Opinion on this 40 load

[jim8115]

Got some zero 165 JHP.Loading with Power Pistol . The closest published data I could find was speer
They show 7.0 (978 fps) to 7.8 ( 1081fps)
I decided to go with 7.1. They feel pretty stout, and chrono at 1100 FPS from my XD40. They are extremelly accurate.

Any opinions ? is this too hot?

JIM

[Nick_C_S]

I need to start by saying I don't load, shoot or own a 40 Cal. I do L,S,O a couple 10mm's though.

But when I read this, then looked at the same Speer #14 book, it caught my attention. There's a JDLR here. Just Doesn't Look Right.

That's a big velocity bump from the published data. I'd be concerned.

I'm reluctant to speculate, but now might be a good time to retrace your steps. Maybe pull a bullet (if you have any remaining), make sure you got the right powder, the right weight, etc. We're human. Then maybe check your chrono against a "known good" round.

Maybe there's no problem; but a velocity deviation of that degree - to the high side, especially - should make your dander perk up.

[jepp2]

Hodgdon Reloading Data Center has much better data than Alliant offers. But since Power Pistol is Alliant, I use a comparison of Hodgdon Universal. It is next to Power Pistol in burn rate. The max velocity for Universal with 165 gr bullet is around 1050. Pressure for that load was right at 33K PSI.

Based on your speed, seems you are either at max or slightly above. Any signs of excessive pressure?

[noylj]

The closest published data is what respect?
All standard jacketed bullets use the same load data, except for COL. All load data only shows what someone got with a particular barrel/chamber and specific lots of components. Nobody's data is necessarily any better than any one else's--it all depends on what they used for testing and how that compares to what you are shooting.
My data compilation of many sources, where I start with the lowest starting load, shows that I would have started at 6.3gn, with the first MAX load being 7.0gn. I have found that 6.5gn is accurate, with 6.8gn (1021fps) seeming to be max in my gun.
I would say you are at max or over max.

[jepp2]

Nobody's data is necessarily any better than any one else's-

By "better" I meant more complete. Alliant data shows only a single data point, no starting load, no max load, and no pressure. The Hodgdon data shows a starting powder load, the max powder load, the velocity for both loads and the pressure for both loads.

[jim8115]

" but now might be a good time to retrace your steps. Maybe pull a bullet (if you have any remaining), make sure you got the right powder, the right weight, etc. "

I would actually give anyone else the same advice, however i can 100% guarantee they are loaded as i specified.

I use a checklist when i load, first I write down thw load and powder, then when I get started, i check back, powder? PP -check, Load 7.1-check, etc
and I hand weigh every load, and check my scale against a second scale

JIM

[jim8115]

I did not see any signs of overpressure, however, I really think that by the time you see those signs, you are usually alraedy way over.

JIM

[Brian Pfleuger]

There's more to it that bullet weight and powder charge but I'd bet you're no where near over max.

How far was the muzzle from the chrony?

[Nick_C_S]

I did not see any signs of overpressure, however, I really think that by the time you see those signs, you are usually alraedy way over.

You're right. Signs of overpressure may not be apparent.

Sounds like you were quite thorough. It might be prudent to reduce this load by a few 10th's. You don't want to hurt your gun.

[jim8115]

Chrony was about 10 feet away

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

With Glock 20 that I welded up the feed ramp and then re cut the feed ramp for case support to the case web, I have worked up to the limit of 40sw with Power Pistol:


Reference load:
Power Pistol Alliant load [current web site]: 200gr Power Pistol 6.3 gr.,
960 fps, 33,700 psi, 1.130", 4"

End of work up load:
13.5 gr. OAL springs out to 1.147",12.5 gr. 200 gr. and the primer fell out.
Intense recoil, +98% extra powder

When the primer falls out, I have to stop.
A 10mm case would never get that far.

[SL1]

Jim,

The bullet seating depth can make a big difference in the .40 S&W.

QuickLOAD showes the Speer 165 grain GD and FMJ bullets as 0.560" in length, and my Speer Manual #14 showes a COL of 1.120" for those bullets in their load data. That means that the base of the bullet was 1.120" - 0.560" = 0.560" from the BACK surface of the case in the rounds used to develop Speer load data. (I am doing it that way instead of using distance from the case mouth to avoid ambiguities/complexities due to varying case lengths.)

If you measure the COL of your loaded rounds and subtract the length of your Zero 165 grain bullets, that will give you a figure to compare to 0.560". If your loads give a lower number, then they are probably producing a higher pressure, which could account for your higher velocity.

If that is what is happening, then post the length of your Zero bullets and the COL you used and we can help you adjust the powder charge to give the same load density as the Speer data used. That should give you roughly the same pressure, within the unknowns of case volume, powder lots, primer lots, etc.

SL1

[57K]

noylj, I have to disagree a bit. Coefficients of friction with jacketed bullets of the same weight change with shank length, jacket material and of course OACL as mentioned in the previous post. For copper jacketed bullets, the SIERRA data is usable for a lot of different JHPs because of the long shank that they have and I wouldn't load any JHP shorter than 1.120" in .40 and 1.125" being even better for me, personally. Golden Sabers with their brass jackets can not simply be loaded with bullet weight being the only determining factor.

