Using an old Ideal loader

Smoke & Recoil · December 21, 2013, 11:18 AM

He all,
I post this question in the general reloading section earlier but recieved
no response to my question, so I thougth I'd try here too.

My question is...has any one ever primed their brass using an old Ideal No. 4
loading tool with the mold attached ? and if you did, how did you prime your cases with the old cupped primer pin that was designed for the earlier round
top primers as opposed to the new style flat top primers ?

The tool I have is a Ideal No. 4, 38-40 with the bullet mold attached.

Thank you.

bedbugbilly · December 22, 2013, 09:27 AM

I have absolutely no experience with these but they do look interesting for sure. So . . I'll just ask a couple of questions. Is the original primer setting pin flat on the end or concave for the old rounded primer? If there isn't enough flat surface area on the end of the pin to seat a modern primer, I would assume that you'd have to either alter or replace it with a new primer setting pin that is flat on the end?

I have looked at a number of these over the years but never really paid attention to what you are referring to. Any chance you could post a close up photo of the primer setting pin to show what the end of it looks like?

Have you tried setting a primer with the original pin? You might eve slide a spent cartridge in and apply pressure with the setting pin to see whatkind of surface bearing area there is . I would think that using the original setting pin, especially if it has a concave tip, might cause a problem on a stubborn primer trying to go in to a tight primer hole? But those are just thoughts off the top of my head.

Have you cast any slugs from the mold? If so, how did they turn out?

I recently picked up a fairly decent Winchester mold for the 38 S & W Spl. I've cast some rounds out of it and they are pretty nice for a 100 year old mold. I thought it would be nice to cast some out of an original mold to use out of my New Vaquero. I'm using range lead and they drop at about .358 - .359 and right around 160 gr. + or -. I'm running them all through the 358 sizer just to keep things consistent - they are just a tad longer than the Lee 150 gr RN and make a nice looking bullet. So far, I haven't had a chance to get out and try them though. I love the old molds and old loading tools - they might be a little more "fuss and work" . . but there is a lot of life left in some of them as well as the enjoyment of using them to load the same way our a lot of our grandparents did.

Good luck with your loading tool and I hope you'll keep us posted on how it works! Fun and interesting stuff!

Smoke & Recoil · December 22, 2013, 03:27 PM

Here are some pictures...I hope.

Smoke & Recoil · December 22, 2013, 03:46 PM

Maybe now.

Smoke & Recoil · December 22, 2013, 03:57 PM

I'll try one more time.
[img][/img]

Smoke & Recoil · December 22, 2013, 05:31 PM

I've got it this time....
This is the primer pin/anvil.

PetahW · December 22, 2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoke & Recoil

[img][/img]

You've almost got it - the pics "Direct url" gets copied & pasted between the first set of bracketed "img" & the following bracket - no spaces.

IIRC, the old tong tools were used for setting modern primers via grinding the cupped face into a flat.

.

Smoke & Recoil · December 22, 2013, 05:57 PM

This is tough for me...

Smoke & Recoil · December 22, 2013, 07:15 PM

I haven't cased any bullets yet, but I did press one primer with it. As you can
see from the bottom picture, the primer has a small lump to it from the priming
pin/anvil.

bedbugbilly · December 23, 2013, 03:30 PM

Smoke & Recoil - thanks for the photos! I've never really paid attention when I've looked at these loading tools - is the primer setting pin removable? If so, you might look at making a replacement with a flat face? I can't really tell from the photo if the seated primer is "domed" above the back of the cartridge or does it "set in" as normally seated ones do? I'm assuming this is a rifle primer but if you could remove the old one (and save it) and get a new flat faced one made, it might work better to keep the face of the primer flat?

I imagine the seating of the primer is "by feel" with this tool - much like a modern day hand seater. Once the primer is seated to depth, you can tell?

Another thing - you might try sliding the primed, uncharged casing in your rifle and see if the primer you seated goes off as it should. I have a feeling it will. The bottom edge of the primer, once seated in to the primer pocket is going to bottom out and stop - I wouldn't think the slight dome you put on it would make a difference as long as the primer was below the surface of the back of the casing? If it sets above, it could be a problem.

As I said, I've never paid attention to the little details of these loader s but I have to beleive the original setting pin is probably made to be removed somehow as over time, they would wear or possibly get banged up and need to be replaced. Depending on the diameter of it, possibly an old de-capping punch from a die could be altered to the correct diameter and shaped with a flat face to work better with modern primers? Just a thought. The seating pin on my Lee hand primer is just a flat faced pin. Or, if the original seating pin is removable, could the opposite end be flattened and "coned" to the right diameter (similar to what you are showing for the concave end) and the seating pin just reversed with the flat end out?

mehavey · December 23, 2013, 04:37 PM

Watch YouTube HERE
Looks fairly straightforward

Smoke & Recoil · December 23, 2013, 06:23 PM

@ bedbugbilly and mehavey,

The primer pin is removable, but I don't care to remove it, it is held
in with just a simple pin that would have to be driven out. We, I can feel the seating process completely to the bottom of the pocket and I was gentle to
avoid the hump. What I'll do is fill the priming pin cup with hard solder, that way, I can remover the solder at anytime if I want to restore it.

I cast 100+ bullets with this loader today and the bullets dropped right out
with no problems. The only prep I had done with the mold was to smoke
black it with a candle. The bullets weigh in at 175 grains and the diameter
is .404, pushing them through the sizer...they drop out at .401.

