Weight spread Saeco 32-40 200 grain tapered bullet

[stubbicatt]

I casted up maybe close to 100 bullets yesterday, using a single cavity Saeco "Pope style" 200 grain, 32-40, bullet mould. I laid the bullets out in the order in which they were cast, and then began to weigh them.

Most weighed in the 203.5 to 203.9 grain range. The first one cast at 202.2 grains, number 10 at 203.5 grains. I guess this is to be expected as the mould comes up to temp and a rhythm is established. These would be culls in any event, no problem there.

I understand occasionally getting a light bullet -- indicative of a void perhaps in the casting. Occasionally, I would get a really heavy bullet, the heaviest was 204.5 grains. That I do not understand. Looks like I got 17 of them above 204 grains, and one at 204.5. When I see this, I begin to wonder if all those below 204.5 mightn't have voids?

If nothing I have learned, I have learned that once you get started, don't put sprues back in the pot, and don't stop to rest.

I have also learned that my technique needs improvement if I am seeing these sorts of weight ranges. I am casting at about 750-770*, ladle dipping. I have a RCBS dipper and a Lyman dipper, I find that the RCBS dipper is more user friendly, though I cannot say it is any more consistent.

In the pour, I skim the surface of the melt with the dipper to open up an unoxidized surface, and dip the melt from that spot. I pour a little into the pot thru the spout to make sure of unobstructed flow. Level the dipper, turn the mould 90 degrees, mate the sprue plate hole taper to the taper on the dipper, turn it all upright for a count of 3 seconds, and then disengage the ladle to pour a puddle on the sprueplate. Count 30 seconds, open sprue plate and put sprue in one box, the bullet in another, and line 'em up in the order they are cast.

I would like to get my finished product to .3 grains weight range. I am concerned that a significant percentage of the bullets weigh heavier than most, and reason that it isn't that the heavies had more melt in them for some reason, as the cavity is a finite volume, but worry that all the rest under that weight are imperfect for some reason.

Total weight variation is 1.2 grains, and nearly 1 grain after the mould is up to temp. Not good.

Suggestions?

[Dufus]

From my years of casting, I would think that a variation of 1.3 grains is very good. I used to sort my cast slugs by weights....not any more as it makes no difference that I can tell.

If I can't see a flaw, then it goes in the keeper pile. The most important thing is to have as near perfect base as possible. Good sharp edges and no holes.

I guess I am one of the few that does not dwell on the norm, but I have always dropped my sprues back in the pot as soon as they fall. I enjoy not having a large pile of them sitting idle.

When i am casting hollow points, I inspect them for flaws quickly, and if not good, I drop it back in the pot. I have never had any problems keeping constant alloy temps with my methods and find that I can cast from pot full to empty pot with out pause.

[stubbicatt]

It was illuminating to see how the first 10 bullets were becoming progressively heavier with each successive cast.

I'll think on it some more, and try other techniques and see what happens.

[Dufus]

Maybe do away with the waiting 30 seconds to cut the sprue. I can cast 3 bullets per minute with a single. As soon as I see the sprue set, I cut it and drop the bullet. With your method you are only making maybe one bullet per minute and not allowing your mold to stay at full operating temperature.

After I get the mold synced in, I have very few culls and almost always have a good bullet with each pour.

I am not sure that your goal of a 0.3 grain spread would be attainable by anyone that I know. That is a very narrow spread.

[Edarnold]

From many years experience shooting with the ASSRA crowd at Michigan City and Etna Green, a spread of +/- 0.5gr. Is doing very well, especially in a heavier bullet like your Pope. Considering that these folks were shooting sub-MOA groups off the bench at 100- and 200-yards, with bullets within that range of weight spread, I think your concern is unwarranted. Yes, there were shooters who shot batches of bullets in the order in which they were cast, claiming that was the Golden Secret, but I don't remember them doing any better than more relaxed individuals. One factor that did seem to make a difference, was having harder and softer lubed batches of bullets to accommodate the change in temperature from morning to afternoon. Things like lube, seating depth, alloy composition, and powder charge weight seemed to have much more effect than minute differences in bullet weight in achieving good accuracy, as long as the bullets were free of voids.

Just one guy's memories and opinions.

[stubbicatt]

Thanks fellas. If I broaden the acceptable range to .5 grains, easily 75% of those I casted will be acceptable.

I started out pouring, waiting for sprue to harden, count to 10, an cut and remove bullet, but I found that I got more smears and uneven, finned bases when I did that. I do think that 30 seconds is a little on the long side, and may try a 20 count next time. It is opinion only, but it *seems* that I get better bullet bases and no smears on the bottom of the sprue plate when I wait longer, and that the bullets drop easier once the mould is opened.

The whole lube issue is one I'm avoiding, sort of like not looking directly at the partially opened closet door in the dark, figuring if you don't look directly at the monster in the closet, he will go away? LOL. I guess once I've got the bullet weight dialed in, I'll work harder on developing a load range where things work well, and then I'll futz about with lube.

