Neophyte Handgun Questions: Theory and Practice

[Demetrius]

I would appreciate recommendations on two handguns: one for home defense, and one for ‘invisible’ concealment.

In both cases, if it is possible, I would like to get extremely safe weapons. Since we have previously not been a gun family, I am understandably concerned about preventing future accidents and mistakes. My wife and I plan on taking classes after purchasing the two handguns, but I imagine some guns are more unwieldy than others from a safety standpoint. We have sons (8 and 10 years old) and I want to ensure their safety as we become responsible gun owners.

STORAGE

How do you store your handguns to prevent accidents, but still have it available in an emergency? Or are these two propositions mutually exclusive. For example, I have read that you should keep your guns locked up to prevent access by curious children, depressed teens, theft, etc.; but I am not sure how you do that and still remain capable of defending yourself against crimes like home invasion? Surely you don't keep it under a pillow for the dog to carry off and chew on the trigger?

SAFTEY FEATURES

Which features help prevent accidental discharges and unauthorized use of both the home defense gun and the concealed weapon? Wearing a gun under your clothing seems an exceedingly risky proposition from a novice perspective… I want to keep all my bits and pieces firmly attached for future use

Thank you so much.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

There are devices that will keep the gun from kids. I looked at two, today. Metal box, the size of a shoebox. Sequence of four buttons. Battery operated. You would bolt it under your bed/in your closet. About $150.

Other than that, I always had a semiauto for home. Kept the bullets separate from the gun. But even that is not going to be safe enough for curious preteens.

I think the above pistol safe might be advisable.

As far as concealment/CCW, a revolver is pretty good. You sound like a novice. A revolver is pretty basic; foolproof, almost. Get a good IWB holster and you're good to go.

[Mosin44az]

There are a variety of pistol safes out there that should be pretty fast access, there is one in particular that interested me because it was very solid and had a Simplex-type lock. I have unfortunately forgotten the brand.

You may want to get a safe large enough for both your handguns.

I would also get a safe with a key override, I think most have that feature.

One option I have thought about is to buy a pistol that has a magazine safety, so that when the magazine is out the gun will not fire. You can then keep the pistol in one spot and the mags in another, or carry a mag around in your pocket if you want ( I would use a mag holster for this to keep it clean), or take the mags with you to work so you have an extra degree of confidence that nothing is going to happen if you are away, etc.

Not that many pistols have this feature, but some do. I recall Browning Hi-Power, Smith & Wesson alloy frame pistols (e.g. 3913) also, more recently, the Ruger P345.

Since you are new to guns I recommend for the home defense gun either a 9mm pistol or a medium frame .38 special or .357 magnum revolver , out of which I would shoot .38 specials to start. Examples of medium frame revolvers are Smith & Wesson Models 10, 15, 65, 66, you will get the idea from that. Also Ruger GP100. The new Smith revolvers have a built-in trigger lock that is NOT recommended to be used. The guns should be OK as long as you never use the lock.

Taurus seems to have a pretty good child-proof lock system built into both their revolvers and pistols. The lock takes a key that works easily (and seems to work on more than one pistol, too; it's for child-proofing, not theft prevention).

It would be hard to have an "invisible" carry gun that would also be an ideal home gun. "Invisible" guns tend to be pretty small. I actually would recommend against an aluminum or titanium small-frame revolver to start, as a new shooter you would find the recoil painful and control difficult. Steel small revolvers (steel Taurus M85 or Smith J frames in steel, or Ruger SP101) would be much easier to master but would be too heavy to carry in a pants pocket. You would need some kind of belt system.

Maybe check out the Bersa Thunder .380 CC, it has an alloy frame, is almost small enough to easily slip into a pocket, and seems to have a good reputation. Also it's inexpensive. It also I think has a built in lock and maybe even a magazine safety. The Taurus PT111 Mil Pro is also pretty small and has a lock. Glock 26 would be an outstanding concealed carry choice, but is a little thick.

