Reloading with 45-70 with Trail Boss for a Trapdoor

[ckpj99]

That's really interesting. I understand the pressure curves of black powder are different than smokeless, but according to Wolf he's running black powder loads that far exceed recommended pressures in his quest to replicate the original loads. Some of his loads run up to 25,000cup. Even given the different pressure curve, I would imagine running loads between 17,000 to 18,000cup would be plenty safe.

The other thing to consider is that smokeless powders have advanced a lot as well. I'm sure even old powder formulations like 3031 burn more consistently and are produced to higher standards now than they were 30 years ago.

The idea that blackpowder, which creates a relatively uncontrolled explosion, is less safe than a smokeless propellent, which burns at predictable rates regardless of air gaps and compression, so long as overall pressures are taken into account. Smokeless also doesn't heat up the barrel as much.

And isn't the weakest point of the trapdoor the action? Wouldn't that be the failure point.

I've put around 90 rounds through the rifle. 40 of those were Ultramax cowboy loads and the others were 3031 loads ranging from 34 to 41 grains. The action is as tight as ever. Who the heck knows how many rounds were put through it before that. The bore was dirty when I bought it, and if it had been dirty with black powder it would have had terrible pitting and corrosion.

Anyway, I'd gladly take a bet that it will make through 300 rounds, however I'd feel bad taking that action. I'll keep you updated. I have a range trip planned this week, and I'll be putting another 40 rounds through the rifle.

I'd really like to hear the logic behind these these claims. I've set out my thought process as to why I think its safe. I'd love to see some of the articles claiming the contrary and what evidence they have.

[Dragonflydf]

Think about blackpowder, I shoot 50 + rounds when I take mine out, it is no harder to load, no harder to clean, and when powder is in short supply, I could always find FFG powder.

It is your rifle, and as you said, smokeless powders have improved, but then so has black powder, and I can see using smokeless if you had no other options.
Just remember, the old gal is over 115+ years old, be gentle with her.

[mehavey]

Originally Posted by Larry Gibson

My own pressure tests (Oehler M43) in a 24" test barrel show;

415 gr Desperado 20-1 bullet
70 gr GOEX CTG
Starline cases
Fed 215M primers
19,100 psi
1233 fps

415 gr Desperado 20-1 bullet
Duplex; 7 gr 4759/ 54 gr GOEX CTG
Starline cases
Fed 215M primers
20,300 psi
1263 fps

The first BP-only/pressure load is consistent with all my readings -- and for BP data in
(my) Lyman 46th's/Ruger#1- only section. [14,000-16,000 CUP] I would be real interested how Wolf got 25,000 psi

(Take particular note of the jump in duplex pressures)

[ckpj99]

A quote from page 130 of Wolf's book:

"The M1881 bullet loaded with 70.0/FFFg (3F) gave a velocity of 1315 FPS (which agrees with the Arsenal velocity listing) with an average pressure of 25,800 CUP-29,600 CUP peak. The Arsenal listed average pressures of 25,000 pounds per square inch for this three F load (I am not sure of the exact conversion from PSI to CUP). SAAMI gives the average maximum pressure for any cartridge fired in the .45-70 at 28,000 CUP with 31,200 CUP absolute individual peak."

Granted many of his suggestions are below this pressure.

[ckpj99]

Dragonfly - I'm really not trying to argue, but you honestly think that black powder is easier to load and clean. From what I understand, commonly available hard cast bullets can't be used with black powder, so you either need to spend 2-3 times as much on soft lead bullets with black powder lube or start casting your own. Both of those options make loading harder.

And from what I've seen black powder cases need to be placed in soapy water right after shooting, the barrel needs to be cleaned immediately with hot water, you have to deal with fouling. I just don't understand the appeal.

Are you using a black powder replacement like Triple 7 or something?

[Dragonflydf]

Yes, I'm using Triple 7 and a hand cast 405gr bullet.
Lee casting molds are cheap and so is their lead pots, for about $80 you can have all you need to cast all the bullets you will ever need. You can get pure lead for about $2.00 a lb, so there is 7000gr in a lbs and 405gr per bullet or 17 bullets per lbs, what are you paying for someone else s bullets ?
I lube one of 2 ways, depending on how I feel, one is in a rolling tumbler with liquid alox, the other is a home brew of wax and hi temp wheel bearing grease and a double boiler.
As far as how much time, I will turn on the pot 30-45 minutes before I am ready to cast and set the mold on the pot to warm up. Once I start I can knock out 100 bullets in a very short amount of time.
As far as cleaning the brass, I throw it in the tumbler to clean, I have never washed them. As far as cleaning the gun, I use windex, water, a brass bore brush and cleaning patches and it does not take any longer than any other of my rifles.

Loading is easy, note your completed length, then note how far the bullet is seated in the case, fill with triple 7 to the base of the seated bullet, your done and the next time you go to the range, you will have fun smoking out every other shooter on the line.