Jim8115, I have the Lyman Pistol & Revolver III and because of pistols on the market that give inadequate support of the case-head, Lyman does not exceed the pretty mild load level of 24,000 CUP. Different measuring system that Lyman still finds useful, but I haven't seen a SAAMI Max. Average Pressure, or MAP rating in CUP. But as an example, the 9 x 19mm is rated for standard MAP in both systems where 35,000 PSI is equivelant to 33,000 CUP. Lyman's Max. load for the SPEER 165 gr. TMJ is 7.0 grs. of PP (that's what I like to call it, LOL) and the pressure rating for that load is 22,000 CUP. You should be fine at 7.1 grs, but it certainly won't hurt to consult the SIERRA or SPEER manuals and go to www.alliantpowder.com I don't know the intended purpose of your load and I have loaded 9mm, .40 and .45 with PP and shot loads at night. I, personally, would only use PP for range ammo. If you have a chance to shoot your handloads with PP at night, you'll see why. Same thing with Blue Dot and a number of other FLAKE powders. But particular to the .40 S&W loaded with PP or BD, you can expect a very bright fireball extending at least 18" from the muzzle. None of my defense loads get loaded with any flake propellant. In fact, for high velocity loads in 9mm, .40 and .45, Ramshot Silhouette excels with very good ballistic uniformity that you'll see SD numbers to determine that for yourself using your chrono. Accuracy, more importantly will coincide with the low SD numbers and Silhouette is one of very few powders available to the handloader that's chemically treated for low flash. And for those dedicated Alliant fans, they have finally released their low flash powder that's similar to PP, but there's no data as yet. It's called BE-86.

[jim8115]

The Zero 165 JHP measures .570

[SL1]

Jim,

I am assuming that you mean that the bullet length is 0.570", which is 0.010" longer than the Speer bullet.

The easiest thing to do to get the same powder space as the data is to simply seat the Zero bullets to a COL of 1.130", which is still within the SAAMI max COL value.

At the 1.120" COL, the difference in bullets looks like about a 1150 psi pressure increase, which is not a big deal, especially when the peak pressure only calculates to 26,000 psi. BUT, the velocity only calculates to 1062 fps from a 4" barrel, too. If I adjust the case volume to make your 1100 fps happen with a 0.570 bullet loaded to a 1.120" COL, I get a peak pressure of about 30,500 psi. Since your load feels "stout" that may not be far away from the truth. But, these are only calcs.

You did not mention your barrel length, which can make something like a 60 fps difference with this load if you increase from 4" to 5" in the calc.

So, basically, I don't see anything wrong with your 7.1 grain load. But, I expect that the Speer book max would be well over the SAAMI pressure limit (35,000 psi) with your gun and your bullet. (I got 40,685 psi for 7.9 grains using the same inputs as it took to make 1100 fps from a 4" barrel with a 165 grain bullet that is 0.570" long loaded to a COL of 1.120".)

If you are worried about the load, you can always work DOWN until it feels more like what you want. And, it is always a good idea to watch for indications that your gun is being banged-up by excessive slide forces.

SL1

[jim8115]

Not sure if the is helpful or not, but I measured the outside of the fired cases at their biggest point. They are all .425- .426

JIM

[noylj]

>noylj, I have to disagree a bit. Coefficients of friction with jacketed bullets of the same weight change with shank length, jacket material and of course OACL as mentioned in the previous post.

Wow, then you don't load Precision Delta or Montana Gold or Zero bullets because you don't have specific data for them that includes the bullet length and CoF? You only use the bullet manufacturer's data for their specific bullets and don't notice that Hornady, at least, groups all their bullet of a specific caliber and weight with the same data and, in fact, several times groups bullets of different OD and weight with the same data (say, 121-124gn jacketed bullets of 0.355-0.356")?
The reloader should start with a COL longer than in the manual's and work the load from the lowest starting load. With that, any jacketed lead bullet of a given weight can use the same data, otherwise there would ONLY be data for specific bullets.
You are theoretically right, but not really significant in real life, but I've only been doing this for about 40 years

[Clark]

The lowered friction of Lead bullets can be a big deal in other applications.

a) With 1 gr of powder, a Lead bullet will often come out the muzzle.

b) With a jacketed bullet in a break top Iver Johnson revolver, the latch will stretch from the force due to bullet friction.

[57K]

Montana Gold and Zero, but I don't simply guesstimate the powder charge from another jacketed bullet of the same weight unless that bullet is more of a worse case scenario, i.e. longer shank. I load both to +P in 9mm using data I develop myself.

40 years huh? You got me beat by a dozen, but that's also of little consequence where in some cases quality trumps quantity.

[ligonierbill]

jim8115, you're fine. The Speer 165 FMJ/7.0 PP load is noted as "lite" for practice in their manual. I get just over 1,000 fps from that out of a Glock 23. Another 0.1 grain is not going to do anything bad.

[Ruger45LC]

Load is fine, I run 8.0gr with a 165gr Gold Dot, does right at 1,155 fps from my G23, but a 165gr GD isn't a very long 165gr either. As stated, 165gr JHP's (like all other weights) do vary in bullet length. If you Zero 165gr is longer, it will raise pressures and velocity if seated to the same OAL vs a shorter bullet.

Is your chronograph accurate? If it's not level, in bad light or has even slightly bent rods it will throw velocity way off.