I use dirty ol' 2400 and home made lube with lead bullets and still waiting to have to clean out this obstruction. Ok, I'm done.

July 1, 2016, 08:51 PM	#35
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,523	You did an "OAL workdown." Good approach. A bit clever, actually. I'm glad it worked out for you. Now that you have a baseline, you can adjust (downward sounds like a good idea) as you see fit. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

July 2, 2016, 10:36 AM	#36
SSA Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Posts: 641	If you get a chance to chronograph these loads, I hope you post those results, too.

July 2, 2016, 11:15 AM	#37
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	357 Mag AA#9 158 gr published loads: Hornady 2000 11.5 gr "Midway Loadmap" 1999 15 bullets 11.3~11.7 gr "Modern Reloading" Richard Lee 1996 13 gr "Speer 12" 1994 13.7 gr "Speer 13" 1998 13.7 gr Accurate pamphlets 1996, 1997, 1999, & 2000 13 gr "Accurate Arms Number Two" book 2000 15 gr Accurate pamphlet 2001 "new data" 15 gr "Lyman's 47th" 1992 16 gr "Lyman Pistol and Revolver" 1994 16 gr -------------------------------------------- My AA#9 158 gr experiments: CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. For a test gun, I used a 1965 Colt Police Positive 38 Special from Aim surplus [$79]. The limit of the strength of these guns is based on the chamber walls being ~0.060" thick. I reamed the cylinder of Colt Police Positive to .357 mag length: AA#9 1.590", 357 mag brass, wspm, hard crimp 16 gr OK!! 17 gr STOP! case stuck, hammered it out That revolver should qualify as thin walled for the new lower threshold of 357 mag cases getting stuck per this 1991 post: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...0/cBSU4bR2jz8J So how far can you stretch CDA 260 cartridge brass before it takes a permanent set? That would be yield stress divided by Young's modulus: 63,000 psi/16*10^6 psi/(inch/inch) = .004 inches/inch. What does it all mean? Lyman was right. 16 gr is the max load before sticky cases. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?