Thank you mehavey for the Youtube link, I found it very interesting.

I'll post more pictures soon.

Smoke & Recoil · December 23, 2013, 07:41 PM

This was a relaxing day casting bullets.

December 21, 2013, 11:18 AM	#1
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	Using an old Ideal loader He all, I post this question in the general reloading section earlier but recieved no response to my question, so I thougth I'd try here too. My question is...has any one ever primed their brass using an old Ideal No. 4 loading tool with the mold attached ? and if you did, how did you prime your cases with the old cupped primer pin that was designed for the earlier round top primers as opposed to the new style flat top primers ? The tool I have is a Ideal No. 4, 38-40 with the bullet mold attached. Thank you.

December 22, 2013, 09:27 AM	#2
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I have absolutely no experience with these but they do look interesting for sure. So . . I'll just ask a couple of questions. Is the original primer setting pin flat on the end or concave for the old rounded primer? If there isn't enough flat surface area on the end of the pin to seat a modern primer, I would assume that you'd have to either alter or replace it with a new primer setting pin that is flat on the end? I have looked at a number of these over the years but never really paid attention to what you are referring to. Any chance you could post a close up photo of the primer setting pin to show what the end of it looks like? Have you tried setting a primer with the original pin? You might eve slide a spent cartridge in and apply pressure with the setting pin to see whatkind of surface bearing area there is . I would think that using the original setting pin, especially if it has a concave tip, might cause a problem on a stubborn primer trying to go in to a tight primer hole? But those are just thoughts off the top of my head. Have you cast any slugs from the mold? If so, how did they turn out? I recently picked up a fairly decent Winchester mold for the 38 S & W Spl. I've cast some rounds out of it and they are pretty nice for a 100 year old mold. I thought it would be nice to cast some out of an original mold to use out of my New Vaquero. I'm using range lead and they drop at about .358 - .359 and right around 160 gr. + or -. I'm running them all through the 358 sizer just to keep things consistent - they are just a tad longer than the Lee 150 gr RN and make a nice looking bullet. So far, I haven't had a chance to get out and try them though. I love the old molds and old loading tools - they might be a little more "fuss and work" . . but there is a lot of life left in some of them as well as the enjoyment of using them to load the same way our a lot of our grandparents did. Good luck with your loading tool and I hope you'll keep us posted on how it works! Fun and interesting stuff! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

December 22, 2013, 03:27 PM	#3
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	Here are some pictures...I hope. Last edited by Smoke & Recoil; December 22, 2013 at 03:34 PM.

December 22, 2013, 03:57 PM	#5
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	I'll try one more time. [img][/img] Last edited by Smoke & Recoil; December 22, 2013 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Trying to post pictures

December 22, 2013, 05:31 PM	#6
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	Primer pin I've got it this time.... This is the primer pin/anvil. Last edited by Smoke & Recoil; December 22, 2013 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Placing picture

December 22, 2013, 03:46 PM	#4
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	Maybe now.

December 22, 2013, 05:57 PM	#8
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	Last time This is tough for me...

December 23, 2013, 03:30 PM	#10
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Smoke & Recoil - thanks for the photos! I've never really paid attention when I've looked at these loading tools - is the primer setting pin removable? If so, you might look at making a replacement with a flat face? I can't really tell from the photo if the seated primer is "domed" above the back of the cartridge or does it "set in" as normally seated ones do? I'm assuming this is a rifle primer but if you could remove the old one (and save it) and get a new flat faced one made, it might work better to keep the face of the primer flat? I imagine the seating of the primer is "by feel" with this tool - much like a modern day hand seater. Once the primer is seated to depth, you can tell? Another thing - you might try sliding the primed, uncharged casing in your rifle and see if the primer you seated goes off as it should. I have a feeling it will. The bottom edge of the primer, once seated in to the primer pocket is going to bottom out and stop - I wouldn't think the slight dome you put on it would make a difference as long as the primer was below the surface of the back of the casing? If it sets above, it could be a problem. As I said, I've never paid attention to the little details of these loader s but I have to beleive the original setting pin is probably made to be removed somehow as over time, they would wear or possibly get banged up and need to be replaced. Depending on the diameter of it, possibly an old de-capping punch from a die could be altered to the correct diameter and shaped with a flat face to work better with modern primers? Just a thought. The seating pin on my Lee hand primer is just a flat faced pin. Or, if the original seating pin is removable, could the opposite end be flattened and "coned" to the right diameter (similar to what you are showing for the concave end) and the seating pin just reversed with the flat end out? __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

December 23, 2013, 04:37 PM	#11
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	Watch YouTube HERE Looks fairly straightforward

December 23, 2013, 06:23 PM	#12
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	@ bedbugbilly and mehavey, The primer pin is removable, but I don't care to remove it, it is held in with just a simple pin that would have to be driven out. We, I can feel the seating process completely to the bottom of the pocket and I was gentle to avoid the hump. What I'll do is fill the priming pin cup with hard solder, that way, I can remover the solder at anytime if I want to restore it. I cast 100+ bullets with this loader today and the bullets dropped right out with no problems. The only prep I had done with the mold was to smoke black it with a candle. The bullets weigh in at 175 grains and the diameter is .404, pushing them through the sizer...they drop out at .401. Thank you mehavey for the Youtube link, I found it very interesting. I'll post more pictures soon.