Bonehead attempts taper crimp

Hawkman · February 9, 2001, 08:04 AM

Hi, I'm the bonehead. I have successfully reloaded for my revolvers and rifles for several years. Decided to try to work up a hunting load for Glock 20 10mm with 6 inch barrel. Never done a semi-auto/taper crimp before.

I size the (new) brass, prime it, bell it, carefully measure the powder, and (following the instructions that came with the die set - rcbs carbide) seated the bullet and crimped in one operation.

None of the rounds would chamber (only did 10 before I checked). So I pulled the bullets, resized, and did it again. Same result - too fat down by the case web.

Felt like an idiot. HELP!

Thankyouforanyassistanceyoumayofferthisbonehead.

Hawk

PeterM · February 9, 2001, 09:07 AM

Hawkman:

I had exactly the same problem when I first started re-loading .45 ACP. It turned out to be the RCBS combination seater and crimper. Try doing these operations seperately and I'll bet it works out. To put the icing on the cake, you may want to try a Lee Factory Crimp die as well.

Hope this helps.

Pete

Peter M. Eick · February 9, 2001, 09:15 AM

Let me second the other Pete M.'s comments about the factory crimp. This is a wonderful tool and I now run EVERY round I can through one of these dies. It will solve your oversize problem, but I suggest you adjust your crimp to be a bit less agressive and allow the FC die to really put the final crimp on the 10mm rounds. By the way, Got to love those G20's for hunting. Nothing like 16 rnds of hot 10mm rounds.

Hawkman · February 9, 2001, 10:04 AM

Thanks for the replies. Just ordered the Lee FCD for the 10 and the .45acp (next project

)

Meanwhile I'll seat and crimp (carefully!)in separate operations.

Peter, if you have a load you wouldn't mind sharing for the 10mm I would like to try it. In Georgia you have to have 500 ft.lbs. remaining at 100 yds. to hunt with a handgun. I was thinking of working up a 180gr with Blue Dot and seeing if I could get that kind of performance.

Hawkman (also a "Pete")

9x45 · February 9, 2001, 10:26 AM

first you need to get the overall length right for the bullet you are using, then adjust the outside die body for the crimp. It is easy to get close using a factory round. you will still need a case gage to correctly check crimp with. you do not need a separate crimp die. There is nothing magic about the Lee crimp die, except that it's cheaper than anything else. It does not crimp any further down than any other die because of the large chamfer on the front

WalterGAII · February 9, 2001, 04:16 PM

There's nothing magic about the FCD, but it does post-size, which nobody else's crimp dies do. You also don't adjust the crimp by screwing in the die body, as with other dies. You have a crimp adjustment screw, which is not likely to overcrimp.

Peter M. Eick · February 9, 2001, 05:11 PM

Hawkman (pete),

Check your email. I dumped you all of my 10mm notes. You will be able to see my load development and comments on my 10mm's.

9x45 · February 9, 2001, 08:47 PM

Walter, the Lee factory crimp die does not post size! After you went on and on about those things, I went and bought 2 of them. I ran it side by side with my RCBS, Lymann, and Redding crimp dies. Check it out, I blued the test cases, so I could see exactly where it 'sized', and it is about .100" short of the other brands. If you don't believe me, I will send you the .45acp and 9mm Lee dies for FREE! What is different is the 'crimp' included angle, thats all. Autos size on the mouth, so a small change there is significant in loading.

Steve Smith · February 9, 2001, 09:53 PM

Hawkman, I'd bet that you could've gotten on fine with your single seat/crimp die. (I used two dies for thins, but you don't HAVE to). As 9x45 said, cake the die out quite a bit, place a factory round in the shellplate, raise the ram, and then turn the die down 'till you can feel the outside (crimp) touch the case...then turn the inside (seater) down 'till it touches the bullet. (how's that for a run-on sentence?) Now, place a sized case in the shellplate, and put a bullet on it. Run the ram up, and back down. Whip out the calipers, and measure the crimp and the bullet depth. compare these with what's in the manual, and adjust the die accordingly. It doesn't take much to crimp it correctly. Remember, you're NOT crimping the brass in towards the bullet, you're merely taking the bell out when you taper crimp.

