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November 3, 2013, 05:47 PM | #1 |
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Annealing starting out, help me.
I've recently (for the first time) found a need to anneal a bunch of cases in both .303 Brit & 7.62mm NATO.
I've been doing homework & even practiced with some unsalvegable old cases to come up with a technique. Some of the basics I've got. Temps in the 550~650 range, keep the back of the case safe from thermal harm & so on. I'm aware red hot is too hot, I know to "look for the blue", (but only on cases that haven't been previously annealed) but I have a lot of beginners questions on this aspect. It seems there are some choices to make. I'm NOT going to by an expensive annealing machine, because this is pretty much a one shot deal. So I need to come up with the best choice for a guy with a propane torch, a galvanized bucket, a power drill, or an electric screwdriver, & time to kill. Where do you actually but tempsticks or templaq? How do I actually use them (you aren't supposed to put them in the flame), OK, where do you put them that isn't in the flame, but it is in the area being heated? Let me pick your brains boyz & girlz. What am I going to mess up before I do it in the real world?
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November 3, 2013, 06:11 PM | #2 |
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Tempilstik and Tempilaq are available through welding supply outfits. The company web site is here and you can probably contact them for a dealer. I got mine from a welding supply house near my home. But now that you have the spellings, I'm sure you can find them on the web.
The sticks are used by getting the brass partially warmed, then marking the brass. Tempilaq liquid is dotted on the cold brass and allowed to dry. Both are high melting temperature wax powders that act as pigment plus binders. The wax powder goes clear when the temperature is reached. They are usually applied to the corner of the neck and shoulder, though the Hornady method uses a lower temperature Tempilaq (475°F?) that is applied to the case body below the shoulder and you stop heating when that place gets warm enough to melt it to clear. If you polish the brass or clean it in citric acid every time, it will be yellow enough to show you the color change (due to oxides forming) every time. Denton Bramwell has a You Tube video of him using a gas stove as the heat source that you can find by searching. I think if you buy a 1/4" hex shaft deep socket that will hold your case and turn it in your drill, that may be the fastest solution. Whether you can count on the socket holding its temper or not is up to your technique and how far out the case sticks from it. It's purpose is partly to act as a chill for the case heat. Aluminum would be better from that standpoint.
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November 3, 2013, 06:18 PM | #3 |
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Thirty years ago I used the water pan method. But it has shortcomings. The process I use now is covered here. It is easy to use, and very accurate in the temperature control. I bought my Temp Stiks at the local welding store. They had to order the 650 sticks I needed. The consistency of the necks are very uniform following this process.
I just did a quick search and you can even order them from Staples link
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November 3, 2013, 07:42 PM | #4 |
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- Get light green/750º Tempilaq here:
http://www.amazon.com/Tempilaq%C2%B0.../dp/B009G69E56 - Use cap brush supplied to paint a wide stripe inside the case mouth/neck - Point bright light at angle so you can see into the case mouth as it will sit when entering the flame. - Use a socket chucked in a cordless drill (or better, spring for a one-time $50 investment in Hornady's spinner set here): http://www.midwayusa.com/product/360...nealing-system - Point medium Benzomatic flame at juncture of case neck/shoulder while spinning. Watch alternating green/dark stripe rotate inside of neck - When stripe disappears, drop case dry onto shop towel (no water needed) - Next........ (Cycles ~350 cases/hour) NOTE A: You need to reach 750º in the actual annealing portion of the case to successfully change the grain structure in the few seconds time you have in the flame. Lower temp can require several minutes. High Temps destroy the brass. (See here: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html You must use a temp indicator. NOTE 1: after a while you'll get a very accurate timing feel. You can begin skipping Tempilaq-striped cases and rely on time. NOTE 2: If you've a mind, use a mineral spirit/acetone dampened twist of paper towel afterwards to remove residual Tempilaq Last edited by mehavey; November 3, 2013 at 09:44 PM. |
November 4, 2013, 08:46 AM | #5 |
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Excellent, thanks guys.
Questions: Do I have to remove the post heat lacquer/wax/stick, or is that optional? The "blue" color is just a surface effect & I can polish it off, or is it the actual alloy changing color in depth? The Midway kit seems ideal for my needs but has a (relatively) low temp indicator. Is that the 400 degree put below the actual heated area under discussion?