On a positive note I finally found a Fecker scope and hope to have it mounted in a couple weeks. It is hard to evaluate loads shot on targets with iron sights which I don't see so well anymore.

[Mike / Tx]

Try letting the sprue set, then give it a 4 - 5 count before cutting. That should give you a good base and keep you mold up to temp.

Also don't sweat the weight variance unless it is up to or over 5grs. The powder type and amount, and case tension will throw more curves at you.

[snuffy]

Stubbi, I'm not sure how the sprue plate is held on a Saeco mold, but a slight variation in how tightly it is held against the top of the mold can and will cause variations in boolit weight. Of course, that's what makes the heavier boolits, a slight increase in volume of the mold. I realize that you're putting pressure against the sprue plate with your pouring method, that should result in less variation.

Your variation of only 1.5 grains in a 200 grain boolit is tiny, I would be very happy if that's all mine were. I don't cast very many rifle boolits where I'm loading for an extremely accurate rifle. In fact I currently don't have one. I know of a club that shoots bench rest with only cast, I was supposed to try that out after talking to an old friend that shoots there. Recovering from CABG surgery last December has been a slow process. Most say it takes 1 to 1-½ years to get back to where you were before they split your chest.

Dropping sprues back into the pot as you're casting is a darn good way to get dirt inclusions in the boolits. The sprues are cooler than the melt, immediately sink to the bottom of the pot carrying with them any dirt on them to the spout. Ladle casting eliminates that by drawing from the surface, BUT agitation of the surface makes whatever tin your alloy has oxidize quicker. This then results in dross inclusions in the boolit. Frequent fluxing helps, but the sprues also have lots of oxides on them from their encounter with the oxygen in the air.

Another factor is weight variations is temperature swings. Most pots are poor at regulating temp. My Lee 4-20, well both of them, had swings of 25 degrees. That's before I built a PID that I can switch between the 2 pots. Now it varies by only 1-2 degrees.

Your technique with the ladle is exactly how I do it when I'm ladle casting. I get a lot more uniform casts for long rifle boolits when ladle casting. My pistol/handgun boolits are all made with bottom pour from the Lee 4-20 pot, most often with Lee six cavity molds. I don't weight sort them, just a check to see what they're dropping at. I look at each one, rejecting the ones that have wrinkles in them, mostly I get 95% good boolits.

[Dufus]

Well, I used to get dirt cast in the bullets when I did not drop the sprues in the pot and used wax from candles and once in a while bullet lube as a flux. When I switched to saw dust, all that went away.

I keep a good thick layer of burned up saw dust over the alloy when casting and doing it this way, I have not had even one occurrence of dirt in a bullet.

I believe this also keeps the oxide out since there is no air contact with the alloy. I can skim the ash over and the metal is as shiny as it can be.

[stubbicatt]

One day I'm going to try that sawdust method.

I've been breach seating bullets so far, and have learned quite a bit from that practice. But since I'll be shooting cowboy silhouette much more than schuetzen, I'm now branching off into fixed ammo. Since I only have the one mould, I thought I'd try fixed ammo with the tapered bullets I just cast.

Since the rifle is throated for breach seating, I decided my first fixed ammo with the tapered bullet would as closely approximate breach seating as I could muster, so I loaded long, and seated just a skosh deeper until I got to the point where I could just press the cartridge into the chamber with my thumb and readily close the action. I downloaded my best so far powder charge obtained with breach seated bullets a couple clicks on the powder measure, and loaded up 5 rounds to see how they do.

In the process, I learned that my RCBS expander mandrel is just too dang small, so ordered up a custom expander from BACO. I'll try again when it gets here. Also ordered up some 38-55 brass to form into 32-40, so I don't find myself using my Winchester 32-40 brass, which is nearly irreplaceable at this point in time.

If the experiment works, I'll be in clover. I don't need 1 ½ inch 200 yard accuracy with the silhouette game, the limiting factor there, as anywhere, being my ability to hold the rifle well enough to hit from standing.

So. We'll see.

ETA: Snuffy, I hope you are feeling up to snuff soon.

[Dufus]

Best of luck with the silhouette shooting. I shot handgun silhouette years ago and it is loads of fun. Tried rifle, but I enjoyed the handgun stuff much more.

If you wanna try the sawdust, one suggestion is to visit either a pet store or Wally World and get the stuff that they have packaged for bedding. I bought a bag of pine @ Wally World last week for less than $3.00 and it should last me for a while.

I have a big electric pot for mixing my alloys and I use the sawdust during that duty as well. I have been getting much better results since I switched. I hope that it the reason, but it is the only change that I have made to my casting routine in quite some time.

If you have read any work by Glen Fryxell, you will find that he believes sawdust is the only way to flux.