Any time, any place

[LockedBreech]

Hey all,

I wanted to share this. It happened last summer, but I didn't think to share it here. I like to think of it as a simple reminder: Carry a gun always, or not at all. You cannot predict trouble.

Last year, as I've mentioned before, my friend wanted to get a gun and start shooting. He wanted to spend about $400. Based on my experiences on here, I helped him pick a Stoeger Cougar 8000 F in 9mm. I then helped him learn to shoot with it, and we found an easy-to-acquire locally, easy-to-shoot defense load (124gr Federal Hydra Shok) that fed reliably. No permit was necessary, as Wyoming recently went permitless. I encouraged him to carry whenever possible. The Beretta-derived Cougar, while a bit bulky, is still concealable and I wanted him getting in the habit.

At the time I helped him, I had been carrying 2.5 years or so. I had never had even a close call. After three weeks of carrying, he did. While at home, working a late shift at his restaurant (as a manager, he closes up) the current boyfriend of one of his exes approached.

The restaurant closing at 11 PM, it was close to 12:30 AM by the time my friend got finished with closing tasks. The new boyfriend had been lying in wait. A few weeks before, irritated by his ex's constant texts, my friend had told her to leave him alone . For some reason, this irritated the boyfriend. A recent military (though no longer) member (Army, I think), he was taller and stronger than my friend, and was standing between him and his car in a dark parking lot with no one else in sight.

The boyfriend began belligerently talking to my buddy about what a fag he was, etc, and how he had to be taught to stop running his mouth. My buddy, to my immense pride, had followed my advice and was carrying. He pushed his jacket over the grip of the Cougar, staked with 15+1, and told the boyfriend "Leave me alone right now."

My friend was subjected to the usual tirade of the cowardly against a target suddenly not helpless. What a coward he was. What a weakling. Then he retreated like his rear was on fire.

I carried (and have continued to carry) for years without issue. My mom decades without issue. My friend carried for less than a month, and simply brandishing his weapon was enough to save him from a beating at the very least. In the aftermath, my friend called the police and reported the boyfriend. According to the police, the boyfriend was ordered to stay away and so far has done so. Apparently left the state. Also according to the police, my friend was 100% within his rights.

The lessons and questions and opportunities to learn here are myriad, and the thread about times you've needed your gun made me think of the main one.
1. How many times have you left your gun at home because you didn't predict trouble? My friend certainly didn't predict it leaving work.
2. Are you familiar enough with your gun to be 100% confident?
3. In a situation like this, do guns with any question as to reliability, even just to pass muster at all?
4. Have you thought about getting a friend into guns? You could save a life.

I hope this helps someone in some way. Thanks for reading.

Not that it's related to anything, but I upgrade him to the 147-grain Speer Gold Dot after that, my treat (I'm a heavy for caliber believer).

[shootniron]

Get ready for the opinions from The Firing Line court.

Majority
Concurring
Dissenting
Per Curiam

[kinggabby]

I don't think brandishing is a wise thing to do. It gives up your secret identity (Conceal Carry Man ). But seriously it does give the other guy more info than what he needs. Hey this guy has a gun and his ex-girlfriend knows where he lives. Just my two cents worth. It is illegal to do here in Oklahoma. Here if you show it it better be drawn and or fired. But pulling a shirt so it can be seen you are looking for fines and possible jail time. Not to mention you can loose your gun,your CCW and and no telling what else.

[LockedBreech]

Maybe I should have been clearer. The aggressor was at arms length, verbally threatening loudly with balled fists, lying in wait after midnight. My buddy showed the butt of a pistol with the safety on without drawing.

[Friar Whently]

I don't think brandishing is a wise thing to do. It gives up your secret identity (Conceal Carry Man ). But seriously it does give the other guy more info than what he needs. Hey this guy has a gun and his ex-girlfriend knows where he lives. Just my two cents worth. It is illegal to do here in Oklahoma. Here if you show it it better be drawn and or fired. But pulling a shirt so it can be seen you are looking for fines and possible jail time. Not to mention you can loose your gun,your CCW and and no telling what else.

Wait...so it's cool to physically pull your gun out, but you can face legal consequences if you just pull open your jacket and show it?

