Point Shooting Demo

riverkeeper · September 9, 2006, 05:05 AM

Yea it's in the movies..'Collateral'.

It appears that unsighted '1/2 Hip' is used on the first guy and extended point on the second guy where the pistol is high in the field of view. The last shot on the second guy may be FSP or similar. The pros on the board may know for sure.

http://www.the-roberts.info/gallery/...collateral.mpg

Recall I read somewhere that Tommy Boy got to be pretty fair at this and managed the rounds in 1.05 sec tho I do not know how it was timed.

We practice this stuff with approx 10x16 inch 2 to 3 reactive hanging targets made of plywood or cardboard. We've gone up to 6 targets at times just for giggles. Any number of unsighted or sighting methods are used in one string. Fun Stuff.

mjrodney · September 9, 2006, 06:04 AM

Ficticious though it might be, it still serves to remind me why violent crime is reportedly down in many states that have concealed carry laws.

CDH · September 9, 2006, 07:02 AM

Ficticious, sure, but I'd still like to know what holster and pistol he used, especially the holster.

Carter

VeT|Us · September 9, 2006, 11:06 AM

If I recall correctly, its an USP.

hot sauce · September 9, 2006, 11:13 AM

I think it is a USP 45.

pickpocket · September 9, 2006, 11:52 AM

I rather like the "unsighted downward lateral" shot at the end of the clip

riverkeeper · September 9, 2006, 02:23 PM

"""I rather like the "unsighted downward lateral" shot"""

That's one of my favorite shots in recent movies.

I'm assuming everyone knows Cruise was playing a hit man in the flick.

Esquire M Busterbury · September 9, 2006, 02:44 PM

What a great movie...And I hate Tom too. But how many of us here think they could react that smoothly in that situation? Like butta.

rhino · September 9, 2006, 02:55 PM

When it's in the script and we get to rehearse, plus have a good editor for post production?

Most of us!

foob · September 9, 2006, 05:35 PM

The video is cool.

Lucky for Tom he doesn't really need to aim though.

I thought it would be better to push the perp's hand to the left, but he pushed it to the right instead.

riverkeeper · September 9, 2006, 08:01 PM

The movie was good too (even with Cruise in it, Cruise is OK, Foxx is quite good).

Pushing-slapping-hitting the weapon across the other guy's (OG, they're both bad guys) body has a few advantages. Cruise correctly (IMO) used strength against weakness and maintained a centered body position to quickly nail the other guy too... but I ain't no ninja but do have some martial training.

1. Cruise's arm movement is much stronger and possibly faster when moving from outside to inside.
2. OG's arm is weaker resisting movement that way and slower to get back on target if he even retained the gun.
3. Slapped the other way, the gun wrist and/or elbow could be bent to get off a shot during or after the slap.
4. To take the OG's arm outside, he'd may've needed his gun hand which would slowed everthing down to the point where #2 finally would've gotten into play. His back would've been more toward #2.

Cruise aimed, he just didn't look at his sights.

Sweatnbullets · September 10, 2006, 04:01 PM

Yep, ficticious as all heck. The amount of time BG#2 spent holding his gun in his waistband turns an actually real life scenario into a real joke. At least make it look as if there was an attempt to get that gun into play.

Point shooting is nice and fast, but this clip is a very dangerous in portraying something that is next to impossible. Drawing from the drop is very tough against one adversary, but against two and with no movement.....that is a suicide drill 99 out of 100 times.

Entertainment value only, except in the case of a "one on one" parry, draw, and shoot at close contact (the #2.)

Esquire M Busterbury · September 10, 2006, 04:33 PM

I can see why he pushed BG#1's gun to the right, keeps him worrying about shooting his partner and keeps the partner worrying about being shot. Plus, BG#2 should have gotten a bobbed hammer or adjusted the tension screws on his holster...cuz it cost him!

matthew temkin · September 10, 2006, 10:21 PM

Another possibility..one that I learned from an interesting Russian vet in Poland..is to use the dead guy as a shield.
Food for thought.

leadbutt · September 11, 2006, 05:50 PM

At that stage in the flick he was still using the 1911 as I remember with an IWB rig, movement was well done, and the way it was staged showed how it should have ended..

Chris Phelps · September 11, 2006, 07:08 PM

Quote:

At that stage in the flick he was still using the 1911 as I remember with an IWB rig, movement was well done, and the way it was staged showed how it should have ended..

Agreed totally.

Quote:

But how many of us here think they could react that smoothly in that situation? Like butta.

Depends.... Would we have an extensive background in the Special Forces followed by a 6 year career as a contract killer? If so, Im sure all of us could react like that.

Quote:

Yep, ficticious as all heck. The amount of time BG#2 spent holding his gun in his waistband turns an actually real life scenario into a real joke.