I have a feeling that you just crimped it too much...OR is your sizing die going all the way down? IF not, you may be leaving a ring of "larger than the rest" brass where your sizing die isn't reaching.

alan · February 10, 2001, 12:44 AM

Hawkman:

Re your crimping problems, you might try the following changes in your routine.

1. Avoid seating/crimping in the same die, at the same time. Use a separate taper crimp die. By the way, what sort of press are you using.

2. Check the adjustment/setting of your sizer die. You might not have it screwed down far enough.

3. If you are using fired brass, particularly fired in Glocks, they seem to swell cases near the head, this could cause a feeding problem.

4. Try the following method of adjusting taper crimper. Use an empty, unprimed but sized case, in which you have seated a bullet to the oal you want to use. Run the ram to the top of it's travel, with dummy round in "shell holder" or "shell plate". Screw taper crimper down till you feel resistance. Lower ram. Turn die in by 1/8 to 1/4 turn increments, running ram to top of it's stroke. Measure dia over case mouth, it should be equal or smightly smaller than same place on a factory round. Also, you could measure oal of dummy round. Chamber the dummy from magazine, just as you would when actually firing. Remove dummy round and check oal. If bullet has been pushed deeper into case, you need more crimp. If it is o.k., then set the die's lock ring and forget it, the problem should be solved.

5. You can also check taper crimp as follows. Load dummy round as before, and make a preliminary setting of taper crimp die. Using a bathroom scale and a piece of board, stand dummy round, bullet down on scale platform. With board, put a load, steady pressure, on case head, till scale reads 20-25 pounds, possibly a bit less. If bullet truncates into case, you need more crimp.

Don Gwinn · February 10, 2001, 08:07 AM

I had exactly the same problem. Some good folks here did suggest the Lee Factory Crimp. However, I found that I don't need it. It takes a bit of extra time, but I now seat in one operation and crimp in another. Something about the pressure of the bullet being seated as the crimp is applied seems to cause excessive force to the case. In the last batch I did, (95 rds of .45 acp) I had no failures to load. I also invested in a Dillon case guage, which is cheap insurance.

I was also not trimming my cases to a standard length. I don't know if you do this or not, but I believe it will help with this problem. Some cases are so much longer than others in my collection of scrounged brass that if the die is adjusted for a short case a long one will bulge.

WalterGAII · February 10, 2001, 12:25 PM

9x45: I believe whatever you say about your experience with the Factory Crimp Dies; however, we must be missing something in communication. What exactly does post-sizing mean to you? It has nothing to do with the crimp. It has to do with the carbide sizing ring in the bottom of the FCD. I've felt the FCD resizing too many loaded cases. It'll remove bulges caused by not inserting the bullet straight, etc.

The crimping feature is just easier for me to adjust, by using the adjustment screw, than having to change the whole die body. Also, the design of the FCD precludes overcrimping and bulging the cases.

I already own FCD's in both 9mm and .45ACP, but I do appreciate your offer. Maybe somebody else here on TFL would like to try them and would appreciate your generous offer.

When reloading .40 Super, I use a .45 ACP Lee FCD to pre-size the decapped cases, doing so with the crimp screw unscrewed. I don't know of any other crimp dies that also full length size cases.

WalterGAII · February 10, 2001, 01:35 PM

9x45: It occurs to me that we might be talking about different dies. You're not calling the crimp die that comes with a Lee die set a Factory Crimp Die, are you? If that's the case, then, of course, they don't resize. They're also not Lee Factory Crimp Dies.

Peter M. Eick · February 10, 2001, 03:11 PM

I think WalterGAII has the right explaination. The factory crimp die does not resize every round, it only knocks back any rounds that are slightly "off".

I see it do the most effect on my 38 special rounds and the 380 auto rounds. he problem with the 38 special is that the brass length varies a bit (some are short and some are right at the max trim length) so the roll crimp will some times raise a bulge that hinders clean insertion. The FC die resizes that bulge and all is great. I do not even have to use the crimp part, just getting the first 1/4" of the brass into the die does the trick. The same is true for my 380 rounds (such is life of range brass).

If the die does not size your rounds at all, then you are correct and you are only crimping, but if you are using a meddle of brass from different sources, you may need it.

ps: I am looking forward to the day that all of my mixed brass fails and I am only using Starline. But until then, I cannot just throw out good brass!

