Primer problem, please help

ARIES78 · May 14, 2009, 05:49 PM

I feel stupid posting this question but I have rechecked my 4 reloading manuals and looked online for a solution and I am stumped. Most of my experience is reloading 45 ACP and 9mm, that said I am trying to reload for my .308 now. I was by a miracle able to find 500 Winchester Large Rifle primers so I got started. Everything was going well until I tried to seat the primers. I am using Hornady Match once fired brass, I cannot get the primers to seat all the way. I have cleaned the primer pockets, and was using as much force as I felt comfortable with (towards the end I threw on my earmuffs in addition to my safety glasses if that tells you anything). I have laid a new primer next to the old primers on my bench and it appears that the new primer is taller. Is it possible that they packaged magnum primers in these boxes by accident? I don't know what large magnum rifle primers look like so I wouldn't know. Also I tried a different brand of brass ( Winchester ) Please help.

Prince55 · May 14, 2009, 06:13 PM

I just went and measured some CCI Large Rifle primers & some
Large Rifle Magnum primers with calipers and they were exactly
the same. That was the only brand that I have and lucky to have
them the way things are.
The Winchesters are possibly a little different.
Welcome here. Maybe someone else has a suggestion.

bfoosh006 · May 14, 2009, 06:23 PM

I don't know if Hornady crimps in their primers,..but ...if they do,...does the primer pocket still have a "crimp" on it. If it does then you'll need to remove that first.

Ozzieman · May 14, 2009, 06:28 PM

What are you using to prime the cases?
A primer that is on your press or something like a Lee auto prime.
Can you also measure one of the taller primers?
I'm with Prince55, I have CCI and there the same size, yours is NOT a stupid question, you don’t say what your loading for, but since its 308, it could be semi and you sure as heck don’t want a slam fire.

ARIES78 · May 14, 2009, 07:05 PM

I am using a Dillon 550 to prime. I am loading for a Savage FP10 bolt gun. The primers measure .127" tall. The primer is sticking out of the case .015". I also tried regular Winchester brass and it did the same thing so I don't think it's a crimp issue.

Ozzieman · May 14, 2009, 07:59 PM

If you have a set of calipers try to measure the depth of the primer hole.
But my guess is that there is something not working right with the Dillon.

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 · May 14, 2009, 08:30 PM

G'day. According to what I was reading last night, magnum primers should be the same physical size as 'regular' primers. They just have different burn characteristics.
It sounds like you are not getting the correct stroke movement from your seating tool/press. Try and insert a used primer back into a case. Use spent primers to get the correct seating depth. They wont go bang if you push too hard.

James R. Burke · May 15, 2009, 08:24 AM

Thats a good idea Skullandcrossbones65 has. I had it happen once. I take it you are uniforming the pockets? Ozzieman is also correct you sure do not want a slam fire. Try it like Skullandcrossbones65 said, it sure cant hurt, and wont go bang. Thats the nice part. Good luck, and welcome to the forum. No question here is stupid. Just the one you do not ask. I have been loading for a long time and I am still asking pretty simple questions. I have learned alot from this forum just by reading the posts etc. Like just now on using a used primer.

F. Guffey · May 15, 2009, 08:58 AM

.015 primer protrusion is about .010 beyond the perfect head space in a chamber in the perfect world. You could check head space and primer seating depth at the same time. Prime a case with the primer sticking out with out powder/bullet chamber the primed case, close the bolt, if closing the bolt seats the primer, the protrusion of the primer should give you an ideal the effect that case has on head space in that rifle, in the perfect world head space will be .005, again I have an Enfield (Eddystone) M1917 with .016 head space with perfect ammo, I use cases that are .015 longer from the head of the case to the shoulder, something like a 30/06 +015, the +.015 case cuts down on the case head hammering on the bolt etc..

If closing the bolt seats the primer it is safe to say the problem is not the primer or case, that would leave the primer system on the press, I have hand primer systems, the problem with removing the case with a protruding primer is the shell holder or plate, the same applies to installing a high primer in a hand primer, the groove in the shell holder must be deep enough, a few shell holders do not have a groove, this protect the reloader from him/her self.

F. Guffey

UniversalFrost · May 15, 2009, 10:34 AM

skullandcrossbones is correct that the large rifle and large rifle magnum primers have the same dimensions, but their burn characteristics are different (magnums burn hotter longer).

i am guessing that you have a problem with either the primer setup on your dillon (did you adjust it correctly when you switched from pistols to rifle??) or the primer pockets have a crimp or something going on with them. Coudl be that the primer pockets are on the small end of the tolerance and the primers are on the large end.