[Crankgrinder]

i do not know what the difference is between that and telling the man that you are armed. to some people hearing one say " i have a gun" is almost more of a dare than a warning. i suppose the courts would rather you just tell the man to go ahead and get to it with his beating and then shoot him anyway instead of letting him see for sure you are indeed armed and telling him to get along possibly saving the both of you. im not saying that brandishing a gun is best for sure. but to me a dark alley+ a guy waiting+12:30 am+ threats + no witnesses= guess what! id have to say id have done the same if not pulled and pointed right then. all legalities and red tape aside whats to say he didnt have one tucked away waiting to put one in me? why take chances? at least thats how i feel about it. strong kudos to that buddy of yours glad all went well. glad no one was shot.

[Willie Lowman]

Look, I'm not saying your buddy did wrong BUT...

In the state of Ohio doing what he did is illegal. I am not in the mood to tear into the O.R.C. but it is made out (as clear as lawyer speak can be) that a beating by fists isn't mortal danger. Although I know a few folks that could easily kill a man with their hands should they decide to. If a weapon was shown (a bat, knife, cudgel, brass knuckles, etc) it would be a different story. Fear of rape is included in the justifications for use of deadly force (going for your concealed pistol).

That said, good for him.

[BRE346]

He wouldn't have had a chance to draw. Two steps backward would help a lot. Good thing it turned out the way you describe.

Were I in that fix, I don't know what I'd do. It was just too dangerous.

[hangglider]

Interesting case. At face value I'd think gabby is right--your friend hadn't yet been faced with the the intent and probability of deadly force or exercised the option of avoidance. Some places may treat one's vehicle as an extension of the home (somebody posted somewhere that Texas does, I think) in which case MAYBE the threat might be construed within the context of Castle doctrine thing. I don't know--but a good case example to analyze (politely).

[LockedBreech]

It was not my intention to start a legal debate. Good points are raised here, and it's very important to know the law in your state. In the relevant jurisdiction what he did was legal. I posted this thread simply to emphasize the importance of always being ready and helping teach your friends about firearms and the Second Amendment, if they are receptive.

[hangglider]

My feeling is that the 2nd amendment right is the most profound one that we citizens have--and carries with it tremendous responsibilities which I myself don't fully understand the extent of.

[Buzzcook]

Spiteful ex-girlfriend who now has a muscle head current boy friend.
Sounds like a reason to carry to me.

[kraigwy]

I don't think brandishing is a wise thing to do.........Just my two cents worth. It is illegal to do here in Oklahoma.

Did you notice the OPs location, He's in Wyoming, we don't have such silly laws.

There is a big difference between pulling your coat/shirt back and branishing.

[LockedBreech]

Kraig, this was actually at the Cheyenne Perkins if that illustrates things

[kgpcr]

Why did he not call 911? Why did he not go back in the store and lock the door and wait for the police? What would he have done if the guy would not have retreated? after he pulled his weapon one of several things were going to happen. One the guy retreats. two the guy keeps coming at him and he shoots him. Now he goes to jail as the guy does not have a weapon. three the guys keeps coming and kicks his ass. I think he played it all wrong

[LockedBreech]

Originally Posted by kgpcr

Why did he not call 911? Why did he not go back in the store and lock the door and wait for the police? What would he have done if the guy would not have retreated? after he pulled his weapon one of several things were going to happen. One the guy retreats. two the guy keeps coming at him and he shoots him. Now he goes to jail as the guy does not have a weapon. three the guys keeps coming and kicks his ass. I think he played it all wrong

Please re-read my post and thread, don't skim it.

1.) He never pulled his weapon. At all. Did not break the holster. Anything that might have happened if pure speculation. Even seeing the butt made him hightail it, so I'm guessing a draw would have done the same.
2.) He was in the middle of the parking lot after locking up the store. This I might not have made clear enough.
3.) Your response when a person is two feet from you physically threatening you is to go for phone and not firearm? I doubt he'd have had time to unlock the phone if they guy had attacked.
4.) As for going into the store, same issue as the phone. You think he could have gotten to the door and unlocked it without getting overtaken by the bigger, faster, stronger guy behind him?
5.) Given too close to call 911, too far to get back in the store, how would you have handled it?

[blkft1]

1.On occassion but not very often.
2.Yes
3.Murphy's Law can a affect any gun.
4.Depends on the friend.