Not always. Most criminals who mug people have no intention of a shot ever being fired and could probably be run off by the victim screaming "BOO" at him. Statistics have proven this time and time again. For people of this type, the gun has no use past that of its 'intimidation', which it would have equally as well when being held at the side.

Quote:

Ficticious though it might be, it still serves to remind me why violent crime is reportedly down in many states that have concealed carry laws.

Roger that!

Quote:

Recall I read somewhere that Tommy Boy got to be pretty fair at this and managed the rounds in 1.05 sec tho I do not know how it was timed.

Yes sir... they brought in an ex SAS soldier to work with tom. The training lasted for 3 months, and tom was practicing with live ammo in a number of conditions on a number of targets. This particular scene, in fact, was done with live ammo on non-reactive targets. The scene in the club where he rolls over onto his back and fires at targets was also preformed as a live fire excersize at an earlier date.

You guys should rent the video and watch the 'behind the scenes' footage. The depth of training given to Tom in order to equip him for the roll was quite impressive, and not as unrealistic as some of you are making it out to be.

/ $0.02

pickpocket · September 11, 2006, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Temkin

Another possibility..one that I learned from an interesting Russian vet in Poland..is to use the dead guy as a shield.
Food for thought.

HA! I had a similar "drill" for CQB training that I would run my guys through; half tongue-in-cheeck, half not.

Mikeyboy · September 11, 2006, 09:36 PM

I actual got the DVD for my birthday and in the special features it showed that Cruise was trained by some SAS combat pistol expert. He praticed with live ammo. If it was your usual action hero and not Tom Cruise I would not have been overly impressed with the movie or this scene.

Hey Homie??? Come on now, how geekie can you get.

18DAI · September 11, 2006, 10:16 PM

The pistol he used in that scene, and through most of the movie, was an HK USP 45 full size. The guys over on HKPRO blew up some stills. The holster was an IWB Kydex IIRC. I don't remember the manufacturer. Regards 18DAI.

The Canuck · September 11, 2006, 10:52 PM

When he pushed the BG's hand to the right he risked getting himself shot Center Of Mass by the BG, agree?, If the BG had his pistol aligned COM on Tom, then it would have been the best thing to do, but from my POV it looks as if Tom dragged the BG's muzzle across his own torso. While the technique is valid in gun retention & hand-hand with firearm drills to push him so that you are to his outside afterwards, it is more important to keep his muzzle off of you. Of course the drills assume that the other guy knows to put his muzzle on your COM instead of waving the firearm around like an idiot.

hso · September 12, 2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

3. Slapped the other way, the gun wrist and/or elbow could be bent to get off a shot during or after the slap.

Yep

Quote:

When he pushed the BG's hand to the right he risked getting himself shot Center Of Mass by the BG, agree?

No more so than if he pushed it the other way.

Looks like what was done pushed the BG arm off center in such a way that it couldn't fold back in to point the weapon bact at center while Cruize stepped back with the right side "blading" and moving himself slightly off line to further protect the center.

September 9, 2006, 11:52 AM	#6
pickpocket Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 570	I rather like the "unsighted downward lateral" shot at the end of the clip __________________ Semper Fi- David Williams "Sabah al khair -- ismee Dave, ahnee al Shayṭān"

September 9, 2006, 02:23 PM	#7
riverkeeper Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2004 Location: Tacoma, Washington Posts: 214	"""I rather like the "unsighted downward lateral" shot""" That's one of my favorite shots in recent movies. I'm assuming everyone knows Cruise was playing a hit man in the flick. __________________ "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." -- Bertrand de Jouvenel ........ 'All the wooly-headed thinking explains the happy howling.' -- r

September 9, 2006, 08:01 PM	#11
riverkeeper Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2004 Location: Tacoma, Washington Posts: 214	The movie was good too (even with Cruise in it, Cruise is OK, Foxx is quite good). Pushing-slapping-hitting the weapon across the other guy's (OG, they're both bad guys) body has a few advantages. Cruise correctly (IMO) used strength against weakness and maintained a centered body position to quickly nail the other guy too... but I ain't no ninja but do have some martial training. 1. Cruise's arm movement is much stronger and possibly faster when moving from outside to inside. 2. OG's arm is weaker resisting movement that way and slower to get back on target if he even retained the gun. 3. Slapped the other way, the gun wrist and/or elbow could be bent to get off a shot during or after the slap. 4. To take the OG's arm outside, he'd may've needed his gun hand which would slowed everthing down to the point where #2 finally would've gotten into play. His back would've been more toward #2. Cruise aimed, he just didn't look at his sights. __________________ "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." -- Bertrand de Jouvenel ........ 'All the wooly-headed thinking explains the happy howling.' -- r

