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Old August 16, 2013, 07:45 AM   #51
daddyo
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1. Situational Awareness (because we cannot allow a bad guy to get the drop on us)

2. Tactically Sound (because we need to deploy the life saving tactics as we prepare to fight off the threat)

3. Get R Done (much have the skills to put bullets on target as fast as possible and in a vast variety of positions)

4. Go Animal (Must be ready to become extremely violent without delay or hesitation)

5. Keep Your Head (must be able to return to normal once the threat is over)

My list based on the progression of a fight. I realize that 2 and 3 are not necessarily a mindset but more a skill set but they will give us the confidence to know we can get the job done which is mindset.
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Old August 16, 2013, 09:04 AM   #52
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Quote:
1. Situational Awareness (because we cannot allow a bad guy to get the drop on us)

2. Tactically Sound (because we need to deploy the life saving tactics as we prepare to fight off the threat)

3. Get R Done (much have the skills to put bullets on target as fast as possible and in a vast variety of positions)

4. Go Animal (Must be ready to become extremely violent without delay or hesitation)

5. Keep Your Head (must be able to return to normal once the threat is over)

My list based on the progression of a fight. I realize that 2 and 3 are not necessarily a mindset but more a skill set but they will give us the confidence to know we can get the job done which is mindset.

A perfect world.
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Old August 16, 2013, 10:22 AM   #53
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A perfect world.
Perfect practice makes perfect. Perfect mindset makes perfect.

Isn't the goal to strive for perfection?
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Old August 16, 2013, 10:23 AM   #54
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I'm deleting posts that just contain undocumented assumptions and snark. Let's keep this at a literate and factual level.

Second - I would disagree with some statements.

Posting that you would 'go animal' is not going to look good in court. Yes, we have evidence of similar statements being used against defendants.

Next, the statements about training at 'bad breath distance' make little sense. Training is useful for all levels and distance of the encounter.
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Old August 16, 2013, 10:25 AM   #55
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Perfect practice makes perfect. Perfect mindset makes perfect.

Isn't the goal to strive for perfection?

The lessons we learn are written on the tombstones of others.

How do you think they thought of their training? I doubt they called it "perfection" or searched to seek such a fairy tale claim.

The goal is to strive for survival.
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Old August 16, 2013, 10:32 AM   #56
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There is no such thing as perfect practice, because humans are imperfect. There is no such thing as perfect mindset, because humans are imperfect.

Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Yes, we should be striving for perfection – but we should also recognize that perfection will always be beyond our reach. When we practice, we should first learn the best ways to do things. This means learning from others, not simply from our own ideas of how things "ought" to be.

There is nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel. However, when we do so, we should be sure that we are not trying to drive on trapezoidal wheels with offset axles.

Also, just in case my earlier post was unclear: of course you aim for the upper center chest when possible. That is where the good stuff is, such as the largest blood vessels in the human body, the heart, and other vital organs. The goal is to shut down the attacker as quickly as possible, and exsanguination is as good a way to do that as any other. However, it is incorrect to say that a shot or two to the chest "usually" ends in death. The facts are simply otherwise, as those who work the emergency room in any trauma center could tell you.

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Old August 16, 2013, 10:36 AM   #57
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There is no such thing as perfect practice, because humans are imperfect. There is no such thing as perfect mindset, because humans are imperfect.

Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Yes, we should be striving for perfection – but we should also recognize that perfection will always be beyond our reach. When we practice, we should first learn the best ways to do things. This means learning from others, not simply from our own ideas of how things "ought" to be.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.


I recommend that daddyo reads this book by Rory Miller.
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Old August 16, 2013, 10:37 AM   #58
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OldMarksman,

Thank you for posting the link to the Force Science Institute study. The experienced law enforcement officers who create those studies and do that research provide an invaluable resource for the LEO community. I just wish they did more on the ordinary armed citizen side of the equation. Can't have everything, I guess!

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Old August 16, 2013, 10:52 AM   #59
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The lessons we learn are written on the tombstones of others.

How do you think they thought of their training? I doubt they called it "perfection" or searched to seek such a fairy tale claim.

The goal is to strive for survival.
My guess is that you aren't a fan of the Glock slogan LOL.

I wonder if it really does any good to nitpick this much.