Hawkman · February 10, 2001, 09:21 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions/info. I think I was crimping too far down; am still working on procedure. BTW, took the first 10 loaded rounds and fed them back through the sizing die (after removing the depriming pin). Chambered and fired perfectly.

I'll get this all figured out!

Hawkman

9x45 · February 10, 2001, 09:39 PM

Walter, here's my setup by stations; 1st, resize and deprime, 2nd, prime only, 3rd, bell only, 4th, powder charge, 5th, seat bullet only, last, crimp only. I have substitued the Lee die in the last station, like I said, having blued the cases, and checked them against RCBS, Redding, and Lymann. There is more blueing removed by any other die except Lee.

I will agree that Lee has one clever thing, the sleeved depriming pin. I have busted lots of derpiming pins because of out of center flash holes, rocks stuck in primer hole, but the Lee pin will slip before it breaks... I am not throwing rocks here, I will just stick with my proven dies, and the Lees do need a good throrough Scotchbriting to perform wel

WalterGAII · February 11, 2001, 12:21 AM

One of us is speaking a different language. (Or perhaps I'm speaking in tongues and just don't know it.) The Lee Factory Crimp Die isn't designed to size to the same dimension as a sizer/decapper die. Your exercise in bluing was a non-starter. The Factory Crimp Die will remove bulges caused by poor crimping, etc. As previously stated, I also use it for the initial sizing of .40 Super brass, since I don't have a .40 Super sizing die. I follow up with a .400 Cor-Bon die for final sizing and bumping the shoulder. (.40 Super brass expands more than does .45ACP brass, due to higher pressures.)

Per my repeated posts, none of the other die manufacturers that I know of manufacture a crimp die that also sizes. That's about as clear as I'm capable of making it. I've never questioned your choice of diemakers. All the ones that you mention are excellent; nothing that you've posted about the features of the other dies relates to the point that's been made in this thread by me and others about the post-sizing capacity of Lee Factory Crimp Dies.

February 9, 2001, 09:15 AM	#3
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	Let me second the other Pete M.'s comments about the factory crimp. This is a wonderful tool and I now run EVERY round I can through one of these dies. It will solve your oversize problem, but I suggest you adjust your crimp to be a bit less agressive and allow the FC die to really put the final crimp on the 10mm rounds. By the way, Got to love those G20's for hunting. Nothing like 16 rnds of hot 10mm rounds. __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

February 9, 2001, 05:11 PM	#7
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	Hawkman (pete), Check your email. I dumped you all of my 10mm notes. You will be able to see my load development and comments on my 10mm's. __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

February 10, 2001, 08:07 AM	#11
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	I had exactly the same problem. Some good folks here did suggest the Lee Factory Crimp. However, I found that I don't need it. It takes a bit of extra time, but I now seat in one operation and crimp in another. Something about the pressure of the bullet being seated as the crimp is applied seems to cause excessive force to the case. In the last batch I did, (95 rds of .45 acp) I had no failures to load. I also invested in a Dillon case guage, which is cheap insurance. I was also not trimming my cases to a standard length. I don't know if you do this or not, but I believe it will help with this problem. Some cases are so much longer than others in my collection of scrounged brass that if the die is adjusted for a short case a long one will bulge. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

February 10, 2001, 03:11 PM	#14
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	9x45 I think WalterGAII has the right explaination. The factory crimp die does not resize every round, it only knocks back any rounds that are slightly "off". I see it do the most effect on my 38 special rounds and the 380 auto rounds. he problem with the 38 special is that the brass length varies a bit (some are short and some are right at the max trim length) so the roll crimp will some times raise a bulge that hinders clean insertion. The FC die resizes that bulge and all is great. I do not even have to use the crimp part, just getting the first 1/4" of the brass into the die does the trick. The same is true for my 380 rounds (such is life of range brass). If the die does not size your rounds at all, then you are correct and you are only crimping, but if you are using a meddle of brass from different sources, you may need it. ps: I am looking forward to the day that all of my mixed brass fails and I am only using Starline. But until then, I cannot just throw out good brass! __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

