Hogdon Universal in .38 WC target load

MKK · October 27, 2009, 06:25 AM

I like the metering consistency of Universal compared to Bullseye in my Lee Pro 1000. Bullseye is good but Universal is almost dead nuts, it varies at the most .01 grains. Scanned the manuals and the pressures for a load of 2.8 gr. Bullseye is approximately the same as 3.8 gr. of Universal. Both in the 15,000 range. One is psi and the other cup. It appears that the Universal gives about 100 fps more than the BE load. Barrels lengths in the comparison are 7" for the Universal and 5.8" for the BE data. Soooo, maybe the additional 1.4" gives more burn time to the Universal resulting in the extra fps. I am not sure if that small amount would make up 100 fps though. The question is, has anyone used the 3.8 gr. load of Universal in a fully seated .38 148 gr. DEWC and if so, how did it work out accuracy wise and pressure wise? I will try some out in both 2.5" and 4" revolvers soon if anyone wants to know the results let me know. Ultimately I would like to use in my 52-1.

DWARREN123 · October 27, 2009, 07:11 AM

PSI and CUP are not the same. When comparing make sure to use the same measurement for both.
Different powders probably having different burn rates and that gives the difference in FPS.
I have used Universal in 38 SPL cases shot from Ruger 357 mags, GP100 (4inch) and SP-101 (3 1/16 inch) and both were accurate for range/plinking.
Good soft loads.

GP100man · October 27, 2009, 03:26 PM

Hodgdon says 3.5-4.0 so your rite in the middle , but there data is for a hbwc .you`ll be under 1,000 fps easy.

If no leading your good to go !!!

Alot of people compare universal to unique in burn speed .

I bet it`ll be a clean target load!!!

My exp. is with clays .

& i usually run 3 grs. of red dot under a 148wc.

Mark whiz · October 27, 2009, 07:59 PM

I know 4.0gr of Universal with 158gr LSWCs work marvelously well in my 2" & 4" revolvers...........so the 3.8gr for your 148gr DEWCs should be in the ballpark. Since you are going to fully seat them, you might consider trying 3.5gr first and work up if unhappy with them.

MKK · October 28, 2009, 06:11 AM

Thanks for the good input. I don't currently have any red dot but the 4.0 under a 158 gr SWC is a likely next load to try.

The reason I am somewhat concerned is that whenever I think about waivering from the long honored 2.7-3.0 load of bullseye under a 148 gr WC for my S&W 52-1, I feel like I am being reckless. In this case, the metering of the powder is so superior to bullseye, I want to work up a load for it. 3.8 grains seems to be just about right, plus I get a little more velocity which I hope to be able to reach out a bit further with while maintaining accuracy. Not to mention bullseye is a pretty dirty powder.

cup and psi are approximately the same, and that is where the risk comes in.

Mark whiz · October 29, 2009, 11:14 PM

The one thing I will warn you about with Universal is to get a good tight crimp on the bullets. It helps the powder burn more completely...............even then, you will notice a few unburned powder grains laying around under the gun................it's just what the powder does. I've used it with good results in .32ACP, .38Spcl, .357Mag, and .45ACP and all of those leave a sprinkle of powder lying around after a nice day at the range.

MKK · October 30, 2009, 06:17 AM

I picked up a pound at Cabelas in Mitchell, first time I have loaded it was last week. I worked up some of the 3.8 gr loads for the 148 gr WC and a box of .357 with 5.9 gr under 158 gr SWC's. Haven't had a chance to light any up yet though. It would be nice if some of the 52 owners would chime in if they had ever used Universal!

Mark whiz · October 30, 2009, 12:41 PM

For the record - my .357Mag load with Universal is 7.0gr with a 158gr LSWC. Out of my 4" Security Six this gives me 1184fps and lots of 1" groups out to 15 yards.

Also using 7.2gr with 158gr plated flatnose Ranier bullets in the same gun gives 1109fps and sub 1" groups.