I also recommend maybe NRA Eddie Eagle or other safety training for your children. Massad Ayoob wrote a book Gun-Proof Your Child which makes a good case for this. If you allow your kids to handle and even shoot your guns (under your supervision) it reduces the "forbidden fruit" factor, and they would also be better able to handle the situation if one of their "playmates" suddenly pulls out his Dad's gun.

As for safety while carrying, a reasonably solid holster that covers the trigger, a revolver or a pistol with a longer trigger pull or a manual safety should be sufficient. Actually Glock 26, mentioned above, you would definitely need a solid holster covering the trigger. The Taurus and Bersa mentioned above both have manual safeties in addition to longer initial trigger pulls, but I would still make sure my carry method covered their triggers.

"Invisible" carry is pretty difficult in a warm climate. I have shifted to very small and light pocket guns that you may not like. People on this forum seem to like the Smart Carry system. If you are slim, you might look for a "tuckable" inside the waistband holster so you can carry on the belt and tuck your shirt over the gun. In cooler climates, invisible carry is obviously much easier.

Sorry to be verbose, I just got on a roll.

[FAL-schutter]

Demetrius, I would advise you to read Cornered Cat, a website operated by a lady who goes by the username "pax" on this forum. In particular, you might be interested in the page on storing guns safely with children in the house, and indeed the entire section on children and guns. But really, you should read the whole site, and make sure your wife reads it too. It has a lot of good information tailored towards women (and especially mothers) who are prospective gun owners.

As Mosin44az suggests, getting a copy of Ayoob's Gunproof Your Children/Handgun Primer and reading it attentively is also a good idea. It's available from Ayoob's own site for $4.95 plus shipping, or from Backwoods Home Magazine. In fact, I'd recommend you pick up as many of Ayoob's books as you can afford, starting with The Truth About Self-Protection and In The Gravest Extreme. You might also want to check out some of the columns he's written for the aforementioned Backwoods Home Magazine.

As concerns preventing unintentional discharges, I would say that technology is secondary to attitude. You may have heard the advice "don't rely on your weapon's [mechanical] safety to keep you safe"; this is sound advice! All the manual safeties in the world won't prevent an unintentional discharge if you handle the weapon negligently. Scrupulously observing the "Four Rules" will go further toward responsible firearms handling than any mechanical feature.

Now, you say you want to get two handguns, one slated for home defense and one for concealed carry. The impression I get is that your plan is to build a handgun pool ("pool" as in "vehicle pool"), with the person who is going out taking the concealed carry weapon, leaving the other with the home defense weapon. So both users have to be able to effectively use either weapon. If so, I would suggest that you look at weapons which are available in "full-size" and "compact" (and/or "subcompact") versions, and getting one of each version. Because both weapons will be mechanically identical (and have similar grips and such), it will be easier to switch from one to the other, as you won't need to remember two sets of operating instructions. Think of it as comparable to having two different-sized cars with identical dashboard and control layouts. I would also suggest you get both weapons in the same caliber, to simplify logistics of ammunition supply. I second Mosin44az's suggestion that 9x19mm (aka 9mm Parabellum or 9mm Luger) is the best choice for a beginning shooter where semi-autos are concerned. This partly because 9mm Para is the most controllable of viable self-defense rounds, and partly because it's comparatively cheap; thus, it's comparatively easy and cheap to train with, which should encourage you to do so.

As examples, consider a combination of

• a Glock 17 (for HD) and a Glock 19 or 26 (for CCW);
• a Springfield XD Tactical (5" barrel) and an XD Subcompact (3" barrel);
• a Heckler & Koch USP and USP Compact; or
• a Heckler & Koch P2000 and P2000SK.

There are many more examples of semi-autos which come in a range of sizes. I'm sure similar combinations can be cooked up with revolvers, but I'm not very knowledgeable on those, so I'll leave that to someone else.

Note that such a plan does require that both you and your wife would have to comfortable with the weapon and caliber. Also, even if you find a weapon that meets those requirements, bear in mind that you will likely each need your own holsters, at least for the concealed carry weapon.

Good luck!