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Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.” |
November 4, 2013, 09:58 AM | #6 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
The white/450 dgr Tempilaq goes about 1/4" below the shoulder and tells you that the case body has reached that temp, ...at that location (stop). It is assumed that the neck portion was at the much higher temp and therefore annealed. Using actual Green/750 dgr Tempilaq inside the neck is a significant step up in knowing/using the right temp. (But it's somewhat more of a pain/art. No free lunch anywhere it seems. ) Last edited by mehavey; November 4, 2013 at 10:21 AM. |
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November 4, 2013, 12:13 PM | #7 |
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Got it, thanks.
Next *ahem* "brilliant" idea from me Is this a good idea, or simply over-engineering if I decide to make my own holder/heat shield. I'm thinking of chucking it in a drill & I'm thinking excessive heat getting into the chuck jaws might be a bad thing.
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Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.” |
November 4, 2013, 01:21 PM | #8 |
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Use the smallest diameter socket that will allow the case base to slide in/out easily.
Stuff something in the socket base (folded-up paper towel/dry sponge, etc) to make at least half the case stick out. Put a single fender washer on it and don't worry about heat transfer to the drill. It won't even get warm. |
November 4, 2013, 01:29 PM | #9 |
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If you go to http://www.cartridgeanneal.com/ they have a video that shows you the process using their fixture. Evening if you are not interested in their fixture the video has some good info on it.
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November 4, 2013, 02:10 PM | #10 |
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I have an add on question . I'm in construction and do a far amount of plumbing . I do not use propane , I use MAP gas and it's all I have . It burns hotter then propane and makes for soldering bigger fittings easier . Can I use it or should I stick with propane . It would most likely turn the 8 sec job in to a 4 or 5 sec job but may heat the neck hotter then needed before the stick mark changed colors .
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November 4, 2013, 02:13 PM | #11 |
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I have used/still use both Propane & MAP.
Adjust the "gentleness" of the different flames for about a 3-4 sec cycle as judged by the Tempilaq time and don't worry about it. |
November 4, 2013, 04:22 PM | #12 |
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I tried a basic "get used to it" test with scrap brass.
With propane on a really low flame & using the old "only heat the neck till the base of the case gets hot" technique. (I was trying to see if I could do the hand-held thing by rotating the case fully in my fingers) it took about 3 1/2 seconds till I had to drop the test case (a .303 Brit, which is a fairly long case). Based on that I'd think MAP was going to anneal fully 2 seconds before you put the flame to it!
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November 4, 2013, 04:58 PM | #13 |
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Using propane while annealing 308, I get into a rhythm and its about 3 to 4 seconds. Granted everyones method will vary, but 1 to 2 seconds using MAPS might not give you as much control. I think slower is better in this case. Thats my 2 cents.
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November 4, 2013, 06:30 PM | #14 |
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You should be able to hold the MAPP gas torch further from the case. Experiment until you find the right heating rate.
Wogpotter, The color or "annealing stain" is just surface oxide. There's nothing deep about the color as deep metal has no exposure to oxygen to color it, so it just polishes off. Commercial bottleneck cases are annealed to relieve work-hardening from forming the neck and shoulder, and if you hold them in the light just right, you can usually see the annealed portion has a very slightly different color. They have simply been polished to remove the stain. Your design lacks a method of making solid enough contact with the brass to draw heat from the case to the fins. That would require a heat conductive collet of some kind to hold the case, I expect. The main function of the sockets is just to keep hot gases from the flame from impinging on the brass below the socket rim. That slows how quickly it heats. Dip the end of the socket in water briefly after annealing each case to keep it cool.
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November 4, 2013, 07:52 PM | #15 |
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On average, how many additional reloads can you get from annealing?
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November 5, 2013, 08:49 AM | #16 |
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Thanks for the info on the discoloration.
I was thinking more of the "fins" dumping heat from the socket, not so much the case itself. I'm guessing the reason for the deep wall socket is to form a "wall" around the lower parts of the case to protect it from direct flame impingement. If that's the case then the socket is going to get heated, so I was trying to head off beginners blunders on my part. I hadn't figured out the dunking in water cooling system, that's just so much easier than my attempt. I found a local source for tempsticks but can't get there till this weekend. I'm going to get a 400 & a 650 & try out both on some old dead brass to see which technique works for klutzy ol' me!