You can't beat either of these loads with a stick.

MKK · October 31, 2009, 08:31 AM

That 7.0 load sounds like an attention getter. I used to load Unique in the high 6's but got away from it for no real good reason. I normally jump to the slow powder group for the 1,000 fpm plus loads under a 158 gr Winchester JHP with 13.7 gr of 2400 to tone down the pressure issue. I shoot the .357 loads from a Dan Wesson pistol pak.

**Unclenick** · October 31, 2009, 01:03 PM

A load used for a 158 grain LSWC may be unsafe with the 148 grain full wadcutter. Peak pressure is highly dependent on the amount of space the powder starts burning in. Because wadcutters seat more deeply than SWC's, that space is much smaller, which raises pressure rather dramatically. It is simply untrue that like bullet weights automatically mean like powder charge. You have to have the same seating depth into the case as well. Seating depth is not COL, but rather is the distance of the base of the bullet into the case.

Seating depth = case length + bullet length - COL.

Also, 2.8 grains of Bullseye does not equal 3.8 grains of Universal if the bullets are identical and seated to the same depth. The difference to obtain the same matching peak pressure is more like 5% to 10% (depending on the chambering). So, if you have a 2.7 to 3.0 grain load of Bullseye with the small space under the wadcutter, 2.8 to 3.2 grains of Universal should give you the same peak pressure with that deeply seated bullet. I cannot think of any instance in which a charge of Universal exceeds the charge weight of Unique that obtains the same pressure, though it is often a few percent smaller, putting its charge weight between the the Bullseye and Unique charge weights.

That said, the normal peak pressure for wadcutters is not high. They aim to achieve only 750 fps or so with 2.7 grains of Bullseye under a DEWC, and that peaks at about 12,000 psi. 3.0 grains makes more like 15,000 psi in that small burning space, so there is only a little headroom left. QuickLOAD predictions for Universal agree very closely with the velocity results Hodgdon has with the 158 grain SWC in a Winchester case, and gets them just within .38 Special SAAMI pressure. It did not agree in the case of the full wadcutter, though, giving a +P+ result. Computer programs have to be taken with a grain of salt, but QL has been more accurate than some manuals I have, so where it gets a higher pressure than a manual lists, I use QL's lower predicted limit and only work up from there with great caution, and, where possible, with a strain gauge instrument on the chamber. QL predicts just over 20,400 psi for 4.0 grains of Universal under a DEWC seated to 1.16" COL (bullet slightly beyond the case mouth) in a Winchester case with 24 grains of water capacity. Take that as you will.

MKK · October 31, 2009, 04:00 PM

This is the reason I wanted to do more investigation on this load. My Hodgdon manual which is only the basic reloader's manual does not state OAL as does the RELOADERS' GUIDE for Hercules Smokeless Powders does. The target load for 2.7 gr. of Bullseye with a 148 gr. LWC (target) load is 1.180 OAL. FPM is 785 and the psi is 14,600. The Hogdon manual states that the 3.8 gr load of Universal with a 148 gr. LHBWC has 940 fps with 15,600 CUP but with no OAL which leaves a question as to what the seating depth was for this information. Again, the reason for all of this is the precise metering that I get from Universal. Is Clays close to the same physical attributes as Universal? With the information you have given, I will try the 3.2 grains of Universal in the fully seated 148 gr DEWC round. Has anyone any experience with this?