We strive for survival. The way I know how to survive is through the best training possible. So if I strive to be perfect in my response to the threat at hand, its saying I'm attempting to be perfect in my execution of that training. So my strive for perfection is one and the same with striving for survival. After all my training is done to give me a better chance at survival.
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Old August 16, 2013, 10:56 AM   #60
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Posting that you would 'go animal' is not going to look good in court. Yes, we have evidence of similar statements being used against defendants.
What would be the judicially acceptable adjective to describe the commonly taught mental conditioning to surviving a violent encounter?
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:01 AM   #61
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We strive for survival. The way I know how to survive is through the best training possible. So if I strive to be perfect in my response to the threat at hand, its saying I'm attempting to be perfect in my execution of that training. So my strive for perfection is one and the same with striving for survival. After all my training is done to give me a better chance at survival.
Not going to further explain myself. I'm sure one day you'll get it though. Did you click on that link I provided? Really good book man, check it out.

Quote:
My guess is that you aren't a fan of the Glock slogan LOL.
Ha, it's just that. A slogan. I do love my Glock's though.

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What would be the judicially acceptable adjective to describe the commonly taught mental conditioning to surviving a violent encounter?
Yes, Frank is right.. You don't want to be saying stuff like that.

The intent is to save yourself and stop the threat. Keyword: Stop.

"Killing" and "Going animal" show's an entirely different motive.
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:07 AM   #62
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Books by Pax, Ayoob, Gila Hayes and others - all describe the appropriate views of self-defense usage. Easy to find on Amazon.

So do courses by such folks. I recommend them rather than making up your own inflammatory rules.

If you truly get into it - use Google scholar to find law review articles on using lethal force in self-defense or the excellent book - Killing in Self-defense by Leverick. It is a touch dense for the average gun world prose but truly enlightening.
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:10 AM   #63
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There is no such thing as perfect practice, because humans are imperfect. There is no such thing as perfect mindset, because humans are imperfect.

Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Yes, we should be striving for perfection – but we should also recognize that perfection will always be beyond our reach. When we practice, we should first learn the best ways to do things. This means learning from others, not simply from our own ideas of how things "ought" to be.
I consider perfect practice/mindset/tactics to be those that I believe give me the best chance at surviving a violent encounter. Always subject to change of course which then makes them not perfect. Still at the time they are perfect. Nothing I know of that is better.
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:11 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Constantine
...Yes, Frank is right.. You don't want to be saying stuff like that...
Actually, Glenn said it here; but I agree. We can talk about a swift and decisive response or a swift and tumultuous response.
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:12 AM   #65
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What would be the judicially acceptable adjective to describe the commonly taught mental conditioning to surviving a violent encounter?
That is an excellent, and very thoughtful, question.

I am a fan of: "If you have to fight, fight like a cornered cat." That is my catchphrase. Some people think this just means "Fight really hard." That is not it, not at all. What it means is to fight with a goal in mind. When a cat is cornered, she's not interested in fighting with whatever has threatened her – but she will do whatever it takes to get to safety. Reaching down to get your hands on her is like sticking your hand into a blender. Bad idea!

A cornered cat will harm you if she absolutely must. But her goal is not to hurt you, and it isn't to not hurt you. Her goal is simply to get to safety.

Whether any of this is court-defensible, I don't know. Have not tried it yet. But I can articulate how this phrase fits very neatly into the legal realities of self-defense. Any similar phrase that you choose should be able to do the same thing.

Also, I second Constantine's recommendation. Rory Miller's work is excellent.

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Old August 16, 2013, 11:16 AM   #66
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For someone who is trying to train others, what adjective can be used to describe the act of doing what is necessary to survive? So that they may understand how we must drop our civilized nature and adopt a temporary nasty one?

I can still explain that the use of certain adjectives is not recommended.
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:17 AM   #67
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Actually, Glenn said it here; but I agree. We can talk about a swift and decisive response or a swift and tumultuous response.
Yes, I can see it now.

On the stand.

First PO responding to call : "He then stated he 'went animal' and 'killed' the attacker."

VS.

First PO responding to call : "He then stated, he exercised the means necessary to stop the attack and was willing to sign a complaint."
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:26 AM   #68
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Quote:
That is an excellent, and very thoughtful, question.

I am a fan of: "If you have to fight, fight like a cornered cat." That is my catchphrase. Some people think this just means "Fight really hard." That is not it, not at all. What it means is to fight with a goal in mind. When a cat is cornered, she's not interested in fighting with whatever has threatened her – but she will do whatever it takes to get to safety. Reaching down to get your hands on her is like sticking your hand into a blender. Bad idea!