If these were CCI's I would say that the primers are on the large side (all CCI large rifle and large rifle magnum primers are on the large side of the tolerances) and that you would need to open up the primer pockets on the brass a bit.

let us know what you have found out.

JOE

Shoney · May 15, 2009, 11:04 AM

Large Rifle primers, whether standard or mag, should measure between 0.128" and 0.132" in depth.

Tim R · May 15, 2009, 12:43 PM

I wonder if the primers are out of spec. Back in the 80's CCI had some issues with primers not being uniform in size. Othen times I ended up bending a primer just trying to get to go in. It got so bad I stopped using them for awhile and bought Winchesters. I do know with my large rifle cartridges, I get the best groups with CCI's. I have not heard of Winchester having QC issues other than the switch from the silver colored to the brass colored primers. Seems with pistols, the primers were not going off all the time as the cups were harder.

If not the primers then I would think there is something out of adjustment.

SL1 · May 15, 2009, 02:39 PM

Aries78,

Use your calipers to measure the DIAMETER of your primers. The specs are as follows:

Code:

                    dia       cup height
CCI  200            0.2112"    0.118"
     250            0.2113"    0.118"
Federal 210         0.2120"    0.117"
Remington 9-1/2     0.2100"    0.119"
Winchester LR       0.2114"    0.121"
           LRM      0.2114"    0.121"

As you can see, Winchesters are a little larger than the others, except Federal. But, squeezing the cup down by a few ten-thousandths of an inch should not be a problem. They are supposed to be tight.

SL1

FM12 · May 16, 2009, 09:15 PM

Dillons are famous for priming problems. Use a Lee priming tool if you have one and finish seating them. Some will say this is dangerous, I've reseated/finished seating the primer on a blue million caes, never a "pop". Wear eye protection just to be safe though.

Winchester 69 · May 16, 2009, 10:06 PM

xxxxx

ARIES78 · May 17, 2009, 05:57 PM

Well guys thanks for all the help. It seems to be the Dillon. I got out an old Lee loading kit ( the one you use the mallet to bang everything in with ) and the primers seated all the way fine. I'm not sure why the dillon isn't working but atleast I know what it is now. Thanks again for all the help.

May 14, 2009, 05:49 PM	#1
ARIES78 Junior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Posts: 4	Primer problem, please help I feel stupid posting this question but I have rechecked my 4 reloading manuals and looked online for a solution and I am stumped. Most of my experience is reloading 45 ACP and 9mm, that said I am trying to reload for my .308 now. I was by a miracle able to find 500 Winchester Large Rifle primers so I got started. Everything was going well until I tried to seat the primers. I am using Hornady Match once fired brass, I cannot get the primers to seat all the way. I have cleaned the primer pockets, and was using as much force as I felt comfortable with (towards the end I threw on my earmuffs in addition to my safety glasses if that tells you anything). I have laid a new primer next to the old primers on my bench and it appears that the new primer is taller. Is it possible that they packaged magnum primers in these boxes by accident? I don't know what large magnum rifle primers look like so I wouldn't know. Also I tried a different brand of brass ( Winchester ) Please help.

May 14, 2009, 08:30 PM	#7
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2008 Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia Posts: 992	G'day. According to what I was reading last night, magnum primers should be the same physical size as 'regular' primers. They just have different burn characteristics. It sounds like you are not getting the correct stroke movement from your seating tool/press. Try and insert a used primer back into a case. Use spent primers to get the correct seating depth. They wont go bang if you push too hard. __________________ If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough! When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!

May 15, 2009, 10:34 AM	#10
UniversalFrost Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,300	skullandcrossbones is correct that the large rifle and large rifle magnum primers have the same dimensions, but their burn characteristics are different (magnums burn hotter longer). i am guessing that you have a problem with either the primer setup on your dillon (did you adjust it correctly when you switched from pistols to rifle??) or the primer pockets have a crimp or something going on with them. Coudl be that the primer pockets are on the small end of the tolerance and the primers are on the large end. If these were CCI's I would say that the primers are on the large side (all CCI large rifle and large rifle magnum primers are on the large side of the tolerances) and that you would need to open up the primer pockets on the brass a bit. let us know what you have found out. JOE __________________ Lifetime member VFW and NRA "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (when all else fails play dead) -Red Green

May 15, 2009, 11:04 AM	#11
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	Large Rifle primers, whether standard or mag, should measure between 0.128" and 0.132" in depth. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

May 15, 2009, 12:43 PM	#12
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	I wonder if the primers are out of spec. Back in the 80's CCI had some issues with primers not being uniform in size. Othen times I ended up bending a primer just trying to get to go in. It got so bad I stopped using them for awhile and bought Winchesters. I do know with my large rifle cartridges, I get the best groups with CCI's. I have not heard of Winchester having QC issues other than the switch from the silver colored to the brass colored primers. Seems with pistols, the primers were not going off all the time as the cups were harder. If not the primers then I would think there is something out of adjustment. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

May 14, 2009, 06:13 PM	#2
Prince55 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Posts: 472	I just went and measured some CCI Large Rifle primers & some Large Rifle Magnum primers with calipers and they were exactly the same. That was the only brand that I have and lucky to have them the way things are. The Winchesters are possibly a little different. Welcome here. Maybe someone else has a suggestion.

