AR 15 Full Auto for Pennies

Dr Big Bird PhD · November 11, 2012, 10:38 PM

Figure the title would turn a few heads. Anyway, I am doing script coverage for my company and one of the sections goes as follows:

"Across his lap is the AR 15 assault rifle. He has it mostly disassembled and is in the process of placing three pennies behind the firing pin, making a semiautomatic rifle a machine gun."

Besides the /hilarious/ misuse of terminology, is there any substantial backing to the idea that one can use pennies, or anything else, to alter the firing pin to become fully automatic?

Which also brings me to a large ATF encounter commandeering a shipment of airsoft guns under the statue of "easy conversion" to real automatic weapons. I have my personal bias against this inane enforcement (personally i find it irrational to regulated a weapon's firing capabilities), however how easy is it actually make a semi-automatic weapon full auto?

or am i missing something

allaroundhunter · November 11, 2012, 10:52 PM

No, that would not make it fully automatic. Pennies won't even fit in the BCG behind the firing pin.

Where did you hear that would work?

And do you have a link to the ATF's commandeering of said airsoft gun shipment? Airsoft guns cannot be modified to fire live ammunition....

If this is the type of stuff that is told to Cali's civilians and politicians then no wonder the gun laws are like they are over there......

In conclusion:

Quote:

or am i missing something

No, you are missing lots of things...

the rifleer · November 11, 2012, 11:21 PM

This would actually make the rifle completely inoperative. the firing pin would never get hit.

And as noted, air soft guns work on an entirely different principle that an actual gun. Its easier and more cost effective to make you own than to try to modify an airsoft gun.

Doc Intrepid · November 11, 2012, 11:27 PM

If your Google-Fu is strong, search for

"M16 Auto Sear Diagram"

You will find numerous websites that have drawings and photos of what makes the sear mechanism function in a fully automatic mode, including photos of a "drop in" auto sear that was available about 30 years ago or so.

(You'll note that pennies do not figure into any of the drawings...)

allaroundhunter · November 11, 2012, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Its easier and more cost effective to make you own than to try to modify an airsoft gun.

But that would take the fun out of it.... After all, Defcon's work looks like it was lots of fun!

mrbatchelor · November 12, 2012, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allaroundhunter

And do you have a link to the ATF's commandeering of said airsoft gun shipment? Airsoft guns cannot be modified to fire live ammunition.....

http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/ne...eRrqgIQaA.cspx

Quentin2 · November 12, 2012, 01:03 AM

A thread like this should be deleted. Nothing good can come of discussing how a semiauto trigger group can be converted illegally to fire full auto.

On the other hand bumpfiring appears to be legal but highly stupid. Your script (whatever that may be) would be more accurate discussing something like rubber bands or string that can be bought for pennies to simulate full auto fire (not true automatic fire).

Dr Big Bird PhD · November 12, 2012, 01:20 PM

The point of the thread was for clarification on the inaccuracy of the script. I'm not advocating altering weapons or proliferating illegal activity. I have seen multiple times where the ATF, Hollywood, or such have used a baseless premise for automatic fear mongering.

The penny example is only one of them and seemed particularly strange.

Bartholomew Roberts · November 12, 2012, 09:55 PM

1. As pointed out, pennies could not fit behind the firing pin, and if they could, would stop the hammer from hitting the pin and the weapon would not fire at all. So that theory is just bizarre.

2. Regarding airsoft rifles, the problem was that some of them were so similar to the real thing that you could take the automatic airsoft lower and put a real firearm upper on it and conceivably have an unregistered machinegun. To the extent that can happen, it is a concern for ATF.

Even with a lower that perfectly matched a machinegun lower, there are still some minor differences (often bolt carrier and firing pin flange diameter) that would make most semi-auto uppers on a machinegun lower slightly less reliable than an actual M4.

allaroundhunter · November 12, 2012, 11:39 PM

Quote:

2. Regarding airsoft rifles, the problem was that some of them were so similar to the real thing that you could take the automatic airsoft lower and put a real firearm upper on it and conceivably have an unregistered machinegun. To the extent that can happen, it is a concern for ATF.

Even with a lower that perfectly matched a machinegun lower, there are still some minor differences (often bolt carrier and firing pin flange diameter) that would make most semi-auto uppers on a machinegun lower slightly less reliable than an actual M4.

Hold up, aren't these airsoft guns battery powered? How would this even work?... I am thoroughly confused now....

Quentin2 · November 13, 2012, 12:48 AM

So why go into detail at all? Why don't you just change the script to:

"Across his lap is the AR 15 rifle. He has it mostly disassembled and is in the process of making a semiautomatic rifle a machine gun."

Dr Big Bird PhD · November 13, 2012, 01:13 AM

I'm reviewing the script, not writing it. It's illegal to tamper with the words unless I have the rights to it.

And all around hunter asked my question too. I heard the airsoft guns had different sized lowers that were incompatible with AR uppers

Nickel Plated · November 13, 2012, 01:33 AM

No, pennies wouldn't work. There are some methods that would, but pennies are not one of them.