[358minus1]

Consider a hammerless, double action only, 2 inch barrel 357. This will serve both your needs. The SP101 is a little larger than other Pocket revolvers, but its very concealable IWB and the extra weight makes it very comfortable to shoot 38 Spl's with, meaning you and your wife will enjoy shooting it and practice more. If you think you'll conceal a lot, I'd get the 2 inch barrel.
http://ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView...=5720&return=Y

If you'll conceal it a little bit, but mainly rely on it for a bedside gun, I'd consider the 3 inch barrel.
http://ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView...=5719&return=Y

Then you can get another toy just for plinking and playing around. My wife and I enjoy shooting some of the medium to large framed 9mm's. Of course any of these med to lg framed 9mm's serve well as a bedside gun as long as you ensure the semi operates very, very well with whatever hollowpoints you choose for self defense.

Personally, I like the simplicity of revolvers for self defense.

[cheygriz]

Look at the SIG P239. Heavy double action pull for first shot and light, crisp SA for subsequent shots. IMHO, about as safe as you can get.

[Samurai]

Amen on pax's "Cornered Cat" website! Definitely the place to start...

As far as "storing," it depends on your house, and it depends on your kids. By FAR, the best way to "make a gun safe" around your kids is to TEACH them about guns. As for me, personally, I have no kids. I DO have a very nice, honey-oak chest from the Museum Company. It makes a beautiful decorative piece of furniture, and it has very stout brass locks. The ONLY key is on my keychain, in my pocket. Guns inside are locked and loaded, ready to go (safety on, of course).

If you want "ultimate concealability," check out the KelTec 32. I don't own one, but I've heard great things about the little buggers. They're TINY, and they seem to be pretty reliable.

Trick to carrying safely is having a good holster, constructed from hard leather, which completely covers the trigger guard AND the safety switch. The gun WILL NOT fire unless something (or somebody) pulls the trigger. So, the key is to keep the trigger inaccessible to foreign objects.

Some folks like straps over the hammer on their holsters for retention, some don't. Personally, mine don't have straps. My holsters are of high enough quality that the gun is custom-moulded to the leather, and the gun "snaps into" the leather, so it is retained pretty well.

Go to www.packing.org, right now, and read about your state's laws on concealed carry. Odds are OVERWHELMINGLY good that you need a license to carry legally, and the website will tell you how to get one.

Have fun shopping, and welcome to a whole new world!

[TexasCop]

I have 3 kids, and a wife who isn't as "gun savvy" as she could be.

My methods are that if a gun is not ON me (which makes it safe at the time) then it is either in my big safe (unloaded) or it's in my small safe, a metal box 18" x 10" x 6" with a simplex lock on it (this was before the fingerprint recognition stuff and I still don't trust battery systems anyway).

Your best safety is your mind, maintaining control of your weapons in such a way that other people can't get at them is the most important thing you can do. Second option is to have manual safeties on the weapon itself, like a S&W auto, with the manual safety and magazine safety too, so that you can remove the mag and make the weapon inoperable.

I've seen some of the web sites mentioned and they do provide a lot of insight and advice that is helpful.

Best of luck.

[Demetrius]

First of all, I want to thank you for the responses. I am learning a lot just reading through your posts and checking the recommended links.

With this new information, I think I am veering away from a concealed carry handgun. Initially, I think we will keep one gun at the house using one of the storage options you all mentioned.

So I suppose we need a durable, rugged, workhorse home defense handgun that will not mind being fired in shooting ranges on a regular basis. Low cost ammunition would be a plus.

Does that alter your suggestions much?

P.S. Just a note: I have a veteran acquaintance who showed me his Glock. It is very nice looking, but what surprised me was how much of the weapon is constructed of plastic. Being unfamiliar with weapons, I had assumed they would be completely formed of durable metals.

[CarbineCaleb]

They make a number of gunsafes that provide quick access and yet are secure. If you have kids, I'd suggest getting one that can hold a box or two of pistol ammo for each gun as well as the gun itself - some are awfully small.