May 14, 2009, 06:23 PM	#3
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	I don't know if Hornady crimps in their primers,..but ...if they do,...does the primer pocket still have a "crimp" on it. If it does then you'll need to remove that first.

May 14, 2009, 06:28 PM	#4
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	What are you using to prime the cases? A primer that is on your press or something like a Lee auto prime. Can you also measure one of the taller primers? I'm with Prince55, I have CCI and there the same size, yours is NOT a stupid question, you don’t say what your loading for, but since its 308, it could be semi and you sure as heck don’t want a slam fire.

May 14, 2009, 07:05 PM	#5
ARIES78 Junior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Posts: 4	I am using a Dillon 550 to prime. I am loading for a Savage FP10 bolt gun. The primers measure .127" tall. The primer is sticking out of the case .015". I also tried regular Winchester brass and it did the same thing so I don't think it's a crimp issue.

May 14, 2009, 07:59 PM	#6
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	If you have a set of calipers try to measure the depth of the primer hole. But my guess is that there is something not working right with the Dillon.

May 15, 2009, 08:24 AM	#8
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	Thats a good idea Skullandcrossbones65 has. I had it happen once. I take it you are uniforming the pockets? Ozzieman is also correct you sure do not want a slam fire. Try it like Skullandcrossbones65 said, it sure cant hurt, and wont go bang. Thats the nice part. Good luck, and welcome to the forum. No question here is stupid. Just the one you do not ask. I have been loading for a long time and I am still asking pretty simple questions. I have learned alot from this forum just by reading the posts etc. Like just now on using a used primer.

May 15, 2009, 08:58 AM	#9
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	.015 primer protrusion is about .010 beyond the perfect head space in a chamber in the perfect world. You could check head space and primer seating depth at the same time. Prime a case with the primer sticking out with out powder/bullet chamber the primed case, close the bolt, if closing the bolt seats the primer, the protrusion of the primer should give you an ideal the effect that case has on head space in that rifle, in the perfect world head space will be .005, again I have an Enfield (Eddystone) M1917 with .016 head space with perfect ammo, I use cases that are .015 longer from the head of the case to the shoulder, something like a 30/06 +015, the +.015 case cuts down on the case head hammering on the bolt etc.. If closing the bolt seats the primer it is safe to say the problem is not the primer or case, that would leave the primer system on the press, I have hand primer systems, the problem with removing the case with a protruding primer is the shell holder or plate, the same applies to installing a high primer in a hand primer, the groove in the shell holder must be deep enough, a few shell holders do not have a groove, this protect the reloader from him/her self. F. Guffey

May 15, 2009, 02:39 PM	#13
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Aries78, Use your calipers to measure the DIAMETER of your primers. The specs are as follows: Code: dia cup height CCI 200 0.2112" 0.118" 250 0.2113" 0.118" Federal 210 0.2120" 0.117" Remington 9-1/2 0.2100" 0.119" Winchester LR 0.2114" 0.121" LRM 0.2114" 0.121" As you can see, Winchesters are a little larger than the others, except Federal. But, squeezing the cup down by a few ten-thousandths of an inch should not be a problem. They are supposed to be tight. SL1

May 16, 2009, 09:15 PM	#14
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Dillons are famous for priming problems. Use a Lee priming tool if you have one and finish seating them. Some will say this is dangerous, I've reseated/finished seating the primer on a blue million caes, never a "pop". Wear eye protection just to be safe though.

May 16, 2009, 10:06 PM	#15
Winchester 69 Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2009 Posts: 5	xxxxx Last edited by Winchester 69; May 17, 2009 at 09:38 PM.

May 17, 2009, 05:57 PM	#16
ARIES78 Junior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Posts: 4	Well guys thanks for all the help. It seems to be the Dillon. I got out an old Lee loading kit ( the one you use the mallet to bang everything in with ) and the primers seated all the way fine. I'm not sure why the dillon isn't working but atleast I know what it is now. Thanks again for all the help.