6.5mm-06 or stick with .270 Win - Page 3

Kachok · May 30, 2013, 08:41 PM

I did a pretty intensive study on all the 06 offspring, the 6.5-06 was a clear winner, a 123gr SST (.510BC) at nearly 3,300fps is untouchable at range until you start getting into the AI cases at which point the 280 AI could give it a run for it's money with 140gr bullets at 3,250fps. I actually bought a cheap NIB Savage 110 30-06 with every intention of building a 6.5-06 out of it, but I made the mistake of shooting it first, I cannot bring myself to tear down a rifle that is already shooting 1/2 MOA with hunting bullets, maybe the next Savage will be a rough shooter but that one is #6 for me and I have not found a dud yet.

taylorce1 · May 30, 2013, 11:08 PM

Quote:

I did a pretty intensive study on all the 06 offspring, the 6.5-06 was a clear winner, a 123gr SST (.510BC) at nearly 3,300fps is untouchable at range until you start getting into the AI cases at which point the 280 AI could give it a run for it's money with 140gr bullets at 3,250fps.

So lets get this straight the 6.5-06 is a clear winner because of one bullet, and one load? The problem with that reasoning is that it may or may not prove to be accurate or as fast out of any other rifle than the test rifle/barrel that the manufacturer used.

The truth is if the 6.5-06 was a clear winner at anything it would be winning LR competitions. The simple fact is that the 6.5-06 is a good cartridge, but it isn't superior by a long shot to any other 06 based cartridge. It sure wouldn't be my first choice for a long range cartridge by any means.

Kachok · May 31, 2013, 01:00 AM

I was talking about long range super flat shooting CXP2 class game load (what I would use it for), if you step up to 140 and 150gr respectively for long range paper punching or larger game there is not a bit of difference between them in speed but the 6.5 still holds a slight edge in BC, not enough to raise any big fuss over though, step them down to varmint weight bullets and the 6.5 holds a 120fps edge and again slightly better ballistics (100gr vs 110gr). It takes no stretch of the imagination to call that a clear win, it has a better ballistic profile throughout the entire range of bullet weight/SD slight in one class and noticeable in the other two. Only advantage the 270 hold at all is a a few grains of weight and an extra 0.013" caliber which is not noticeable or even remotely needed on CXP2 class.
6.5-06 is not common amongst the benchrest crowd because they already have the established 6.5-284 with a similar powder capacity and a 35 degree shoulder, many hunters prefer the 6.5-06 because it is easy to form commonly available brass. Practical vs ideal that debate will run forever. And let's be real NONE of the 06 offspring see much use in top level 1,000 yard F class 6.5mm or otherwise.
Edit: Oh and I did that comparison with published load data not some hack job on the internet posting loads running 12k over, and that was comparing them both in 24" barrels so there is no barrel bias there.

taylorce1 · May 31, 2013, 10:40 AM

Quote:

I was talking about long range super flat shooting CXP2 class game load (what I would use it for), if you step up to 140 and 150gr respectively for long range paper punching or larger game there is not a bit of difference between them in speed but the 6.5 still holds a slight edge in BC, not enough to raise any big fuss over though, step them down to varmint weight bullets and the 6.5 holds a 120fps edge and again slightly better ballistics (100gr vs 110gr). It takes no stretch of the imagination to call that a clear win, it has a better ballistic profile throughout the entire range of bullet weight/SD slight in one class and noticeable in the other two. Only advantage the 270 hold at all is a a few grains of weight and an extra 0.013" caliber which is not noticeable or even remotely needed on CXP2 class.

Again I've owned and shot rifles in the 6.5-06, .270, and .280 and there isn't a hill of beans difference between the three except on paper. To keep it simple how about we call "Long Range" any thing past "Maximum Point Blank Range" (MPBR), as this is the farthest you can shoot for a kill zone. Lets give the kill zone an 8" diameter since you wanted to stick with CXP2 game and this is pretty much standard for deer and pronghorn.