As for converting an airsoft gun into a firearm. Well, with enough money and effort you can convert damn near anything into a firearm. However there are much easier ways of building an AR-15, even a full-auto one than converting an airsoft gun.
Sort of like converting a car into a plane. You're better off just building the plane from scratch.
80% lowers are readily available, and once you make them into a complete semi-auto lower, there's only one more small pocket to cut out to make it select-fire.

Quote:

Hold up, aren't these airsoft guns battery powered? How would this even work?... I am thoroughly confused now....

Yes the battery-powered ones are infact battery-powered

Those you really can't do anything with, their entire design is completely different. Dimensions way off, they are too fat, in order to accommodate the motor and gearbox.

The gas-powered ones (those are the ones ATF kinda got twitchy about) are much closer to the real AR lowers in design and dimensions. You can actually mate a real upper to it. However the FCG pins (and the FCG itself) are slightly out of place. So If you used a real BCG, the hammer wouldn't strike it. Also the inner cavity is cut somewhat wider inside so real FCG parts, won't fit.
Again, with the amount of work necessary to make these lowers work, you may as well just take an 80%er and make a select-fire lower from scratch.

BTW I'm really not sure what ATF actually did about it. I guess they decided they had their head up their ass and these airsoft guns are not infact "readily convertible" Considering the fact that pretty much every major airsoft retailer in the country has been selling them for years now, and none of them have yet to get raided.

Art Eatman · November 13, 2012, 07:07 AM

Looks like the OP's question is answered.

November 11, 2012, 10:38 PM	#1
Dr Big Bird PhD Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 779	AR 15 Full Auto for Pennies Figure the title would turn a few heads. Anyway, I am doing script coverage for my company and one of the sections goes as follows: "Across his lap is the AR 15 assault rifle. He has it mostly disassembled and is in the process of placing three pennies behind the firing pin, making a semiautomatic rifle a machine gun." Besides the /hilarious/ misuse of terminology, is there any substantial backing to the idea that one can use pennies, or anything else, to alter the firing pin to become fully automatic? Which also brings me to a large ATF encounter commandeering a shipment of airsoft guns under the statue of "easy conversion" to real automatic weapons. I have my personal bias against this inane enforcement (personally i find it irrational to regulated a weapon's firing capabilities), however how easy is it actually make a semi-automatic weapon full auto? or am i missing something __________________ I told the new me, "Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'" But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back." Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor

November 11, 2012, 11:21 PM	#3
the rifleer Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2008 Location: Sunny California Posts: 1,281	This would actually make the rifle completely inoperative. the firing pin would never get hit. And as noted, air soft guns work on an entirely different principle that an actual gun. Its easier and more cost effective to make you own than to try to modify an airsoft gun. __________________ There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.

November 11, 2012, 11:27 PM	#4
Doc Intrepid Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2009 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,037	If your Google-Fu is strong, search for "M16 Auto Sear Diagram" You will find numerous websites that have drawings and photos of what makes the sear mechanism function in a fully automatic mode, including photos of a "drop in" auto sear that was available about 30 years ago or so. (You'll note that pennies do not figure into any of the drawings...) __________________ *Treat everyone you meet with dignity and respect....but have a plan to kill them just in case.*

November 12, 2012, 01:20 PM	#8
Dr Big Bird PhD Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 779	The point of the thread was for clarification on the inaccuracy of the script. I'm not advocating altering weapons or proliferating illegal activity. I have seen multiple times where the ATF, Hollywood, or such have used a baseless premise for automatic fear mongering. The penny example is only one of them and seemed particularly strange. __________________ I told the new me, "Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'" But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back." Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor

November 13, 2012, 01:13 AM	#12
Dr Big Bird PhD Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 779	I'm reviewing the script, not writing it. It's illegal to tamper with the words unless I have the rights to it. And all around hunter asked my question too. I heard the airsoft guns had different sized lowers that were incompatible with AR uppers __________________ I told the new me, "Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'" But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back." Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor

November 12, 2012, 01:03 AM	#7
Quentin2 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Location: NorthWest USA Posts: 1,996	A thread like this should be deleted. Nothing good can come of discussing how a semiauto trigger group can be converted illegally to fire full auto. On the other hand bumpfiring appears to be legal but highly stupid. Your script (whatever that may be) would be more accurate discussing something like rubber bands or string that can be bought for pennies to *simulate* full auto fire (not true automatic fire).

November 12, 2012, 09:55 PM	#9
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	1. As pointed out, pennies could not fit behind the firing pin, and if they could, would stop the hammer from hitting the pin and the weapon would not fire at all. So that theory is just bizarre. 2. Regarding airsoft rifles, the problem was that some of them were so similar to the real thing that you could take the automatic airsoft lower and put a real firearm upper on it and conceivably have an unregistered machinegun. To the extent that can happen, it is a concern for ATF. Even with a lower that perfectly matched a machinegun lower, there are still some minor differences (often bolt carrier and firing pin flange diameter) that would make most semi-auto uppers on a machinegun lower slightly less reliable than an actual M4.

November 13, 2012, 12:48 AM	#11
Quentin2 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Location: NorthWest USA Posts: 1,996	So why go into detail at all? Why don't you just change the script to: "Across his lap is the AR 15 rifle. He has it mostly disassembled and is in the process of making a semiautomatic rifle a machine gun."

November 13, 2012, 07:07 AM	#14
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Looks like the OP's question is answered.