A Bad Case of Sticker Shock

[jondar]

I have two handguns I have been going to list on an Internet Auction and want to be specific what the shipping charge will be on them. I live twenty miles from a city of 100K+ and dropped by the UPS Center there. Not a USP Store but the place things are shipped from. I explained to the lady there I needed an approximate shipping amount on a handgun. I, of course, didn't know exactly where they would be going so the lady ran Florida on the computer. I live in the central US and she said the charge would be between $75 and $90. I about fell over. Has shipping increased that much since the last time I shipped? It was around $35 at that time. I asked her if dealers paid the same rate, she said Oh Yes.

[chris in va]

Wow. I sent mine FedEx for ~$55. Check with your local FFL and see what they charge...bet it's a lot cheaper.

[Dustin0]

Sent my 1911 from KY to FL for $55 vai Ups.

[Doodlebugger45]

I don''t understand that. I just bought a revolver and the dealer shipped it to me via UPS for $20.

[jondar]

I don't understand either. I think dealers are shipping them for $35, I'm working from memory but maybe FedEx has better rates.

[Hornett]

Dealers can use the USPS but individuals must ship by a carrier.
The USPS will not allow shipping of firearms by some strange rule I cannot remember.

Which brings us to UPS and FedEx.
They had some handguns stolen and now they will only ship them overnight.
It's not a federal law or anything just company policy and they will not deviate from it.

I suggest you check some local gun shops.
I have one here that will ship firearms for me (USPS) and they charge a nominal fee. It's still $35 to $45 but far better than the ridiculous overnight fees.

[jondar]

That probably explains it. One of the guns I was going to list was a Browning BDA .380 and I just checked one on the auction and the shipping was $30, so it's going USPS. Good idea.

[JameyPrice]

I used UPS, and used Next-Day Air Saver, and from Detroit to the central states, it was $46. Now, when I went to ship it, they offered me next-day priority at $80, regular next-day at $72, or the option I chose - I'm fairly sure you can see why. You were probably quoted next day priority. Ask them again, but be more specific.

[hanno]

The USPS will not allow shipping of firearms by some strange rule I cannot remember.

Perhaps you misspoke. USPS does not forbid the mailing of all firearms. You can mail long guns via USPS. Handguns can be mailed by manufacturer or dealer to another manufacturer or dealer

[hanno]

I have two handguns I have been going to list on an Internet Auction and want to be specific what the shipping charge will be on them. I live twenty miles from a city of 100K+ and dropped by the UPS Center there. Not a USP Store but the place things are shipped from. I explained to the lady there I needed an approximate shipping amount on a handgun. I, of course, didn't know exactly where they would be going so the lady ran Florida on the computer. I live in the central US and she said the charge would be between $75 and $90. I about fell over. Has shipping increased that much since the last time I shipped? It was around $35 at that time. I asked her if dealers paid the same rate, she said Oh Yes.

Check with your local FFL and see if you can find one who will do the transfer for you. FFLs can use the USPS to mail to another dealer or manufacturer. Even with a FFL transfer fee figured in, it will probably come out cheaper than using UPS or FEDEX.

[Hornett]

Perhaps you misspoke. USPS does not forbid the mailing of all firearms. You can mail long guns via USPS. Handguns can be mailed by manufacturer or dealer to another manufacturer or dealer

Yeah, that.

I did not remember all the rules, but I did know that a handgun was a no no.
Thanks for the clarification.

And that's why you go to your local gun shop or freindly FFL.
They can use UPS and get it shipped for you cheaper.
They won't all do it, though.

[MosesMosley]

Sent a rifle(16lbs in total) from WA to NY for $28........

[jondar]

Thanks for the advices. The lady at UPS explained that this only applied to handguns, that they could ship long guns "ground" and would be around $15.
Looks like finding an FFL who will ship for me will be the best course.

[Mike Irwin]

UPS started putting the screws to people shipping handguns because they couldn't keep their employees from stealing them from the transit system.

UPS' problems with poor hiring practices and criminal employees = YOUR problem, costing YOU more money.

[rodfac]

Mr Irwin....your comments regarding UPS hiring policies and criminal employees hits home. I worked for that company for 20 years and know first hand that they screen their applicants aggressively and watch the sorting process with an eagle eye. If you have first hand knowledge of "criminal employees" then report that "fact" to the police and UPS...both will aggressively follow up on your information. If on the other hand you're blowing off steam at 1:26 am, because the cost of shipping is rising, then perhaps a better choice of wording is appropriate. Irresponsible slandering of a good company, with an outstanding work force is just that, slander. Best regards, Rodfac

[Mike Irwin]

Mr. Rod...

Well...

How about this article from the Wall Street Journal?

http://www.smartmoney.com/breaking-n...19991007073234

Catch the last paragraph in the story:

"In 1997, the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms arrested a UPS employee who had stolen 130 guns shipped from the Smyrna, Ga., facility of Glock's U.S. unit. The guns were later resold in Atlanta housing projects."