One thing about casting, it opens up so many options, I started with 50cal ball for my blackpowder rifles, and for about $25 per caliber I added .38, 9mm, 45, 30 cal rifle, When people were running around looking for bullets, I was sitting out back making piles of them, it is nice to know I can shoot my SAA 45 all I want for next to nothing.

[ckpj99]

Dragon - Again, casting bullets and cleaning with windex and water is not easier than running smokeless.

[Dragonflydf]

Dragon - Again, casting bullets and cleaning with windex and water is not easier than running smokeless.

Is it any harder than cleaning with Hoppes and a bore brush and patches ?

I spray the windex, scrub with a brush, rinse with water, dry with patches and oil, it might take me a whole 2 or 3 minutes longer.

as you said, casting takes time, but you also pointed out you can buy cast bullets, I prefer to do it myself.

[Barnacle Brad]

Never mind the U.S. Military specified smokeless loads!* The Wholly Black crowd will never acknowledge smokeless and I would never try or waste my time trying to persuade them. Show me a gun and I can find a picture of one that some jack-wagon has blown up.

*Included during this period was limited production of the Model 1898 cartridge, a smokeless version with a case cannelure just below the base of the bullet. The smokeless cartridge was made beginning in April of 1898. Both smokeless and black powder loads were produced at the same time, so the presence or absence of the case cannelure is the obvious way to tell if one of these cartridges is a smokeless or black powder load.

For another perspective check out Larry Gibson

[mehavey]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...p-door-blow-up
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/Ya...m=1361409144/0

It can (and has) been done.

PostIt: Stay away from TrailBoss in these rifles. Its pressure spikes in about 2/3rds the time
as such standby's as 3031/4198.

PostPostIt: I shoot any number of black <----> smokeless (and a few duplex) cartridges
I'd still recommend the slower-build pressures of pure black in breech designs like
the trapdoor

[ckpj99]

Mehavey - that example, while showing a horrible result, does not really have anything to do with smokeless powder vs black powder. It says in the first post, that the rifle had a new barrel and the pictures clearly show that the barrel failed. The alleged load being used was "41 grains of RX7 with a 285 grain bullet," this is far from well tested. And throughout the post, the failure is blamed on a detonation due to a light loading, which would have taken out any rifle including lever guns and modern Rugers.

[ckpj99]

Mehavey - I totally agree about Trail Boss. It is clearly not appropriate for trapdoors, and probably not a great choice for 45-70 at all.

[mehavey]

...horrible result, [but] does not really have anything
to do with smokeless powder vs black powder

Suuuuuure it does...
You can't physically get enough black powder in the case* to have that happen.





*
Postscript: Notwithstanding any internet-hoary history of 85gr/under a 500gr bullet at
25,000_CUP, you [the rhetorical 'you'] try compressing even 70 grains enough to
actually get that bullet to seat.

Most all period-factory loads were of the 405/1,250-1,330fps variety (for a reason)

Postpostscript: On a lark, you might actually try some black in that trapdoor.
You'll find it actually easier/less involved to clean than smokeless. (1 damp patch
to push the crud out of the muzzle (and drop); 2 patches w/ some soapy
water; 2 patches to dry; 1 patch to oil (and then put it away)

[ckpj99]

Mehavey - by that logic, you're suggesting reloading any smokeless cartridge with under 100% case capacity is a reckless thing to do. The failure that occurred in your example wasn't that there was TOO MUCH powder in the case, but TOO LITTLE. This could happen with any modern cartridge and modern gun made today. So I guess reloading any smokeless cartridge is just too dangerous. Come on, man. Surely you can find a better example of a trapdoor blowing up than that one, it had a NEW barrel and the barrel failed, clearly something other than "oops, I shot smokeless" happened there.

Here's a few reasons why I won't be trying BP any time soon. I do about half my shooting at indoor ranges. In my area we have both 50 and 100 yard indoor ranges. The closest outdoor range, where I do the other half of my shooting, is almost an hour away. At the indoor ranges, you're not allowed to shoot BP because it's just too smokey.

Secondly, casting bullets and lubing them is a giant pain. I've watched dozen of demonstrations and I've seen all the equipment that makes it easier, and no matter what anyone says, it's a pain. I don't have dedicated reloading bench, so I set everything up when I make loads and then break it back down and store it when I'm done. I barely have enough space to do this. I'm not going to add casting and lubing to the process as well, especially when its only for one caliber.

Listen, I get it. Shooting smokeless loads might be ever so slightly harder on trapdoors than black powder loads. However, it's not like I'm running 1000 rounds a week through the gun. It's not a pristine collectors rifle. It's been altered, it's probably been refinished, and it may have even been rebarreled at some point. These things all but ruins it's collector value. All that being said, nothing anyone has said has convinced me that shooting smokeless reloads in a trapdoor is any more dangerous than any other rifle. You have to carefully select your powder and be careful when making your cartridges, just like any other loading.

Show me some evidence that says otherwise. Older guns are always going to be a bit more risky to shoot than newer ones.

[mehavey]

CKPJ, No one here has told you not to use smokeless.
Rather they have only recommended that BP might be
more suitable/foolproof/safer in the long run.

Please take care.