February 9, 2001, 08:04 AM	#1
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 445	Hi, I'm the bonehead. I have successfully reloaded for my revolvers and rifles for several years. Decided to try to work up a hunting load for Glock 20 10mm with 6 inch barrel. Never done a semi-auto/taper crimp before. I size the (new) brass, prime it, bell it, carefully measure the powder, and (following the instructions that came with the die set - rcbs carbide) seated the bullet and crimped in one operation. None of the rounds would chamber (only did 10 before I checked). So I pulled the bullets, resized, and did it again. Same result - too fat down by the case web. Felt like an idiot. HELP! Thankyouforanyassistanceyoumayofferthisbonehead. Hawk

February 9, 2001, 09:07 AM	#2
PeterM Member Join Date: March 14, 1999 Location: Kansas Posts: 17	Hawkman: I had exactly the same problem when I first started re-loading .45 ACP. It turned out to be the RCBS combination seater and crimper. Try doing these operations seperately and I'll bet it works out. To put the icing on the cake, you may want to try a Lee Factory Crimp die as well. Hope this helps. Pete

February 9, 2001, 10:04 AM	#4
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 445	Thanks for the replies. Just ordered the Lee FCD for the 10 and the .45acp (next project ) Meanwhile I'll seat and crimp (carefully!)in separate operations. Peter, if you have a load you wouldn't mind sharing for the 10mm I would like to try it. In Georgia you have to have 500 ft.lbs. remaining at 100 yds. to hunt with a handgun. I was thinking of working up a 180gr with Blue Dot and seeing if I could get that kind of performance. Hawkman (also a "Pete")

February 9, 2001, 10:26 AM	#5
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	first you need to get the overall length right for the bullet you are using, then adjust the outside die body for the crimp. It is easy to get close using a factory round. you will still need a case gage to correctly check crimp with. you do not need a separate crimp die. There is nothing magic about the Lee crimp die, except that it's cheaper than anything else. It does not crimp any further down than any other die because of the large chamfer on the front

February 9, 2001, 04:16 PM	#6
WalterGAII Junior member Join Date: November 7, 1999 Posts: 1,516	There's nothing magic about the FCD, but it does post-size, which nobody else's crimp dies do. You also don't adjust the crimp by screwing in the die body, as with other dies. You have a crimp adjustment screw, which is not likely to overcrimp.

February 9, 2001, 08:47 PM	#8
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Walter, the Lee factory crimp die does not post size! After you went on and on about those things, I went and bought 2 of them. I ran it side by side with my RCBS, Lymann, and Redding crimp dies. Check it out, I blued the test cases, so I could see exactly where it 'sized', and it is about .100" short of the other brands. If you don't believe me, I will send you the .45acp and 9mm Lee dies for FREE! What is different is the 'crimp' included angle, thats all. Autos size on the mouth, so a small change there is significant in loading.

February 9, 2001, 09:53 PM	#9
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Hawkman, I'd bet that you could've gotten on fine with your single seat/crimp die. (I used two dies for thins, but you don't HAVE to). As 9x45 said, cake the die out quite a bit, place a factory round in the shellplate, raise the ram, and then turn the die down 'till you can feel the outside (crimp) touch the case...then turn the inside (seater) down 'till it touches the bullet. (how's that for a run-on sentence?) Now, place a sized case in the shellplate, and put a bullet on it. Run the ram up, and back down. Whip out the calipers, and measure the crimp and the bullet depth. compare these with what's in the manual, and adjust the die accordingly. It doesn't take much to crimp it correctly. Remember, you're NOT crimping the brass in towards the bullet, you're merely taking the bell out when you taper crimp. I have a feeling that you just crimped it too much...OR is your sizing die going all the way down? IF not, you may be leaving a ring of "larger than the rest" brass where your sizing die isn't reaching.