October 27, 2009, 06:25 AM	#1
MKK Member Join Date: October 4, 2009 Location: heartland Posts: 75	Hogdon Universal in .38 WC target load I like the metering consistency of Universal compared to Bullseye in my Lee Pro 1000. Bullseye is good but Universal is almost dead nuts, it varies at the most .01 grains. Scanned the manuals and the pressures for a load of 2.8 gr. Bullseye is approximately the same as 3.8 gr. of Universal. Both in the 15,000 range. One is psi and the other cup. It appears that the Universal gives about 100 fps more than the BE load. Barrels lengths in the comparison are 7" for the Universal and 5.8" for the BE data. Soooo, maybe the additional 1.4" gives more burn time to the Universal resulting in the extra fps. I am not sure if that small amount would make up 100 fps though. The question is, has anyone used the 3.8 gr. load of Universal in a fully seated .38 148 gr. DEWC and if so, how did it work out accuracy wise and pressure wise? I will try some out in both 2.5" and 4" revolvers soon if anyone wants to know the results let me know. Ultimately I would like to use in my 52-1.

October 27, 2009, 07:11 AM	#2
DWARREN123 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: BETWEEN TN & KY Posts: 1,758	PSI and CUP are not the same. When comparing make sure to use the same measurement for both. Different powders probably having different burn rates and that gives the difference in FPS. I have used Universal in 38 SPL cases shot from Ruger 357 mags, GP100 (4inch) and SP-101 (3 1/16 inch) and both were accurate for range/plinking. Good soft loads. __________________ Have a nice day!

October 27, 2009, 03:26 PM	#3
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	Hodgdon says 3.5-4.0 so your rite in the middle , but there data is for a hbwc .you`ll be under 1,000 fps easy. If no leading your good to go !!! Alot of people compare universal to unique in burn speed . I bet it`ll be a clean target load!!! My exp. is with clays . & i usually run 3 grs. of red dot under a 148wc. __________________ GP100man

October 27, 2009, 07:59 PM	#4
Mark whiz Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Wabash, IN Posts: 227	I know 4.0gr of Universal with 158gr LSWCs work marvelously well in my 2" & 4" revolvers...........so the 3.8gr for your 148gr DEWCs should be in the ballpark. Since you are going to fully seat them, you might consider trying 3.5gr first and work up if unhappy with them. __________________ "Every moving thing that liveth, I give unto you as meat" (Gen 9:3) Aim small.........miss small. Trust God..........but keep your powder dry!

October 29, 2009, 11:14 PM	#6
Mark whiz Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Wabash, IN Posts: 227	The one thing I will warn you about with Universal is to get a good tight crimp on the bullets. It helps the powder burn more completely...............even then, you will notice a few unburned powder grains laying around under the gun................it's just what the powder does. I've used it with good results in .32ACP, .38Spcl, .357Mag, and .45ACP and all of those leave a sprinkle of powder lying around after a nice day at the range. __________________ "Every moving thing that liveth, I give unto you as meat" (Gen 9:3) Aim small.........miss small. Trust God..........but keep your powder dry!

October 28, 2009, 06:11 AM	#5
MKK Member Join Date: October 4, 2009 Location: heartland Posts: 75	Thanks for the good input. I don't currently have any red dot but the 4.0 under a 158 gr SWC is a likely next load to try. The reason I am somewhat concerned is that whenever I think about waivering from the long honored 2.7-3.0 load of bullseye under a 148 gr WC for my S&W 52-1, I feel like I am being reckless. In this case, the metering of the powder is so superior to bullseye, I want to work up a load for it. 3.8 grains seems to be just about right, plus I get a little more velocity which I hope to be able to reach out a bit further with while maintaining accuracy. Not to mention bullseye is a pretty dirty powder. cup and psi are approximately the same, and that is where the risk comes in.

October 30, 2009, 06:17 AM	#7
MKK Member Join Date: October 4, 2009 Location: heartland Posts: 75	I picked up a pound at Cabelas in Mitchell, first time I have loaded it was last week. I worked up some of the 3.8 gr loads for the 148 gr WC and a box of .357 with 5.9 gr under 158 gr SWC's. Haven't had a chance to light any up yet though. It would be nice if some of the 52 owners would chime in if they had ever used Universal!

