Original loads for .303

ChasingWhitetail91 · January 28, 2013, 02:48 PM

I have a 1942 English Mk1 No4 Long Branch .303 with the original 300 and 600 yard peeps. I had a member tell me they were 172 grain ball point loads, I just want to see if anyone can verify it. I'd like to use it for a brush gun with open sights for whitetail, but not at the expense of a massive entry and exit wound. Anyone hear of any rounds that shoot true with the original peeps that would be okay to use on medium game as i mentioned? I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but it seemed like my best shot.

wogpotter · January 28, 2013, 03:49 PM

Original Mark VII (7) ball ammo was a 174 Gr flat base full metal jacket. It had a muzzle velocity of 2450 FPS. The bullet was a little "odd" in that real Mk VII bullets were a "woodliegh" type with a 2 part core, lead at the rear & fiber or aluminium at the front. This made them longer than "conventional bullets" of the same weight & diameter. Your closest ballistic match currently would be a 180 Gr round nose type, but it might be a bit much, for medium sized game, being designed for heavy game like Elk & moose.

#1 & 2 being different 150 Gr SP & & #3 the pulled Mk VII ball in this comparison picture. #4 is a FMJ-BT for comparison purposes. Try to avoid BT bullets in Enfields as some just won't shoot with them.

I've handloaded 150 Gr flat base soft points to 2550 FPS & found at any responsible hunting distance particularly in brush country (out to 300yds) they'll duplicate the sights path pretty well.

ChasingWhitetail91 · January 28, 2013, 07:48 PM

Just found these online, just have to look around and see if anyone has some in stock. Pretty good reviews too.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/172...cket-box-of-20

Alabama Shooter · January 28, 2013, 10:12 PM

The wife uses Winchester 180gr SP. They shoot a couple of inches low at 100 yards and have excellent effects. On larger deer at range they will not exit.

Except they were $16 a box, not $32 when I bought them. And in stock.

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm...rodID=WNX303B1

jrothWA · January 29, 2013, 10:58 AM

the chamber has its shoulder 1/8" further forward, due to headspacing on the case rim.

When developed in British Ordnance board decided that any picked up round would chamber and fire regardless of any debris / mud on that round.

So, when reloading, you'll have to "neck size" only and doing a full length resize will result is short case life, due to over-working the brass.

Be careful and good luck.

wogpotter · January 29, 2013, 12:22 PM

Quote:

the chamber has its shoulder 1/8" further forward, due to headspacing on the case rim.

When developed in British Ordnance board decided that any picked up round would chamber and fire regardless of any debris / mud on that round.

So, when reloading, you'll have to "neck size" only and doing a full length resize will result is short case life, due to over-working the brass.

Kind of, sort of, but not really.

The .303 headspaces on the rim, true.
The shoulder shape & position is variable, true.
Neck (or partial full length) resizing improves case life, true.
It will however limit the rounds so processed to that exact rifles's chamber.

Not all Lee-Enfield chambers are that loose, look at these 3 cases.

One is a factory unfired case (with the FMJ bullet)
One is a fired, but not resized case, showing how much blow out there is (or isn't) when firing.
The 3rd is partial full length resized with a SP bullet in place.

Slamfire · January 29, 2013, 09:52 PM

I shot some Greek ball, Winchester Silvertip, and my handloads through a No 4 rifle. You can look at the velocities. I think IMR 4064 is an excellent powder in this cartridge and you can use 180 grain bullets and they will shoot close to what the 174's will print.

Code:

No. 4 MkII 

180 gr R-P (.310) RN 42 grs IMR 4064 Lee Scoop  3.1 Hansen cases Fed 210M
			 			
	30-Jul-91	T ≈  90 °F				
						
Ave Vel =	2470				 	 
Std Dev =	61				 	 
ES =	193				 	 
Low =	2430				 	 
High =	2623				 	 
N =	10					
 						
174 Greek Ball HXP 70				
			 			
	9-May-92	T ≈  70 °F				
						
Ave Vel =	2488			 	 	 
Std Dev =	12			 	 	 
ES =	27			 	 	 
Low =	2473			 	 	 
High =	2500			 	 	 
N =	5			 		
						
						
174 grain Greek Ball HXP 70				
					 	 
8 Feb 2012 T =  50 °F 				
						
Ave Vel =	2423					
Std Dev =	14					
ES =	53					
High =	2456					
Low =	2403					
N =	14					
						
						
180 grain Winchester Silvertip Factory Ammunition		
					 	
8 Feb 2012 T =  50 °F 				
						
Ave Vel =	2297				 	
Std Dev =	14				 	
ES =	46				 	
High =	2319				 	
Low =	2273				 	
N =	10

emcon5 · January 31, 2013, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Just found these online, just have to look around and see if anyone has some in stock. Pretty good reviews too.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/172...cket-box-of-20

That is FMJ ammo, and not suitable for hunting. This would be a better option:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/126...oint-box-of-20

As to matching the original peeps, I wouldn't worry about it. I would set the zero to 200 yards by swapping out the front sights to the proper height with whatever ammo you choose and go from there. With a 200 Yard zero it will be +/- 3" out to 300 yards with a 150gr bullet.

Tikirocker · February 1, 2013, 08:34 AM

Well said Wogs ...

I might just add something, if I may, on the point made about the avoidance of BT's in Enfields. Some people will come out swinging saying that BT's shoot just dandy in their Enfield and they would be right to say it. The issue of BT's does not apply to Enfields across the board but is specifically directed to No4's with 2 groove barrels. Ah huh ...

It has been observed over the years that as the 2 groove barreled No4's achieve more wear, an opportunity exists where blow-by with BT's becomes an issue which can result in the projectile leaving the muzzle in an unstable manner - thus causing problems with accuracy. A 2 groove with lots of life (meat on the lands) should present few problems however. You won't have any such problems with BT's in 5 groove barrels, as even with wear, there is more rifling for the projectile to contact.