February 10, 2001, 12:44 AM	#10
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Hawkman: Re your crimping problems, you might try the following changes in your routine. 1. Avoid seating/crimping in the same die, at the same time. Use a separate taper crimp die. By the way, what sort of press are you using. 2. Check the adjustment/setting of your sizer die. You might not have it screwed down far enough. 3. If you are using fired brass, particularly fired in Glocks, they seem to swell cases near the head, this could cause a feeding problem. 4. Try the following method of adjusting taper crimper. Use an empty, unprimed but sized case, in which you have seated a bullet to the oal you want to use. Run the ram to the top of it's travel, with dummy round in "shell holder" or "shell plate". Screw taper crimper down till you feel resistance. Lower ram. Turn die in by 1/8 to 1/4 turn increments, running ram to top of it's stroke. Measure dia over case mouth, it should be equal or smightly smaller than same place on a factory round. Also, you could measure oal of dummy round. Chamber the dummy from magazine, just as you would when actually firing. Remove dummy round and check oal. If bullet has been pushed deeper into case, you need more crimp. If it is o.k., then set the die's lock ring and forget it, the problem should be solved. 5. You can also check taper crimp as follows. Load dummy round as before, and make a preliminary setting of taper crimp die. Using a bathroom scale and a piece of board, stand dummy round, bullet down on scale platform. With board, put a load, steady pressure, on case head, till scale reads 20-25 pounds, possibly a bit less. If bullet truncates into case, you need more crimp.

February 10, 2001, 12:25 PM	#12
WalterGAII Junior member Join Date: November 7, 1999 Posts: 1,516	9x45: I believe whatever you say about your experience with the Factory Crimp Dies; however, we must be missing something in communication. What exactly does post-sizing mean to you? It has nothing to do with the crimp. It has to do with the carbide sizing ring in the bottom of the FCD. I've felt the FCD resizing too many loaded cases. It'll remove bulges caused by not inserting the bullet straight, etc. The crimping feature is just easier for me to adjust, by using the adjustment screw, than having to change the whole die body. Also, the design of the FCD precludes overcrimping and bulging the cases. I already own FCD's in both 9mm and .45ACP, but I do appreciate your offer. Maybe somebody else here on TFL would like to try them and would appreciate your generous offer. When reloading .40 Super, I use a .45 ACP Lee FCD to pre-size the decapped cases, doing so with the crimp screw unscrewed. I don't know of any other crimp dies that also full length size cases.

February 10, 2001, 01:35 PM	#13
WalterGAII Junior member Join Date: November 7, 1999 Posts: 1,516	9x45: It occurs to me that we might be talking about different dies. You're not calling the crimp die that comes with a Lee die set a Factory Crimp Die, are you? If that's the case, then, of course, they don't resize. They're also not Lee Factory Crimp Dies.

February 10, 2001, 09:21 PM	#15
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 445	Thanks for all the suggestions/info. I think I was crimping too far down; am still working on procedure. BTW, took the first 10 loaded rounds and fed them back through the sizing die (after removing the depriming pin). Chambered and fired perfectly. I'll get this all figured out! Hawkman

February 10, 2001, 09:39 PM	#16
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Walter, here's my setup by stations; 1st, resize and deprime, 2nd, prime only, 3rd, bell only, 4th, powder charge, 5th, seat bullet only, last, crimp only. I have substitued the Lee die in the last station, like I said, having blued the cases, and checked them against RCBS, Redding, and Lymann. There is more blueing removed by any other die except Lee. I will agree that Lee has one clever thing, the sleeved depriming pin. I have busted lots of derpiming pins because of out of center flash holes, rocks stuck in primer hole, but the Lee pin will slip before it breaks... I am not throwing rocks here, I will just stick with my proven dies, and the Lees do need a good throrough Scotchbriting to perform wel

February 11, 2001, 12:21 AM	#17
WalterGAII Junior member Join Date: November 7, 1999 Posts: 1,516	One of us is speaking a different language. (Or perhaps I'm speaking in tongues and just don't know it.) The Lee Factory Crimp Die isn't designed to size to the same dimension as a sizer/decapper die. Your exercise in bluing was a non-starter. The Factory Crimp Die will remove bulges caused by poor crimping, etc. As previously stated, I also use it for the initial sizing of .40 Super brass, since I don't have a .40 Super sizing die. I follow up with a .400 Cor-Bon die for final sizing and bumping the shoulder. (.40 Super brass expands more than does .45ACP brass, due to higher pressures.) Per my repeated posts, none of the other die manufacturers that I know of manufacture a crimp die that also sizes. That's about as clear as I'm capable of making it. I've never questioned your choice of diemakers. All the ones that you mention are excellent; nothing that you've posted about the features of the other dies relates to the point that's been made in this thread by me and others about the post-sizing capacity of Lee Factory Crimp Dies.