Best load I could find using your Hornady .510 BC SST bullet was 3275 fps at the muzzle. I have data that pushes a Hornady .494 BC SST bullet to 3020 fps out of a .270, and the 139 grain SST .486 BC out of a .280 at 3040 fps. You know what that nets the 6.5-06 in Point Blank range over the .270 and .280 on an 8" diameter target?

The extra .024 BC and 215 fps at the muzzle gains you 27 yards over the .270 and 26 yards on the .280 giving MPBR of the 6.5-06 at 263 yards. So your super flat shooting 6.5-06 can't get to 400 yards without practicing holdover techniques or turning dials. Once you start turning dials and practicing holdover all cartridges are pretty equal IMO, you loose advantage once you go past MPBR.

I can even cut the gap to where the 6.5-06 will be in the deficit if I just change out the bullets I used in the .270 and .280 allowing for a higher MV, and get to MPBR with more energy. However, I stayed with the same bullets to keep it apples to apples. The 123 A-Max or SST is a great bullet for the 6.5mm cartridge offering both speed and BC but it doesn't extend the MPBR by a lot.

For varmint weight bullets how about a .277 caliber 90 and 6.5mm 85 grain Sierra both at 3500+ fps. Now which cartridge holds the velocity edge at the muzzle?

Quote:

6.5-06 is not common amongst the benchrest crowd because they already have the established 6.5-284 with a similar powder capacity and a 35 degree shoulder, many hunters prefer the 6.5-06 because it is easy to form commonly available brass. Practical vs ideal that debate will run forever. And let's be real NONE of the 06 offspring see much use in top level 1,000 yard F class 6.5mm or otherwise.

The reason you don't see the 06 based cartridges much in LR shooting is because they are long actions. The usual train of thought is a short action provides a stiffer action and thusly it is more accurate. Not to mention the short fat powder columns are proving to offer more consistent velocities with less deviations from shot to shot and they don't need a long action for a short fat cartridge. Long actions in the target crowd is usually reserved for the magnum cartridges and not the 06 length ones.

jimbob86 · May 31, 2013, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Well bart. Should of. Could of. But it didn't happen!! 270-08. And I doubt it ever will.

But it DID!

.270 Savage.

Did not catch on.

taylorce1 · May 31, 2013, 11:43 AM

.270 Savage isn't a .270-08, the .270 Savage is based off of the .300 Savage case. The .270 Redding is basically a .270-08 but it was never commercialized.

jimbob86 · May 31, 2013, 11:53 AM

Quote:

the .270 Savage is based off of the .300 Savage case.

..... and the .308 WIN was developed from the 300 Savage: The idea was the same- 30-06 performance in a shorter case.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/300savage.htm

Kachok · May 31, 2013, 12:13 PM

Wrong again Taylorce1, long actions are quite common at long ranged matches many normally short action cartridges are even built on long actions to accommodate longer overall length so seating those long VLD bullets does not cut into your case capacity, this is especially common with the WSMs and the 6.5-284 in fact the standardized 6.5-284 Norma has a maximum length of 3.310" look it up. The advantage of the short cartridges in not in the action length as was previously though but in the short powder stack, seating the bullet out a bit does not hinder that one bit.
Granted the difference between a 6.5-06 and 270 Win really is splitting hairs inside 400 yards to call one vastly superior to the other is silly, but stretch things out to 500 and the 6.5 starts taking over, 151 more ft/lbs and 4.8" less drop, that is where things start becoming plainly apparent. I have no idea what you loaded in 6.5-06 or how far you shot it all I know is you give that thing some room to stretch it's legs with some good loads and it is shocking, my 270 WSM needs to be a full stroke to stay ahead of it!
Me personally I don't give two hoots about MPBR because that is a deceptive figure that would have you focusing on lighter, high velocity bullets with a lesser BC, it is much better to know your drop at range and only have to compensate for a lesser amount of windage IMHO start running an uber fast featherweight bullet against a reasonably fast high BC bullet in a crosswind and the better hunting bullet becomes apparent in a hurry. Wind is much harder to read across a canyon then you laser range finder so minimize the harder to read variable first. Just my $0.02

taylorce1 · May 31, 2013, 03:18 PM

Quote:

..... and the .308 WIN was developed from the 300 Savage: The idea was the same- 30-06 performance in a shorter case.

