problem chambering .357 mag reloads - Page 2

Tuzo · July 26, 2012, 11:30 AM

Sport45

Not entirely correct. Running a finished cartridge through the sizing die (without the deprimer of course) slightly tightens the case grip on the bullet while smoothing any slight bulge that hampers chambering. How does this result in only the crimp securing the bullet? Roll crimp is not altered nor anything else that is critical to cartridge integrity.

In fact, the Lee Factory Crimp die does the same thing with the carbide sizing ring. I do not have a FCD so the carbide sizing ring in my RCBS sizing die serves the same function.

Try it. You'll like it.

peter_s · July 26, 2012, 04:25 PM

Tuzo - I think the objection to using the sizing die in this way is that any lead is likely to stay compressed from the pressure of the die while the brass of the case will spring back slightly...so you lose some of the neck tension.

Whether or not this happens in practice I don't know, I have never tried it, but the theory makes sense to me...

Tuzo · July 26, 2012, 05:46 PM

PeterS

If that is the case then the Lee Factory Crimp Die applies crimp and decreases casing tension on the bullet because it uses a carbide sizer. When I measured my difficult-to-chamber cartridges before and after sizing the diameter was indeed smaller. This indicates constriction, as in increased tension or grip, not rebound and resultant decrease in tension.

All this applies to straight wall pistol cartridges.

This is a good informative discussion.

Sport45 · July 26, 2012, 07:55 PM

The carbide sizer in the Lee Carbide FCD is much larger than what you have in a sizing die. The FCD does not make an effective sizing die as it's barely smaller than chamber diameter.

My pistol FCD's do not size anything. The sizing ring may kiss the flare on the way down, but that's about it.

Edward429451 · July 27, 2012, 09:43 AM

You're probably loading jacketed bullets. Try loading some oversize cast. They you can see what the destruction is all about.

Sport45 · July 27, 2012, 10:41 AM

He was talking about sizing loaded rounds with a sizing die. That's much worse than using a carbide FCD, don't you think?

I use properly sized cast bullets and have had no problem with the Lee die. YMMV

Edward429451 · July 27, 2012, 11:01 AM

I'll agree with that.

Uncle Buck · July 28, 2012, 10:15 AM

Quote:

I have also seen this issue when the brass is from one gun and hasn't been fully resized. You could have a bulge at the case head that sticks and leaves the last 1/8-1/16" out of the chamber.

I have run in to this a couple of times and I fixed the problem by placing the rounds in the resizing die (minus de-capping pin) and giving the revolver cylinder a really good cleaning. (I used to shoot .38 Spec in my .357 mag.)

When the nephews use my guns, the rule is the last person to shoot it cleans it. Some of them are more observant than others when it comes to cleaning.

I will take a piece of copper chore boy pot scrubber and wrap in around my bore brush. Soak it as best I can in cleaner and run it in and out of the cylinder, then clean with a patch.

Since doing these two steps I have no had a problem with this issue.

Tuzo · July 28, 2012, 11:42 AM

Uncle Buck

As stated in my post, this is what I have also done with 38 spl cartridges that did not fully chamber. No harm is done to anything nor is it dangerous. For everyone's information, the bullets are hard cast round nose 158 gr and only about a dozen out of 100 had difficulty chambering in two S&W's and one Taurus.

I would have used a Lee FCD if I had one for that cartridge.

Shootest · July 29, 2012, 12:29 AM

The carbide ring in the Lee factory crimp die is at the maximum case dimension and the sizing die is at the minimum dimension. If you run a seated cartridge through a sizing die you WILL end up with a under size bullet, which can cause accuracy and barrel leading problems.

Edward429451 · July 29, 2012, 09:19 AM

I must've had a defective FCD then. I size to .430 and my loaded cartridges fit fine in all my 44s, plunk, right in. After buying a FCD to see what all the hoo-haw was about...it was very clear to me that FCDs (or at least mine) was not to any max tolerance or dimension. The started crunch at the top of the case and it was so much that I didn't need to pull it (could not in fact) to see and know that my bullet was destroyed and sized down.

Quote:

The carbide ring in the Lee factory crimp die is at the maximum case dimension and the sizing die is at the minimum dimension.

Ok...let me ask to what Max dimensions they are held to? Maximum for Jacketed bullets? That would explain it. More than one person has made the statement that the crimp ring doesn't even engage the round. I believe them, they can't all be lieing. So why did mine? Am I lieing? Have I an agenda against Lee? Certainly not! So wherein lies the difference?

Bullet size. I surmise that these people are loading jacketed, or nominal cast size, which would be incorrect according to all I know about loading cast. Or else I had a defective FCD. Lee is known for their moulds coming undersized so I suppose it could happen with a crimp ring too.