While I agree with the idea of training the kids to treat guns with respect in the manner of NRA's Eddie Eagle Gunsafe program, in my opinion, this is not a substitute for a physical gunsafe. Some kids are simply more curious/mischieveous than others, and won't always do everything they are told to do if no one is watching - I sure didn't when I was a kid, I made up my own mind (yes, for better and for worse ). If anything ever happens, it cannot be undone or done over.

[FAL-schutter]

Initially, I think we will keep one gun at the house using one of the storage options you all mentioned.

Get two. If you go to investigate that unusual noise in the kitchen at 2 AM, it defeats the purpose of having a home defense weapon if you don't take it along. At the same time, you can't really have the whole family tagging along, but you don't really want to leave them unprotected. So get two guns. If you're going to use both for HD alone, I'd suggest you and your wife each pick a weapon you're personally comfortable with.

If concealability isn't an issue, I'd advise going for "full-size" weapons firing a moderately powered round; as a rule of thumb, the heavier the weapon, the more recoil it will absorb. Mosin44az suggested getting a revolver chambered for .357 Magnum and loading it with .38 Specials, which is an excellent idea (both bullets have the same diameter, but the .357 is significantly more powerful; thus, you can safely fire .38 Specials from a weapon chambered for .357 Magnum, but not the other way round!). This also gives you the option, once you get skilled with the weapon, of upgrading to the more powerful round without having to buy a new weapon. In semi-auto, I'd recommend anything large-framed chambered for 9x19mm.

Examples of the handgun quick-access lock-boxes to which CarbineCaleb refers are those made by GunVault, Handgun Box, and AmSec, all of which produce models which will hold more than one weapon (or one weapon plus some ammunition). Be advised that such boxes really aren't burglar-proof--which is why I hesitate to call them "safes"--but they do generally do a good job of stopping a child who is inquisitive but doesn't want to honk off mom & dad by breaking anything.

In the event you decide to expand your collection at a later date, you may want to invest in a full-size safe. Buyer's advice on selecting a safe can be found on this page at Cornered Cat, this page on 6mmBR.com, and this compilation of advice collated from rec.guns, a Usenet group.

I have a veteran acquaintance who showed me his Glock. It is very nice looking, but what surprised me was how much of the weapon is constructed of plastic. Being unfamiliar with weapons, I had assumed they would be completely formed of durable metals.

Shhhh, don't get them started... (The relative merits of metal and polymer frames are a topic of lively and never-ending discussion among handgun enthusiasts.)

[OBIWAN]

Buy a good quality 9mm pistol

Nice cheap ammunition so you can practice a lot

[Waitone]

Second the comments about Pax.

I'll defer to those who recommend hardware other than to say get a good hard fix on how you'll use your two purchases then let that fix guide your decisions.

One of the fun aspects of guns is one ain't never enough. There is no such thing as a general use firearm. Just as soon as you settle on your heart's desire another firearm will capture your imagination. And so it goes.

Regarding your kiddies. Do not make safe firearms your final line of safety. Safety proof your kids. Remove the mystery of firearms by making it a family affair. Teach them to shoot. Instruct them in safety. Take the kids to range. You'll be creating memories of a lifetime in addition to training up firearms safe kids. An example from my own life is to the point. When I was a kid I passed through a phase where I was fascinated with matches. Dad's response was simple. He removed the fascination by allowing me to play with matches while he was around. He even instructed me in their safe use. Bottom line is I had all the access to matches I wanted anytime I wanted; therefore no interest.

Same with your kids. Teach them safety, the techniques of shooting, and most importantly, how to clean guns. Trust me on this; If your wife shoots with you, you will clean the guns. Recruit the kids.

[Demetrius]

I have really been studying up on the weapons you all listed and I went to some gun shops to get a feel for my aesthetic preferences. They had some that you suggested, but I was drawn to the three below (or alternatively the compact options).

Can someone compare and contrast the following weapons? Which would be more fun to shoot? Are there any safety advantages? Are there some features that would make this choice easier? Or is it all just 'what you like?' Note: I was focusing on 9mm because I read it was less expensive ammo.