That was an effective application of the aggressive screening process, don't you think?

An even more interesting article from the Washington Post from back in 1999.

http://www.paulrevere.org/boycottups...9;t_Arrive.htm

"They started cautiously, slicing open cardboard boxes addressed to a Prince George's County gun shop, removing one or two handguns and taking them out by hiding them under their clothes.

When nothing happened, the three UPS cargo handlers – one of them a convicted crack dealer – grew bolder, according to affidavits filed in U.S. District Court in Greenbelt. They grabbed entire packages filled with revolvers and semiautomatic pistols, slapped on new address labels and had their employer deliver them home for free."

Eagle eye on the sorting process? And old, blind, eagle?


This line is pretty damning...

"In 1998, 941 firearms were reported stolen from interstate shipments, most of them from commercial carriers such as UPS, according to ATF figures. But federal officials concede that they have no idea how many of the estimated 5 million guns that are shipped each year by commercial carrier are stolen."

And if UPS is peopled by such honest people, and the company has such an aggressive and effective employee screen process, where did this comment from the UPS spokesman at the time come from?

"UPS spokesman Bob Godlewski said "several hundred" guns are stolen from the Atlanta-based company each year, although he declined to be specific."

And finally, the cause-effect of UPS' inability to prevent theft by its own employees...

"In October, after the thefts from its Landover distribution center, UPS changed its rules and now requires all handguns to be sent by next-day-air service, the form of delivery also required by Federal Express Corp. and Airborne Freight Corp. That method allows packages to be tracked more closely and reduces the time they are sitting around, making them less vulnerable to thieves, according to UPS officials. Rifles and shotguns, however, can still be sent by standard ground delivery, which is cheaper."

The only difference between UPS and the other shipping agents? The others admitted a long time ago that they can't control all of their employees all the time.

No matter how effective a screening policy you have in place, there's always the chance that you can hire a criminal who is intent on stealing from the company or the customers that it serves.

I spent several years working for Navy Federal Credit Union, a financial services company that also had a very thorough screening process to (hopefully) weed out those who would abuse their positions and commit criminal acts.

Human nature being what it is, it didn't always work. I saw a couple of people taken out of there in handcuffs after the CU became aware that they were breaking the law.


So, what do we have....

Do we have slander against UPS in my previous message? No. UPS changed its shipping requirements for handguns because it couldn't prevent employee theft as admitted to by its own spokesman.

Is UPS a good company? I never claimed that they weren't. Virtually every company/corporation has a theft problem to varying degrees.

Are all UPS employees criminals? I never said that, either.

Did UPS change its handgun shipping requirements, costing gunowners a lot more money, becuase they couldn't control theft and wanted to insulate itself from possible negligence lawsuits? YES.

Sorry that this doens't match up with your experience in your career at UPS, Rod.

I wish I had made this stuff up due to the hour at which I was posting, but I didn't. It's simple fact.

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, and just so as to show that I'm not picking on UPS as being the only organization populated by employees who steal guns...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...d_with_st.html

[Hornett]

Did UPS change its handgun shipping requirements, costing gunowners a lot more money, becuase they couldn't control theft and wanted to insulate itself from possible negligence lawsuits? YES.

+1
See my first post above.
I knew they changed their policy because of theft.
The overnight shipments are tracked much more closely than ground.
That's why overnight prevents theft.
The packages are never just sitting in a warehouse.
They are checked, monitored and moving all the time.
If a package is stolen, they know exactly where and what time.

[rodfac]

Your info appears to be 10-12 years old...UPS was, is, and will continue to be an outstanding company with a reputation for fast, reliable, and honest service. It continues to be competitive against USPS despite USPS' subsidizing it's package delivery service with 1st class mail rates. Wonder why it costs $.44 to send a letter? That's the reason. UPS continues to be competitive vs. FedEx despite the latter's use of non-union labor...a major cost in benefits alone, let alone salaries. UPS also employs over 330,000 workers....99.999% of whom are loyal, honest, and hard working.

UPS ships on a nightly basis, well over a million packages. Prices reflect ongoing shipping costs. Fuel being the prime one. Firearms shipments in the small numbers actually shipped have no bearing on UPS' overall pricing policy. It's a business, Mike, not the government where a profit is something to malign.

The company does have an active enforcement policy and does use magnetic screeners, the kind in daily use at all airports, to "search" each and every employee before they leave the property. Over-reacting to a small problem...nope...it's a commitment to good honest service.

I stand by my comments. If you have issues with the company; then take it up with them or law enforcement. Let's keep the forum's content focused on what we all enjoy...ownership and use of firearms, and leave idle speculation to the media. The "data" you mentioned is hardly proof of widespread theft. And while we're at it, how 'bout some "data" from the USPS or FedEx? Good luck getting that kind of information, let alone seeing it in print.

It appears to me that you've taken "data" 10--12 years old, garnered from the print media, and extrapolated it into an ongoing problem. I can't speculate on your motives for doing that, but it surely doesn't belong on the Firing Line forum.