Sport45 · July 29, 2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Ok...let me ask to what Max dimensions they are held to?

My research on the subject (and I'm no expert) says the FCD sizing ring is something like .001 or .002 smaller than the SAMMI chamber spec. Maybe smaller than the minimum spec? I don't know.

The ring in a sizing die should be something smaller than the maximum cartridge diameter which would have to be less than the minimum chamber diameter.

That's why the carbide FCD has to be larger than the sizing die. If it wasn't, it would squash bullets as you describe.

Tuzo · July 29, 2012, 11:23 AM

"If you run a seated cartridge through a sizing die you WILL end up with a under size bullet, which can cause accuracy and barrel leading problems."

No such thing happens. How can it happen? Compared the diameter just below the crimp of recently loaded 38 spl's with a few 38 spl's that were given the resizing die treatment. Diameters are 0.375" to 0.376". This is appreciably greater than the 0.355" to 0.357" diameter of the hard cast bullets.

The resizing die cannot and does not alter the bullet diameter because the carbide ring diameter is greater than bullet diameter and does not contact the bullet. Brass thickness is accounted for where bullet contacts casing. Zero distortion of the roll crimp. During shooting, accuracy is not affected and leading is no more than normal with hard cast bullets.

Final say based on experience, measurement, and shooting:
1) My resizing solution to chambering difficulty with a few cartridges resulted in cartridges that measured the same as those that were not resized and chambered normally.
2) No altered crimp or loose grip on the bullet.
3) No increased leading.
4) No decrease in accuracy.
5) No change in bullet diameter.
6) Cannot sense any difference while shooting.
7) Discovered that chambers were not undersized nor fouled.
8) It works and solved a problem.

Shootest · July 29, 2012, 02:49 PM

The normal case wall of 38spl is .010-.012 thick, times 2 since there are 2 sides of a case in the diameter equals at least .020. If you finished round is .376 minus the .020 of the case equals .356. Since most of us load .357 or .358 diameter bullet in the 38spl, their will be some bullet deformation. Now if you load .355 bullets in the 38 then I’m not surprised you didn’t notice any MORE leading. But you are the expert so you do what you want.

Edward429451 · July 29, 2012, 08:59 PM

Quote:

No such thing happens. How can it happen?

WADR, this is one of those things that sounds good on paper, you have a logical flow of thought...but it doesn't pan out like on paper in the real world. Those of us that use fat boolits and tried FCD have experienced boolit reduction. I know it's not supposed to happen, but it does.

When you guys buy or cast & size lead bullets, do you check the diameter of the slugs or just go by what the box says? Sometimes bullet diameters are a little shy of advertised diameter. Colorado Cast Bullets are one example. I used to use their 225gr LFP's that were advertised as .452 and guess what? They were .451.

Quote:

8) It works and solved a problem.

It masked the problem. It treated the symptom but not the cause. You can do this if you choose, but it did not solve anything. You should be able to load a round and have it chamber in your gun without having to iron it out with a die. I can. I use Lymans excellant "M" dies which are designed for lead boolits. The brass does not get over flared, over worked, or need ironed out, lol. The boolit gets seated square and straight with no shaving or damage. Bullet seating is one of the most critical steps in loading good ammo and boolit fit in throat and bore depend on size very much so.

Good luck with your loading but know this...you could be doing better! A lyman M die would be a better investment than a FCD.

Tuzo · July 29, 2012, 10:28 PM

"Good luck with your loading but know this...you could be doing better!"

Ain't that the truth!

As stated earlier, only a few cartridges were run through the sizing die. The reason for the failure to fully chamber may have been too little flare causing a canted bullet during seating resulting in a slight bulge. To all respondents: I realize that this is not a normal procedure and sincere thanks for your concern.

As an aside, I use Lee FCD in 40 S&W and 45 ACP for almost the same reason - removing "Glock bulge" from range pickup brass.

July 26, 2012, 07:55 PM	#29
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	The carbide sizer in the Lee Carbide FCD is much larger than what you have in a sizing die. The FCD does not make an effective sizing die as it's barely smaller than chamber diameter. My pistol FCD's do not size anything. The sizing ring may kiss the flare on the way down, but that's about it. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 27, 2012, 10:41 AM	#31
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	He was talking about sizing loaded rounds with a sizing die. That's much worse than using a carbide FCD, don't you think? I use properly sized cast bullets and have had no problem with the Lee die. YMMV __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 29, 2012, 12:29 AM	#35
Shootest Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2011 Location: Just outside Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 722	The carbide ring in the Lee factory crimp die is at the maximum case dimension and the sizing die is at the minimum dimension. If you run a seated cartridge through a sizing die you WILL end up with a under size bullet, which can cause accuracy and barrel leading problems. __________________ The private ownership of firearms is an American Heritage. Anyone who disputes that is Anti-American and unpatriotic. NRA Life Member