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November 7, 2013, 12:21 PM | #17 |
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Wogpotter,
The Hornady kit uses 475° Tempilaq for below-the shoulder indication. I think 400°F is going to cut you off prematurely. The normal stress relief range in a long exposure (1 hour) is 250°C-300°C, which is 482°F-572°C. The idea with 475° is to warn you when you are about to start stress relieving too far down. Swampman, It depends on how quickly necks start splitting on you which will depend on your load, your chamber's neck size and how far your sizing die pushes it back and how much your expander then re-expands it. I've seen cases split in just a few reloadings that probably needed to be annealed every third firing. I've had rough gas gun chambers that forced retirement of military brass withing 5 load cycles due to pressure rings starting to be apparent and before an sign of neck splits was occurring. I've had .45 Auto target load cases go through 50 reloads before splitting forced retirement. Figure out how soon neck splits start and anneal at about 2/3-3/4 that number of reloads and you will never get splits. At that point the brass can be made to last until a head separation or other thinning gets bad. Board member Hummer90 says he's got one .308 case with, IIRC, over 150 reloads. He's likely doing minimal resizing of brass fired in a chamber that's undoubtedly fairly snug and he's likely loading it to moderate pressures and annealing periodically. And while I would not count on being able to make 150 reloads happen, it's certainly possible. Many benchresters get on the order of 50 reloads from rifle cases. Aside from that, there are some who anneal every load cycle to keep case neck tension consistent. That's where owning a pile of brass and one of the annealing machines starts to look attractive.
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November 7, 2013, 12:28 PM | #18 | |
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Quote:
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November 7, 2013, 04:52 PM | #19 |
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Hummer90 has a friend who makes a fixture that goes all the way up to ¼ inch or so below the shoulder. Those get hot, but he reports the color line stops uniformly there. That's the advantage of one long enough to reach. But it also means the Hornady Tempilaq location wouldn't work with them.
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November 7, 2013, 05:07 PM | #20 |
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Got it, thanks.
I wish those handy-dandy Hornady gizmos would work, but I have rimmed cases that will need lotsa-lotas work to be fitted & a 1/2" & a 9/16 socket did all the work for me in advance & are (as suggested) a nice snug fit.
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Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.” |
November 9, 2013, 02:29 PM | #21 |
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OK, folks, here is the setup I put together, which of course, raises even more questions.
I ended up having to use a fairly long bolt with a part of it un-threaded to make things fit, so I said “what the heck I have to space things out anyway” & used washers & fender washers. Tempilsticks are 450 & 600 degree. They had a choice of 600 or 700 so I went with the cooler one & will just give the case another 2~3 seconds after the change. 14mm was perfect for the .303 Brit, both for the tightest diameter that would allow the rim in & for length. I went with the 3/8” drive because it was the best fit for the ¼” bolt I had available. Its too deep/long for the .308 cases, but diameter is pretty much right. I’ll just use something like aluminum foil for a spacer plug when doing the shorter case. 2 questions though. Is the Tempilstick supposed to be this “crumbly/chalky” when applying it? That’s the “orange” 600-degree on the outside of the case neck & the 450-degree horizontally behind the shoulder in a horizontal stripe. How do you get the 600-degree inside a .30 cal case neck? The “core” of the Tempilstick is a good bit bigger than the case mouth diameter. Can I just sharpen it like a pencil or what? Note: These are old unusable cases that I'm using for testing, fitting & so on. That's why they aren't cleaned or anything. I'll tumble & inside clean cases when I'm doing this for real.
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Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.” |
November 9, 2013, 03:13 PM | #22 |
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What do you do about primer pockets getting loose? I've never annealed my .223 cases because after 5 reloads or so, the primer pockets are so loose I see no reason to keep them.
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November 9, 2013, 06:20 PM | #23 |
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WhyteP38,
An old rule of thumb is that if primer pockets get loose in 5 loads or less, it's a high pressure sign. Mind you, this is pressure that is high for the brass you are using, and not necessarily for the gun steel. Federal cases, for example, will typically do that at lower pressures than other brands. I maintain a list of pressure signs here. You're not going to like the short answer to your question, but it is to knock 5% off your load. Wogpotter, A 700°F crayon would have been more typical, though technically a little higher than necessary. I use a 650°F crayon and count on some overshoot. As I mentioned before, you start heating the case, then touch it with the crayon to avoid the crumbling. Another fellow on the board disliked this, so I advised him to turn the crayon to powder with a file and mix the powder with alcohol to apply dots and he said that worked well and let him apply it to the cold brass more conveniently. Ordering the Tempilaq would do the same thing. Check out this Ken Howell article for more description of the crayons and temperatures and what the brass should look like and an illustration.
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November 9, 2013, 06:45 PM | #24 |
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Kool. More experiments for tomorrow.
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November 9, 2013, 07:19 PM | #25 | |
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Many thanks! |
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