'Polymer'

S&W M&P 9mm (or compact?)
Baretta PX4 Storm 9mm

'All Metal'

Sig P229 9mm (or compact Sig 232 .380acp (not sure about this caliber))

Sue me, but I didn't like the look of the Glocks at all (*dives for cover*) and I didn’t want to go with a revolver at this point. For some psychological reason I prefer the idea of a mostly metal handgun like the Sig P229, but I am sure there are advantages to the polymer components too. The Baretta is rounded and a bit more interesting looking than the S&W, but then I can't put up a sign like: this house protected by Smith and Wesson (*cough*) Kidding.

The S&W M&P compact and the Sig 232 are smaller weapons and I am not sure how they would perform relative to the larger versions.

Can someone untie this Gordian knot?

[CarbineCaleb]

As others have already said, I would highly recommend shooting these guns before you buy. If you can imagine buying a car by asking around about what's good, versus going for a good test drive in each model yourself, you may see what I mean. Ask 20 people what car you should buy, and there will probably be some validity in each person's opinion, and yet, you may still get 20 different recommendations.

Just holding the gun in the shops tells you a little bit, but is kind of like sitting in the car at the dealership showroom and making engine noises - you can see and feel materials and finish, but you can only try to imagine how well or poorly this thing actually operates.

Not sure why you are dismissing revolvers without trying any, but as someone else said, a .357 revolver is not 'obsolete', and although it's a great gun for beginners, it's not a beginners gun - meaning experts like them too. It'd probably be educational to throw in at least one experience with something on the order of a 3 or 4 inch barreled Smith & Wesson 686P or a Ruger GP100, into the mix with a few semiautos you've narrowed the field down to.

You can find rental ranges in your area here:
http://www.packing.org/range/

[FAL-schutter]

It's okay not to like Glocks; they're a bit of an acquired taste. Also, they might not be what you're looking for vis-a-vis safety features. To paraphrase Massad Ayoob, "the great thing about Glocks is that they're easy to shoot; the downside is, they're easy to shoot." Also, personal taste does play a large role in handgun selection: if you get a gun which you don't really like, you won't be motivated to become good with it.

You should, indeed, if at all possible "test drive" the candidates on your shortlist. But if that proves inconclusive, I'd say that, if you're inclined toward the SIG P229 anyway, you should go with that one. An advantage of metal-framed guns is that you can replace the grips, such as with Crimson Trace laser grips (see Cornered Cat on "The Case for Lasers" and "Practicing with Laser Grips"). They are potentially a very useful training tool (and combat aid).

I would caution against going for .380 ACP (aka 9x17mm, 9mm Short); it's really at the very bottom edge of what is generally considered an effective self-defense round, and nowhere near as popular as 9mm Para. Go for a P239 if you're looking for a more compact package.

As CarbineCaleb says, though, do look into revolvers as well. Revolvers are a bit harder to shoot than semi-autos, but they're mechanically simpler and more forgiving of neglect. And Crimson Trace makes grips for both models Caleb mentions, which might help with the shooting skills, and if you went with the Smith, you could put up that sign.

ETA: oh, yes, and I absolutely concur what Waitone says about gun safety and children.

[CarbineCaleb]

Beste Fal - hoe gaat het? Mist u Holland? Mijn ouders immigreerden daar van, maar ik moet nog de computer gebruiken om deze groet te vertalen!

[FAL-schutter]

(Whoa, I did not see that one coming! Give me a sec to retrieve my jaw off the floor.)

Het gaat heel goed, dank je, Caleb. Ja, ik mis Nederland soms, maar ik ben toch liever in Amerika.

(Translation available on request.)

[Demetrius]

We found out today that my wife likes guns with as little perceived recoil/muzzle lift as possible. Is there a 9mm out there that fits the bill? I think she will shoot regularly if we can mitigate this feature as much as possible. It may not be a reasonable request, but I promised I would ask

[Mosin44az]

9mm is a good choice, an effective caliber with relatively light recoil and lower cost . A good place to start.