A cornered cat will harm you if she absolutely must. But her goal is not to hurt you, and it isn't to not hurt you. Her goal is simply to get to safety.

Whether any of this is court-defensible, I don't know. Have not tried it yet. But I can articulate how this phrase fits very neatly into the legal realities of self-defense. Any similar phrase that you choose should be able to do the same thing.

Also, I second Constantine's recommendation. Rory Miller's work is excellent.

pax
Funny I currently use a mother lion LOL.
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:28 AM   #69
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Just for example, variants of:

Always cheat and Have plan to kill everyone from training classes have been brought up in cases.

Your defense attorney has to present a coherent story of why you acted the way you did according to the jury research literature. The DA will present his or her coherent version. If theirs started with 'he was going animal' - that will stick in the jury's mind.

Pax's animal - fighting like a cornered cat gives a metaphor of defense as compared to being off the rails.

My favorite Glock example - went to a new range to try it out. The SOs there check your gun before you shoot to see if it is ok. High class outfit. The guy ahead of me had the back plate of his Glock replaced with one with the Punisher skull logo. Now in an ambiguous shoot, when that gun is shown to the jury - oh, dear - and you shot the teenager (there are several cases I know other than the one you are thinking about) because you felt you had to be an animal, wanted to cheat and had a plan to kill?
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:37 AM   #70
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It absolutely horrible that we live in a Country that using an adjective to describe the mental preparation needed to properly defend yourself from a violent attacker, could get you in trouble.

I still have to believe that in the vast majority of self defense cases, the justification would be overwhelming. After all we are pulling our firearm to stop the imminent threat of death or grave bodily injury. Seems that this is overkill.
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:40 AM   #71
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What do I do now that I have already said it?
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:53 AM   #72
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Well, it never hurts to post your current thoughts – as opposed to your previous ones.

pax

"A man should never be ashamed to own he has been in the wrong, which is but saying, in other words, that he is wiser today than he was yesterday." ~ Alexander Pope
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Old August 16, 2013, 12:00 PM   #73
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Then just stop talking!
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Old August 16, 2013, 01:52 PM   #74
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...What would be the judicially acceptable adjective ...
How about this... "Once you have decided that you have no alternative but to defend yourself, and the time for action has arrived, you must act in a forceful and decisive manner. Be vigorous, and without hesitation."

That is how an animal would act. When I stumble upon a deer while hiking, it stands completely still, until it has decided it must move... and then IT MOVES. Small mammals like rabbits and chipmunks are even more impressive in their ability to go from frozen to explosive speed in the blink of an eye.

But what I said sounds so much more civilized than "go animal". Appearances count, even when they shouldn't.

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Old August 16, 2013, 02:37 PM   #75
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Posted by daddyo: It absolutely horrible that we live in a Country that using an adjective to describe the mental preparation needed to properly defend yourself from a violent attacker, could get you in trouble.
On the other hand, saying something that can be interpreted as having the mindset to harm someone for the sake of doing so can get you in trouble anywhere. Why shouldn't one expect it to?

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I still have to believe that in the vast majority of self defense cases, the justification would be overwhelming. After all we are pulling our firearm to stop the imminent threat of death or grave bodily injury. Seems that this is overkill.
That's what the person who pulled the gun says happened. But there was no sound stage, no video taken from multiple angles, showing every possibly relevant aspect from start to finish.

There is evidence that deadly force has been used, and the user claims to have been acting in self defense. There is some forensic evidence proving who shot whom.. There may or may not be eyewitness or earwitness testimony from persons other than the shooter, all of it suspect to at least some extent and some or all of it possibly unfavorable to the self-proclaimed defender. Using only what can be pieced together after the fact, which will necessarily be incomplete and which will likely be unclear and which may be contradictory, it will be necessary for others to decide whether or not the person who claims to have been defending himself...
  • Was in any way at fault in starting the confrontation, and if not,
  • was in fact faced with imminent danger of death or serious, crippling bodily harm, and if so,
  • had any means to avoid such harm other than deadly force, and if not,
  • used no more force than had been absolutely necessary.

That virtual white hat that the "defender" sees himself wearing is not apparent to anyone else in the real world.

What he has said, put in e-mail, posted, put up in his yard, stuck to his bumper, and/or worn on his t-shirt can go a long way to hurt his credibility when he needs it most.

Last edited by OldMarksman; August 16, 2013 at 02:43 PM.
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