If it was me I would have NOT displayed any part of my gun and immediately backed/retreated away saying NOTHING in a attempt to avoid contact the very second the aggressive, agitated and verbally abusive Mr New-Boyfriend started his tirade. I wouldnt get anywhere near ten feet of him. In the mean time would have called the police on my cell or re-entered and lock myself in the store then called the police and have them deal with him and the Ex if possible.I'd describe in a cool/calm demeanor exactly what I did above emphasizing on my "non escalating the issue" tactic to the police when they arrive.The next day I'd file a complaint of the above sitzu to have record with the police in case there is anymore contact FROM the Ex and NBF whether by e-mail,text,cell or in person.

[blkft1]

"It was not my intention to start a legal debate. Good points are raised here, and it's very important to know the law in your state. In the relevant jurisdiction what he did was legal. I posted this thread simply to emphasize the importance of always being ready and helping teach your friends about firearms and the Second Amendment, if they are receptive."

I'll re-edit my response to this:
In this part of the forum we all play "Armchair Warrior" or "would've, could've, should've". Yes,,we should all be ready 100% with a reliable weapon all of the time,,,but on occassion I'm guilty of being lazy on the former but it's very rare. If I had the exact same experience that your friend had and reacted the same exact way I still would notify the police.And I woud explain in detail exactly what I did and why and then go home and review the sitzu with myself and a trustworthy good friend.Which he did.

we all have our opinions good or bad.

[MLeake]

blkft1, I understand a general advocacy of avoidance. OTOH, I think your opinion that it would be feasible to dial a phone, or turn, cross a parking lot, and unlock a door in such a scenario are unrealistic.

[TheNocturnus]

Don't mind these guys, most of them have probably never been in a scenario like that. I've faced the business end of a gun 3 times from robbers, that's why I now carry.

Your friend did the right thing. If he honestly felt that he was at risk of imminent harm, he could have drawn and shot the guy. I would have done the same thing as him, maybe more.

[Mike38]

…..a beating by fists isn't mortal danger.

Well, I’m not so sure about that. A guy I was an acquaintance with spent quite a few years in prison for man slaughter. He hit a guy with his fist outside of a bar. One punch to the face. The other guy fell backwards, hit his head on a street curb, cracking open his skull. He bled to death before an ambulance could arrive. So a fist can lead to mortal danger.

I’m not about to take a beating by fists if it can be prevented. If showing a weapon will stop said beating, I’m willing to take my chances against the State’s Attorney.

BTW, the guy in the original post didn’t brandish a weapon. To brandish means to take out and wave around or point. Simply showing a weapon is lesser.

[kinggabby]

BTW, the guy in the original post didn’t brandish a weapon. To brandish means to take out and wave around or point. Simply showing a weapon is lesser.

Sorry I got that mixed up.

[hangglider]

Good points. If the guy is known to have military training, bigger than the friend and behaving in a physically-threatening manner, then it's seems reasonable for an average person to expect possible grave injury or even death, though I still think there's a possible missing component of seeking to avoid if that was reasonably possible. My guess is that the big tough behaving in a threatening manner "is equivalent" to revealing possession of a firearm--so it's a "draw" in terms of using reasonable threat to counter what a reasonable person would perceive as a potential lethal threat.

[cloud8a]

In the state of Ohio doing what he did is illegal. I am not in the mood to tear into the O.R.C. but it is made out (as clear as lawyer speak can be) that a beating by fists isn't mortal danger.

I think it has been established on easily more than a thousand occasions that fists can be lethal. As far as the law goes in each individual state concerning self defense, that is the sole responsibility of the gun carrier to know like the back of his hand. That being said, there could be a distinction made between brandishing a firearm that is still holstered and placing your hand on a holstered firearm. The former could be saying "Look, I have a gun on my hip", the latter being a ready position not necessarily intending the target to understand I am armed.
In my opinion, letting a threat know you are armed and to leave you alone under the umbrella of your known state laws that allow that, is the responsible thing to do. I am talking ideal circumstances here.
When I am unsure I look to LEO policy. I think it is a rare occurrence that even an undercover LEO has thrown his shirt open to show a threatening target he has a gun. The gun is either out and on the target or holstered and concealed.
The best bet is to question an LEO thoroughly about your local gun laws and know your state gun laws thoroughly, and knowing is half the battle

[icedog88]

Here in CT, both parties could be charged with breach of peace. I don't think showing a holstered gun quite meets the definition of brandishing but some over zealous DA might try it. The catch all here is breach of peace. You can open carry here or conceal, but if someone notices it, you can be charged under a breach. I do agree that one must always be prepared, but with extreme caution as the effects of encounters such as this can go either or any way.