Tiki.

wogpotter · February 1, 2013, 12:39 PM

That's true, my 42 Savage 2-groove No4 Mk1* was a horror story with BT bullets, but the Faz '55 No4 Mk2 is a shooter with them.

I don't know exactly what's available in Aus, but the bullet #4 in the pictures above was a 174 Gr FMJ-BT for a moisin-nagant. I tried them & they worked well in the '55 Faz, but it had a tight bore. I'm not sure how well the .3105" would do in some other barrels. For some odd reason in the U.S. most of the .311/.312" 150 Gr bullets are FB, but all the heavier 170~180 grainers are BT's! Go figure

ChasingWhitetail91 · February 2, 2013, 11:40 AM

I'm going to try to get a front sight that will shoot true with 150's, but if that fails it will just be a nice 180 target rifle. Thank you all for your suggestions.

wogpotter · February 2, 2013, 04:38 PM

Are you familiar with the numbers stamped on the base of your front sight & how to get the correct POI change by reading them?

January 28, 2013, 03:49 PM	#2
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Original Mark VII (7) ball ammo was a 174 Gr flat base full metal jacket. It had a muzzle velocity of 2450 FPS. The bullet was a little "odd" in that real Mk VII bullets were a "woodliegh" type with a 2 part core, lead at the rear & fiber or aluminium at the front. This made them longer than "conventional bullets" of the same weight & diameter. Your closest ballistic match currently would be a 180 Gr round nose type, but it might be a bit much, for medium sized game, being designed for heavy game like Elk & moose. #1 & 2 being different 150 Gr SP & & #3 the pulled Mk VII ball in this comparison picture. #4 is a FMJ-BT for comparison purposes. Try to avoid BT bullets in Enfields as some just won't shoot with them. I've handloaded 150 Gr flat base soft points to 2550 FPS & found at any responsible hunting distance particularly in brush country (out to 300yds) they'll duplicate the sights path pretty well. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.” Last edited by wogpotter; February 1, 2013 at 12:35 PM.

January 29, 2013, 10:58 AM	#5
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Just a word on reloading the .303 British.. the chamber has its shoulder 1/8" further forward, due to headspacing on the case rim. When developed in British Ordnance board decided that any picked up round would chamber and fire regardless of any debris / mud on that round. So, when reloading, you'll have to "neck size" only and doing a full length resize will result is short case life, due to over-working the brass. Be careful and good luck.

February 1, 2013, 08:34 AM	#9
Tikirocker Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2007 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 909	Well said Wogs ... I might just add something, if I may, on the point made about the avoidance of BT's in Enfields. Some people will come out swinging saying that BT's shoot just dandy in their Enfield and they would be right to say it. The issue of BT's does not apply to Enfields across the board but is specifically directed to No4's with 2 groove barrels. Ah huh ... It has been observed over the years that as the 2 groove barreled No4's achieve more wear, an opportunity exists where blow-by with BT's becomes an issue which can result in the projectile leaving the muzzle in an unstable manner - thus causing problems with accuracy. A 2 groove with lots of life (meat on the lands) should present few problems however. You won't have any such problems with BT's in 5 groove barrels, as even with wear, there is more rifling for the projectile to contact. Tiki. __________________ The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27 Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php

February 1, 2013, 12:39 PM	#10
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	That's true, my 42 Savage 2-groove No4 Mk1* was a horror story with BT bullets, but the Faz '55 No4 Mk2 is a shooter with them. I don't know exactly what's available in Aus, but the bullet #4 in the pictures above was a 174 Gr FMJ-BT for a moisin-nagant. I tried them & they worked well in the '55 Faz, but it had a tight bore. I'm not sure how well the .3105" would do in some other barrels. For some odd reason in the U.S. most of the .311/.312" 150 Gr bullets are FB, but all the heavier 170~180 grainers are BT's! Go figure __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

February 2, 2013, 11:40 AM	#11
ChasingWhitetail91 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 336	I'm going to try to get a front sight that will shoot true with 150's, but if that fails it will just be a nice 180 target rifle. Thank you all for your suggestions. __________________ Abraham Lincoln made all men free, Samuel Colt made them equal.

January 28, 2013, 02:48 PM	#1
ChasingWhitetail91 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 336	Original loads for .303 I have a 1942 English Mk1 No4 Long Branch .303 with the original 300 and 600 yard peeps. I had a member tell me they were 172 grain ball point loads, I just want to see if anyone can verify it. I'd like to use it for a brush gun with open sights for whitetail, but not at the expense of a massive entry and exit wound. Anyone hear of any rounds that shoot true with the original peeps that would be okay to use on medium game as i mentioned? I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but it seemed like my best shot. __________________ Abraham Lincoln made all men free, Samuel Colt made them equal.

January 28, 2013, 07:48 PM	#3
ChasingWhitetail91 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 336	Just found these online, just have to look around and see if anyone has some in stock. Pretty good reviews too. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/172...cket-box-of-20 __________________ Abraham Lincoln made all men free, Samuel Colt made them equal. Last edited by ChasingWhitetail91; January 28, 2013 at 09:49 PM.

January 28, 2013, 10:12 PM	#4
Alabama Shooter Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2012 Location: Sweet Home Posts: 886	The wife uses Winchester 180gr SP. They shoot a couple of inches low at 100 yards and have excellent effects. On larger deer at range they will not exit. Except they were $16 a box, not $32 when I bought them. And in stock. http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm...rodID=WNX303B1 __________________ Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.

February 2, 2013, 04:38 PM	#12
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Are you familiar with the numbers stamped on the base of your front sight & how to get the correct POI change by reading them? __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”