October 30, 2009, 12:41 PM	#8
Mark whiz Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Wabash, IN Posts: 227	For the record - my .357Mag load with Universal is 7.0gr with a 158gr LSWC. Out of my 4" Security Six this gives me 1184fps and lots of 1" groups out to 15 yards. Also using 7.2gr with 158gr plated flatnose Ranier bullets in the same gun gives 1109fps and sub 1" groups. You can't beat either of these loads with a stick. __________________ "Every moving thing that liveth, I give unto you as meat" (Gen 9:3) Aim small.........miss small. Trust God..........but keep your powder dry!

October 31, 2009, 08:31 AM	#9
MKK Member Join Date: October 4, 2009 Location: heartland Posts: 75	That 7.0 load sounds like an attention getter. I used to load Unique in the high 6's but got away from it for no real good reason. I normally jump to the slow powder group for the 1,000 fpm plus loads under a 158 gr Winchester JHP with 13.7 gr of 2400 to tone down the pressure issue. I shoot the .357 loads from a Dan Wesson pistol pak.

October 31, 2009, 01:03 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	CAUTION! A load used for a 158 grain LSWC may be unsafe with the 148 grain full wadcutter. Peak pressure is highly dependent on the amount of space the powder starts burning in. Because wadcutters seat more deeply than SWC's, that space is much smaller, which raises pressure rather dramatically. It is simply untrue that like bullet weights automatically mean like powder charge. You have to have the same seating depth into the case as well. Seating depth is not COL, but rather is the distance of the base of the bullet into the case. Seating depth = case length + bullet length - COL. Also, 2.8 grains of Bullseye does not equal 3.8 grains of Universal if the bullets are identical and seated to the same depth. The difference to obtain the same matching peak pressure is more like 5% to 10% (depending on the chambering). So, if you have a 2.7 to 3.0 grain load of Bullseye with the small space under the wadcutter, 2.8 to 3.2 grains of Universal should give you the same peak pressure with that deeply seated bullet. I cannot think of any instance in which a charge of Universal exceeds the charge weight of Unique that obtains the same pressure, though it is often a few percent smaller, putting its charge weight between the the Bullseye and Unique charge weights. That said, the normal peak pressure for wadcutters is not high. They aim to achieve only 750 fps or so with 2.7 grains of Bullseye under a DEWC, and that peaks at about 12,000 psi. 3.0 grains makes more like 15,000 psi in that small burning space, so there is only a little headroom left. QuickLOAD predictions for Universal agree very closely with the velocity results Hodgdon has with the 158 grain SWC in a Winchester case, and gets them just within .38 Special SAAMI pressure. It did not agree in the case of the full wadcutter, though, giving a +P+ result. Computer programs have to be taken with a grain of salt, but QL has been more accurate than some manuals I have, so where it gets a higher pressure than a manual lists, I use QL's lower predicted limit and only work up from there with great caution, and, where possible, with a strain gauge instrument on the chamber. QL predicts just over 20,400 psi for 4.0 grains of Universal under a DEWC seated to 1.16" COL (bullet slightly beyond the case mouth) in a Winchester case with 24 grains of water capacity. Take that as you will. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 31, 2009, 04:00 PM	#11
MKK Member Join Date: October 4, 2009 Location: heartland Posts: 75	Thank you This is the reason I wanted to do more investigation on this load. My Hodgdon manual which is only the basic reloader's manual does not state OAL as does the RELOADERS' GUIDE for Hercules Smokeless Powders does. The target load for 2.7 gr. of Bullseye with a 148 gr. LWC (target) load is 1.180 OAL. FPM is 785 and the psi is 14,600. The Hogdon manual states that the 3.8 gr load of Universal with a 148 gr. LHBWC has 940 fps with 15,600 CUP but with no OAL which leaves a question as to what the seating depth was for this information. Again, the reason for all of this is the precise metering that I get from Universal. Is Clays close to the same physical attributes as Universal? With the information you have given, I will try the 3.2 grains of Universal in the fully seated 148 gr DEWC round. Has anyone any experience with this?