38 special vs 38 S&W

Ascot500 · January 24, 2002, 11:06 PM

Okay: A 38 S&W won't fit in a 38 special chamber cause it's too fat; and a 38 special is too long for a 38 S&W.
But both use .357 bullets.
So that tells me the S&W has thicker case walls, right?

Why?

**Mike Irwin** · January 24, 2002, 11:26 PM

At one time the .38 S&W used a true .38 cal. bullet. It was heeled, looking sort of like a mushroom, with the stem stuffed in the case mouth. The outside diameter of the bullet and the OD of the case mouth were the same, appx. .3855.

Heeled bullets were, at one time, very common, but they had some disadvantages, namely requiring the lubricant to be smeared on the outside of the bullet, and being somewhat difficult to manufacture.

In the 1890s, there was a large switch over from heeled bullets to what we know today. There were a lot of advantages, easier to manufacture, the bullet lube could now be put in grooves that were covered by the case (inside lubricated bullets), less lead, etc.

That's when bullets for the .38s went to .357, and for the .44s they went to .429.

Anyway, that's the long way of answering your question. The .38 S&W is a hold-over from an earlier way of manufacturing, while the .38 Spl. took advantage of the new style bullets.

There is one very common round that uses the old-style heeled bullets today -- the .22 Long Rifle (also the .22 CB, .22 Short, and .22 Long)

**Mike Irwin** · January 24, 2002, 11:27 PM

And, as a post script, what a lot of people don't know is that the .38 Spl. was not an outgrowth of the .38 S&W, or any other S&W round, it was developed from the military round at the time, the .38 Long Colt.

C.R.Sam · January 24, 2002, 11:45 PM

Nominal bore diameter of the modern .38S&W (Colt New Police) is .361....with wide variations to be found.
Nominal bore diameter of .38 Special is .357....also with wide variations to be found.

Slightly larger case diameter and slightly larger bullet with the .38S&W. They seem to like .360-361 bullets.

Caution.....some .38S&W revolvers do not have a step in the chamber and will fire the longer cases. NOT safe.

Sam

Jim Watson · January 25, 2002, 12:34 AM

Such references as I have - Ken Waters and Henry Stebbins - indicate that the .38 S&W was introduced in 1877 with the .360" inside lubricated bullet. I have no sign that the .38 S&W was ever a "true .38" like the .38 Colt which was developed from the
cartridge conversions of .36 cap and ball, with their .375" barrels.

S&W had departed from the outside lubricated, heel-type bullet with the .44 Russian in 1870. They had no need for it since they did not have the backlog of cap and ball guns and parts to convert like Colt did. The only centerfire S&W with heel bullet that I know of was the .44 American which was little if anything more than a centerfire version of the .44 Henry.

I can say one thing for sure: old number 34175 here, a Second Model .38 Single Action, probably made in the early 1880s, has a barrel correct for standard .361" bullets and chambers with proper throats. It is a fine weapon of its day. I would definitely have wanted one as a backup or town gun.

C.R.Sam · January 25, 2002, 09:47 AM

My compliments on your piece of history Jim.

Sam

**Mike Irwin** · January 25, 2002, 10:54 AM

Jim,

I need to go back and root through my cartridge collection, and through several articles in American Rifleman, but I'm positive that the .38 S&W was introduced as a heeled bullet design.

I'm sure that I have several early .38 S&Ws that have heeled bullets.

Jim Watson · January 25, 2002, 12:19 PM

Mike,

Certainly a specimen trumps a reference. I'll be interested to see what you turn up.

I will also be talking to the regional S&W SA collector and guru at this weekend's gun show. I would not be surprised to find a first run .38 in his safe to check for bore and chamber dimensions.

Ascot500 · January 25, 2002, 05:44 PM

So can anyone recommend a source for .361" bullets?

Salt · January 28, 2002, 05:05 PM

.361 bullets? You will need to cast your own.

LEE will make custom bullet molds

http://www.leeprecision.com/

**Mike Irwin** · January 28, 2002, 06:02 PM

Crap, I forgot all about checking.

I THINK that NBC in Ohio makes .360/.361 bullets for the .38 S&W.

The other choice is to use hollow base wadcutters. On firing, the hollow base (Hornady works well) expands to grap the rifling a la an old style minie ball.

C.R.Sam · January 28, 2002, 07:05 PM

Hollow base good idea.

Also worth slugging the bore, might get lucky with the bore size.

Sam

**Mike Irwin** · January 29, 2002, 12:32 AM

DAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!

DDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNNNN!

:barf: :barf:

Please disregard just about EVERYTHING I said about the origin of the .38 S&W round in my first post.

Jim Watson, you're right...

As evidence on point, I submit the following...

"Drawings of the new pocket model (.38 Single Action Model of 1874) were completed in 1874 and illustrated the gun as a .38 Rim Fire; however, D.B. Wesson was not pleased with a rim fire cartridge and designed a new .38 centre fire cartridge to be used. To insure accuracy and ease of reloading, this cartridge used a .36 caliber bullet that was so firmly seated within a cartridge case that it was not necessary to crimp the case.The outside dimension of the cartrige [sic] case was .380..."