July 29, 2012, 02:49 PM	#39
Shootest Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2011 Location: Just outside Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 722	The normal case wall of 38spl is .010-.012 thick, times 2 since there are 2 sides of a case in the diameter equals at least .020. If you finished round is .376 minus the .020 of the case equals .356. Since most of us load .357 or .358 diameter bullet in the 38spl, their will be some bullet deformation. Now if you load .355 bullets in the 38 then I’m not surprised you didn’t notice any MORE leading. But you are the expert so you do what you want. __________________ The private ownership of firearms is an American Heritage. Anyone who disputes that is Anti-American and unpatriotic. NRA Life Member

July 26, 2012, 11:30 AM	#26
Tuzo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 797	Sport45 Not entirely correct. Running a finished cartridge through the sizing die (without the deprimer of course) slightly tightens the case grip on the bullet while smoothing any slight bulge that hampers chambering. How does this result in only the crimp securing the bullet? Roll crimp is not altered nor anything else that is critical to cartridge integrity. In fact, the Lee Factory Crimp die does the same thing with the carbide sizing ring. I do not have a FCD so the carbide sizing ring in my RCBS sizing die serves the same function. Try it. You'll like it.

July 26, 2012, 04:25 PM	#27
peter_s Member Join Date: January 25, 2011 Posts: 46	Tuzo - I think the objection to using the sizing die in this way is that any lead is likely to stay compressed from the pressure of the die while the brass of the case will spring back slightly...so you lose some of the neck tension. Whether or not this happens in practice I don't know, I have never tried it, but the theory makes sense to me...

July 26, 2012, 05:46 PM	#28
Tuzo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 797	PeterS If that is the case then the Lee Factory Crimp Die applies crimp and decreases casing tension on the bullet because it uses a carbide sizer. When I measured my difficult-to-chamber cartridges before and after sizing the diameter was indeed smaller. This indicates constriction, as in increased tension or grip, not rebound and resultant decrease in tension. All this applies to straight wall pistol cartridges. This is a good informative discussion.

July 27, 2012, 09:43 AM	#30
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	You're probably loading jacketed bullets. Try loading some oversize cast. They you can see what the destruction is all about.

July 27, 2012, 11:01 AM	#32
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I'll agree with that.

July 28, 2012, 11:42 AM	#34
Tuzo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 797	Uncle Buck As stated in my post, this is what I have also done with 38 spl cartridges that did not fully chamber. No harm is done to anything nor is it dangerous. For everyone's information, the bullets are hard cast round nose 158 gr and only about a dozen out of 100 had difficulty chambering in two S&W's and one Taurus. I would have used a Lee FCD if I had one for that cartridge.

July 29, 2012, 11:23 AM	#38
Tuzo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 797	"If you run a seated cartridge through a sizing die you WILL end up with a under size bullet, which can cause accuracy and barrel leading problems." No such thing happens. How can it happen? Compared the diameter just below the crimp of recently loaded 38 spl's with a few 38 spl's that were given the resizing die treatment. Diameters are 0.375" to 0.376". This is appreciably greater than the 0.355" to 0.357" diameter of the hard cast bullets. The resizing die cannot and does not alter the bullet diameter because the carbide ring diameter is greater than bullet diameter and does not contact the bullet. Brass thickness is accounted for where bullet contacts casing. Zero distortion of the roll crimp. During shooting, accuracy is not affected and leading is no more than normal with hard cast bullets. Final say based on experience, measurement, and shooting: 1) My resizing solution to chambering difficulty with a few cartridges resulted in cartridges that measured the same as those that were not resized and chambered normally. 2) No altered crimp or loose grip on the bullet. 3) No increased leading. 4) No decrease in accuracy. 5) No change in bullet diameter. 6) Cannot sense any difference while shooting. 7) Discovered that chambers were not undersized nor fouled. 8) It works and solved a problem.

July 29, 2012, 10:28 PM	#41
Tuzo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 797	"Good luck with your loading but know this...you could be doing better!" Ain't that the truth! As stated earlier, only a few cartridges were run through the sizing die. The reason for the failure to fully chamber may have been too little flare causing a canted bullet during seating resulting in a slight bulge. To all respondents: I realize that this is not a normal procedure and sincere thanks for your concern. As an aside, I use Lee FCD in 40 S&W and 45 ACP for almost the same reason - removing "Glock bulge" from range pickup brass.