Regards, Rodfac

[Dingoboyx]

dealers have deals with courier companies so they can subsidise sending a gun to the customer?

I know over here, I write 'sporting equipment' on packages with guns in 'em... (well, my chosen sport is shootin'.... the gun is equipment)

Any time you write 'gun' on a package someone will think it's christmas.... and they got a gun :barf:

Write sporting equipment, you are not lying.... and they dont know it is a gun inside (unless they x-ray the packages)

[Mike Irwin]

"Your info appears to be 10-12 years old..."

Yes.

Know why?

Because UPS put their "have to ship handguns next day air into place AT THAT TIME. It remains IN EFFECT TODAY.

Why was the policy put into place?

In large part, UPS enacted the handguns go by next day air, which REMAINS IN EFFECT TODAY, because of EMPLOYEES STEALING HANDGUNS while on the UPS clock.


I have absolutely NO problem with UPS making a profit.

But let's be 100% honest as to WHY UPS enacted this policy in the first place -- they enacted it BECAUSE THEIR EMPLOYEES WERE STEALING GUNS FROM THE PACKAGE FLOW.

In other words, UPS' inability to police and control its own work force has led to costs being passed directly on to the firearms owner.

I'm not "maligning" UPS -- I'm point out simple truths and realities, truths and realities which UPS itself acknowledged.

I'm not sure what you find to be so problematic about that.

You worked for UPS for 20 years. Good for you. You obviously found a lot of reasons to stay there. Good for you. I've found a lot of reasons to stay with my company for over 10 years now. Good for me.

But does that mean that either of us have the duty to bury our heads in the proverbial sand and ignore simple truths about our employers, truths that may not be to our liking, but which are, no matter how much we don't want them to be, truths?

[rodfac]

Whew...you must have really been burned at one time or another. That's a long time grudge you're carrying.

I give up Mike. We're not getting anywhere with this. Your information is out of date and that's a fact. Bad mouth if you wish...it's your option.

I remain confident in the company's integrity, honesty, and ability to deliver packages of any legal sort, anywhere in the world, and that' s my final word on the subject.

Regards, Rodfac

[Big Ugly Tall Texan]

I lived in Laredo and the only gunsmith I trusted that had prices I liked was in Odessa. I shipped a couple of rifles back and forth through the post office with no problems.

[Mike Irwin]

Actually, Rod, I've never shipped a handgun via UPS.

I've had nothing but good experiences with them in the things that I have shipped.

But it has always frosted me that they're unable to control their employees, so we end up paying more. I'd be ****** as all hell if a bank were to tell me that they were charging me a new fee because their employees were stealing from the till.

And no, my information is NOT out of date. It's relevant to this very day, because UPS is still requiring next day air shipment of handguns. That's a simple fact.

If UPS were totally confident that its employees were no threat threat to pilfer items such as handguns, they would have gone back to the old shipping methods.

And, just so we're clear on the matter, UPS employees are still being arrested for stealing from the company.

From the Chicago Tribune archives:

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2...-pavek_04jan04

UPS employee sentenced to 7 years in prison for stealing over $800,000 in an embezzelment scheme between 2000 and 2006.

From Riverside, California, police, October of last year:

http://www.riversideca.gov/rpd/press...s/oct08a08.pdf

A 20-year UPS employee was arrested for diverting a wide variety of goods.

You think he would have drawn the line at firearms had they been more available in the shipping stream?

Yes, those are just two examples of what truly is a very small minority of UPS employees - ones who break the law by using their positions inside the company to commit crimes for their own gain.

But they still exist inside the company. To try to claim that any company as large and diverse as UPS has no crime problem, that its screening and surveillance methods are flawless, is simply ludicrous.

For fairness' sake, though, here's one where UPS' internal surveillance tapes did catch a guy stealing from the company in New Jersey:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...arcel_ser.html

But, he still managed to steal nearly 100 high-end watches with a total value of perhaps $300,000 between 2007 and 2008 before he was caught.

Do you think he would have batted an eye at stealing handguns?


So, tell us again how UPS has perfect screening and surveillance that prevents internal crime, how UPS employee theft of handguns was NOT a primary reason for UPS adopting the requirement that firearms be shipped next day air at significantly higher costs to gun owners, and how the company is so confident in their ability to prevent theft that they have dropped the shipping requirements on handguns?

Oh, wait, you can't.

You can accuse me of harboring a grudge against UPS for what you believe to be bad experiences on my part, but that is an attempt at obfuscation and diversion on your part. You're attempting to cloud the issue at hand by accusing ME of something, while totally ignoring the true issues that I have raised in this thread - that employee theft is a problem for UPS, always has been, and likely always will be until the company is able to replace all of its employees with robots, and that UPS adopted its handgun shipment requirements in the face of ongoing theft of handguns that were entrusted to it for delivery.

Nice try, but it doesn't work.

[w_houle]

I had to ship my CA-380 in for repair and my FFL sent it via USPS for $12 from KS to UT