You need to find out how your hand and your wife's fit particular guns. Both of you have to be able to reach the trigger with your trigger finger and curl the tip of the finger over the trigger finger without stretching. This is ideal, anyway. I actually think that Cornered Cat site has an article on checking gun fit.

Don't worry about polymer vs. metal. Polymers are very tough. Glocks are phenomenally tough--thrown from airplanes, run over by trucks--no problems. Springfield XD and Ruger P95 have also been tortured thoroughly, and come through fine.

Almost any medium to large frame 9mm would have mild perceived recoil. Obviously the heavier ones are the ones with metal frames, these would have even less recoil. SIG P 226 or 229, Beretta 92 Vertec or 90-Two, Taurus PT92, CZ 75B, would be like this.

I think you have to try out various types and see which ones fit. You can get "shorter" triggers for the SIGs, and the 90-Two has various grip inserts to shorten the pull. The Vertec is supposed to have a smaller grip than the older Beretta model. Both the CZ and the Taurus would have long double action pulls, but both can be carried "cocked and locked" if you want, though this may not be a good idea for a neophyte.

That Beretta Px4 also would be a good start, it is new but seems to be testing out well, and it has adjustable grip size.

[FAL-schutter]

That Beretta Px4 also would be a good start, it is new but seems to be testing out well, and it has adjustable grip size.

As do the Walther P99 and H&K P2000, by the way.

[358minus1]

Demetrius
I beleive you should consider a revolver as a first family gun. They are very simple. If you decide its really not going to be a carry gun, I'd say something like these would be good choices for a first gun for the family to enjoy shooting together.
http://ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView...=1715&return=Y
http://ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView...=5719&return=Y
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...egory_rn=15705

The 3 inch barrels offer very reasonable accuracy, yet can be carried concealed if you choose. Look into the frame sizes. Larger frames = heavier, less felt recoil, more difficult to carry concealed. As you'll learn, it tough to get one gun to do everything. There's always a comprimise somewhere. Your wife will get used to recoil, but getting a 357 allows you to shoot lower power 38SPL loads.

God forbid you need it, but if you or your wife are required to defend yourself in your home, she can get it from the lock box, not have to worry about clips, safeties, jams or anything else except "where is my family?" and "where is the threat?".

Spend some time thinking about the grip size. You and your wife's hands may be very different in size, so what makes you comfortable may be uncomfortable for her.

My wife has small hands (she makes up for it in other areas.....), and she has found the Taurus Millenium Pro in 9 mm to be very comfortable to hold and shoot (she is getting one for her Birthday in May). In general, once your wife gets used to shooting, just about any 9mm (except for the really small pistols) will be pretty comfortable to shoot. Spend time getting a 9mm that fits her hand. You will have an easier time holding a smaller grip, than she will have hold a grip that is too large.

[OBIWAN]

For a first pistol I would go with the full size M&P


Climbing up on soapbox

As for safety

ALL weapons are safe if you do your part

No autopistol will go bang unless you pull the trigger (barring mechanical defect)

Some operating systems may make you feel safer but they are no substitute for proper gun handling and they will not prevent a ND in most instances

If a DA/SA trigger or safety (or all 3) make you feel better then by all means go that route

But don't let that breed complacency

I can keep my finger on the trigger...that 12 lb pull will keep me safe

No...it won't

I recently saw a thread where someone said the XD is safer than a glock because of the grip safety...and a few days later I read about a guy that shot himself in the butt holstering his XD

I imagine he was pretty surprised that the grip safety let him down

Speaking only for myself...the only pistol I have that have safeties are also the ones meant to be carried cocked-and-locked

I personally see safety in simplicity YMMV

Climbing back down

[RG Stewart]

I always suggest that a semi-auto is more appropriate in a house with small children. Every safeguard already mentioned notwithstanding, a revolver typically requires less hand strength and coordination to make loud.

[FM12]

I suggest you get a copy of Massad Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme" and read it along with your wife.