September 10, 2006, 04:01 PM	#12
Sweatnbullets Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2002 Posts: 263	Yep, ficticious as all heck. The amount of time BG#2 spent holding his gun in his waistband turns an actually real life scenario into a real joke. At least make it look as if there was an attempt to get that gun into play. Point shooting is nice and fast, but this clip is a very dangerous in portraying something that is next to impossible. Drawing from the drop is very tough against one adversary, but against two and with no movement.....that is a suicide drill 99 out of 100 times. Entertainment value only, except in the case of a "one on one" parry, draw, and shoot at close contact (the #2.) __________________ "Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts

September 11, 2006, 05:50 PM	#15
leadbutt Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2002 Location: Tidewater,Virginia Posts: 289	At that stage in the flick he was still using the 1911 as I remember with an IWB rig, movement was well done, and the way it was staged showed how it should have ended.. __________________ "I am always willing to learn,but not always willing to be taught" Sir Winston Churchill

September 9, 2006, 05:05 AM	#1
riverkeeper Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2004 Location: Tacoma, Washington Posts: 214	Point Shooting Demo Yea it's in the movies..'Collateral'. It appears that unsighted '1/2 Hip' is used on the first guy and extended point on the second guy where the pistol is high in the field of view. The last shot on the second guy may be FSP or similar. The pros on the board may know for sure. http://www.the-roberts.info/gallery/...collateral.mpg Recall I read somewhere that Tommy Boy got to be pretty fair at this and managed the rounds in 1.05 sec tho I do not know how it was timed. We practice this stuff with approx 10x16 inch 2 to 3 reactive hanging targets made of plywood or cardboard. We've gone up to 6 targets at times just for giggles. Any number of unsighted or sighting methods are used in one string. Fun Stuff. __________________ "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." -- Bertrand de Jouvenel ........ 'All the wooly-headed thinking explains the happy howling.' -- r

September 9, 2006, 06:04 AM	#2
mjrodney Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 435	Ficticious though it might be, it still serves to remind me why violent crime is reportedly down in many states that have concealed carry laws. __________________ Proud supporter of the NRA

September 9, 2006, 07:02 AM	#3
CDH Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 941	Ficticious, sure, but I'd still like to know what holster and pistol he used, especially the holster. Carter

September 9, 2006, 11:06 AM	#4
VeT\|Us Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Posts: 44	If I recall correctly, its an USP.

September 9, 2006, 11:13 AM	#5
hot sauce Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Posts: 519	I think it is a USP 45.

September 9, 2006, 02:44 PM	#8
Esquire M Busterbury Junior member Join Date: July 29, 2006 Posts: 445	What a great movie...And I hate Tom too. But how many of us here think they could react that smoothly in that situation? Like butta.

September 9, 2006, 02:55 PM	#9
rhino Member Join Date: August 25, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 80	When it's in the script and we get to rehearse, plus have a good editor for post production? Most of us!

September 9, 2006, 05:35 PM	#10
foob Member Join Date: July 22, 2006 Posts: 99	The video is cool. Lucky for Tom he doesn't really need to aim though. I thought it would be better to push the perp's hand to the left, but he pushed it to the right instead.

September 10, 2006, 04:33 PM	#13
Esquire M Busterbury Junior member Join Date: July 29, 2006 Posts: 445	I can see why he pushed BG#1's gun to the right, keeps him worrying about shooting his partner and keeps the partner worrying about being shot. Plus, BG#2 should have gotten a bobbed hammer or adjusted the tension screws on his holster...cuz it cost him!

September 10, 2006, 10:21 PM	#14
matthew temkin Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 363	Another possibility..one that I learned from an interesting Russian vet in Poland..is to use the dead guy as a shield. Food for thought.

September 11, 2006, 09:36 PM	#18
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	I actual got the DVD for my birthday and in the special features it showed that Cruise was trained by some SAS combat pistol expert. He praticed with live ammo. If it was your usual action hero and not Tom Cruise I would not have been overly impressed with the movie or this scene. Hey Homie??? Come on now, how geekie can you get.

September 11, 2006, 10:16 PM	#19
18DAI Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 2,156	The pistol he used in that scene, and through most of the movie, was an HK USP 45 full size. The guys over on HKPRO blew up some stills. The holster was an IWB Kydex IIRC. I don't remember the manufacturer. Regards 18DAI.

September 11, 2006, 10:52 PM	#20
The Canuck Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2006 Location: Calgary Alberta, Canada Posts: 307	When he pushed the BG's hand to the right he risked getting himself shot Center Of Mass by the BG, agree?, If the BG had his pistol aligned COM on Tom, then it would have been the best thing to do, but from my POV it looks as if Tom dragged the BG's muzzle across his own torso. While the technique is valid in gun retention & hand-hand with firearm drills to push him so that you are to his outside afterwards, it is more important to keep his muzzle off of you. Of course the drills assume that the other guy knows to put his muzzle on your COM instead of waving the firearm around like an idiot. __________________ "If you put one in the snot locker, it doesn't matter what calibre it is".