Yes it was, but it still doesn't change the fact that a .270 Savage isn't based on a .308 cartridge.

Quote:

Wrong again Taylorce1, long actions are quite common at long ranged matches many normally short action cartridges are even built on long actions to accommodate longer overall length so seating those long VLD bullets does not cut into your case capacity, this is especially common with the WSMs and the 6.5-284 in fact the standardized 6.5-284 Norma has a maximum length of 3.310" look it up. The advantage of the short cartridges in not in the action length as was previously though but in the short powder stack, seating the bullet out a bit does not hinder that one bit.

Let me get this straight, you're saying that you need a long action to run a 3.310" COAL cartridge for competition? I haven't been around competition rifles much as I don't compete but most of them (F class & F/TR) I've been around are short action single shot actions with barrels throated to run whatever bullet they want (including 6.5-284), so COAL isn't a problem as I see it. Most tactical steel shooters I've been around use a single stack ACIS or Wyatt's magazine with a COAL or 2.880" and run cartridges based off of the .308 more often than not.

Quote:

Granted the difference between a 6.5-06 and 270 Win really is splitting hairs inside 400 yards to call one vastly superior to the other is silly, but stretch things out to 500 and the 6.5 starts taking over, 151 more ft/lbs and 4.8" less drop, that is where things start becoming plainly apparent......

4.8" isn't even 1 MOA at 500 yards, and again counting inches is stupid. Inches mean nothing, it is all about MOA adjustments at long range.

6.5-06 123 grain SST @ 3275 MV,10 mph wind @ 90 degrees
600 yards -6.5 MOA elevation 3.4 MOA wind
800 yards -12.2 MOA elevation 4.8 MOA wind
1000 yards -19.4 MOA elevation 6.5 MOA wind

.270 Win 130 grain Berger Hunting VLD @ 3100 fps, 10 mph wind @ 90 degrees
600 yards -8 MOA elevation, 4.0 MOA wind
800 yards -14.9 MOA elevation 5.8 MOA wind
1000 yards -23.8 MOA elevation 8.0 MOA wind

Winner 6.5-06
600 yards +1.5 MOA elevation 0.6 MOA wind
800 yards +2.7 MOA elevation 1.0 MOA wind
1000 yard +4.4 MOA elevation 1.5 MOA wind

As far as energy went the 6.5-06 wins with a difference around 200 lbs more energy all the way to 1K.

So still the difference between the two isn't that great and most optics suitable for LR use have the ability to make the corrections for either one.

Quote:

Me personally I don't give two hoots about MPBR because that is a deceptive figure...... it is much better to know your drop at range and only have to compensate for a lesser amount of windage IMHO start running an uber fast featherweight bullet against a reasonably fast high BC bullet in a crosswind and the better hunting bullet becomes apparent in a hurry. Wind is much harder to read across a canyon then you laser range finder so minimize the harder to read variable first. Just my $0.02

MPBR is a practical application regardless of what weight bullet you use. It tells you how far you have to go before you start having to make corrections for elevation. Luckily the kill zone on deer is more oblong than circular, and even or else we would have to adjust for windage long before elevation.

Even then light weight bullets at ultra fast speeds do have advantages as well. Take the 110 TSX Barnes #4 has a published load with for the .270 Win at 3501 fps out of a 24" barrel, and the 110 TSX has a horrible BC. However at 500 yards the difference between your favored 6.5-06 and .270 isn't that great.