Source: History of Smith & Wesson, Roy G. Jinks, 1977.

Ugh.

January 24, 2002, 11:06 PM	#1
Ascot500 Member Join Date: December 15, 2000 Posts: 40	38 special vs 38 S&W Okay: A 38 S&W won't fit in a 38 special chamber cause it's too fat; and a 38 special is too long for a 38 S&W. But both use .357 bullets. So that tells me the S&W has thicker case walls, right? Why?

January 24, 2002, 11:26 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	At one time the .38 S&W used a true .38 cal. bullet. It was heeled, looking sort of like a mushroom, with the stem stuffed in the case mouth. The outside diameter of the bullet and the OD of the case mouth were the same, appx. .3855. Heeled bullets were, at one time, very common, but they had some disadvantages, namely requiring the lubricant to be smeared on the outside of the bullet, and being somewhat difficult to manufacture. In the 1890s, there was a large switch over from heeled bullets to what we know today. There were a lot of advantages, easier to manufacture, the bullet lube could now be put in grooves that were covered by the case (inside lubricated bullets), less lead, etc. That's when bullets for the .38s went to .357, and for the .44s they went to .429. Anyway, that's the long way of answering your question. The .38 S&W is a hold-over from an earlier way of manufacturing, while the .38 Spl. took advantage of the new style bullets. There is one very common round that uses the old-style heeled bullets today -- the .22 Long Rifle (also the .22 CB, .22 Short, and .22 Long) __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 24, 2002, 11:27 PM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	And, as a post script, what a lot of people don't know is that the .38 Spl. was not an outgrowth of the .38 S&W, or any other S&W round, it was developed from the military round at the time, the .38 Long Colt. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 25, 2002, 10:54 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Jim, I need to go back and root through my cartridge collection, and through several articles in American Rifleman, but I'm positive that the .38 S&W was introduced as a heeled bullet design. I'm sure that I have several early .38 S&Ws that have heeled bullets. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 28, 2002, 06:02 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Crap, I forgot all about checking. I THINK that NBC in Ohio makes .360/.361 bullets for the .38 S&W. The other choice is to use hollow base wadcutters. On firing, the hollow base (Hornady works well) expands to grap the rifling a la an old style minie ball. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 24, 2002, 11:45 PM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Nominal bore diameter of the modern .38S&W (Colt New Police) is .361....with wide variations to be found. Nominal bore diameter of .38 Special is .357....also with wide variations to be found. Slightly larger case diameter and slightly larger bullet with the .38S&W. They seem to like .360-361 bullets. Caution.....some .38S&W revolvers do not have a step in the chamber and will fire the longer cases. NOT safe. Sam

January 25, 2002, 12:34 AM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Such references as I have - Ken Waters and Henry Stebbins - indicate that the .38 S&W was introduced in 1877 with the .360" inside lubricated bullet. I have no sign that the .38 S&W was ever a "true .38" like the .38 Colt which was developed from the cartridge conversions of .36 cap and ball, with their .375" barrels. S&W had departed from the outside lubricated, heel-type bullet with the .44 Russian in 1870. They had no need for it since they did not have the backlog of cap and ball guns and parts to convert like Colt did. The only centerfire S&W with heel bullet that I know of was the .44 American which was little if anything more than a centerfire version of the .44 Henry. I can say one thing for sure: old number 34175 here, a Second Model .38 Single Action, probably made in the early 1880s, has a barrel correct for standard .361" bullets and chambers with proper throats. It is a fine weapon of its day. I would definitely have wanted one as a backup or town gun.

January 25, 2002, 09:47 AM	#6
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	My compliments on your piece of history Jim. Sam

January 25, 2002, 12:19 PM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Mike, Certainly a specimen trumps a reference. I'll be interested to see what you turn up. I will also be talking to the regional S&W SA collector and guru at this weekend's gun show. I would not be surprised to find a first run .38 in his safe to check for bore and chamber dimensions.

January 25, 2002, 05:44 PM	#9
Ascot500 Member Join Date: December 15, 2000 Posts: 40	So can anyone recommend a source for .361" bullets?

January 28, 2002, 05:05 PM	#10
Salt Junior member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Posts: 673	.361 bullets? You will need to cast your own. LEE will make custom bullet molds http://www.leeprecision.com/

January 28, 2002, 07:05 PM	#12
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Hollow base good idea. Also worth slugging the bore, might get lucky with the bore size. Sam

January 29, 2002, 12:32 AM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	DAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!! DDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNNNN! :barf: :barf: Please disregard just about EVERYTHING I said about the origin of the .38 S&W round in my first post. Jim Watson, you're right... As evidence on point, I submit the following... "Drawings of the new pocket model (.38 Single Action Model of 1874) were completed in 1874 and illustrated the gun as a .38 Rim Fire; however, D.B. Wesson was not pleased with a rim fire cartridge and designed a new .38 centre fire cartridge to be used. To insure accuracy and ease of reloading, this cartridge used a .36 caliber bullet that was so firmly seated within a cartridge case that it was not necessary to crimp the case.The outside dimension of the cartrige [sic] case was .380..." Source: History of Smith & Wesson, Roy G. Jinks, 1977. Ugh. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.