6.5-06 @ 500 yds -4.0 MOA elevation 2.7 MOA wind
.270 @ 500 yds -4.3 MOA elevation 4.3 MOA wind

You get the idea, 1 click elevation and 6 clicks wind on a 1/4 MOA adjustment scope.

At least I agree with you that I'd rather loose a little speed for a better BC bullet. However, if you can't read the wind right across a canyon for a shot the BC of a 6.5 isn't going to make any difference on how the shot turns out. A bad shot is a bad shot regardless of what bullet is used.

Kachok · May 31, 2013, 04:13 PM

No you don't NEED a long action for a 6.5-284 Norma, you can drop feed each round, but they are often used since the short actions are not designed for more then 2.860" normally.
Yes just under 1 MOA difference in drop at 500yards I never said anywhere that the difference is huge, but that certainly noticeable, and when you consider that you also have (slightly) less wind drift and less recoil it is hard to say that the 270 has any advantage other then a fraction of a mm larger caliber. This is an exercise in splitting hairs they are both fantastic rounds for medium/long range CXP2 class game and acceptable performers on CXP3. When I called the 6.5-06 a clear winner I has not talking about huge margins but rather the fact that it edged out a win in every bullet category.
The only rifle I think of in terms of MPBR is my woods rifle, I have never had the opportunity to use it beyond it's MPBR but I know it is 265 yards, anything inside that I don't have to make any adjustment on deer sized game, and yes MOA is a better measure for long range shooting but inches is easier for all the kiddies at home to understand

High BC bullet are a fantastic tool, I use them in several rifles, Nosler is coming out with the new Accubond LR which should breath new life into the 270 caliber, a bonded 150gr bullet with a .625BC that expands at speeds as low as 1,300fps that will be something to see, shame I cannot get any yet, that would be a deathray in my 270 WSM at 3,150fps!

May 31, 2013, 01:00 AM	#53
Kachok Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2012 Posts: 304	I was talking about long range super flat shooting CXP2 class game load (what I would use it for), if you step up to 140 and 150gr respectively for long range paper punching or larger game there is not a bit of difference between them in speed but the 6.5 still holds a slight edge in BC, not enough to raise any big fuss over though, step them down to varmint weight bullets and the 6.5 holds a 120fps edge and again slightly better ballistics (100gr vs 110gr). It takes no stretch of the imagination to call that a clear win, it has a better ballistic profile throughout the entire range of bullet weight/SD slight in one class and noticeable in the other two. Only advantage the 270 hold at all is a a few grains of weight and an extra 0.013" caliber which is not noticeable or even remotely needed on CXP2 class. 6.5-06 is not common amongst the benchrest crowd because they already have the established 6.5-284 with a similar powder capacity and a 35 degree shoulder, many hunters prefer the 6.5-06 because it is easy to form commonly available brass. Practical vs ideal that debate will run forever. And let's be real NONE of the 06 offspring see much use in top level 1,000 yard F class 6.5mm or otherwise. Edit: Oh and I did that comparison with published load data not some hack job on the internet posting loads running 12k over, and that was comparing them both in 24" barrels so there is no barrel bias there. Last edited by Kachok; May 31, 2013 at 01:34 AM.

May 31, 2013, 11:43 AM	#56
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,237	.270 Savage isn't a .270-08, the .270 Savage is based off of the .300 Savage case. The .270 Redding is basically a .270-08 but it was never commercialized. __________________ NRA Life Member

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May 30, 2013, 08:41 PM	#51
Kachok Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2012 Posts: 304	I did a pretty intensive study on all the 06 offspring, the 6.5-06 was a clear winner, a 123gr SST (.510BC) at nearly 3,300fps is untouchable at range until you start getting into the AI cases at which point the 280 AI could give it a run for it's money with 140gr bullets at 3,250fps. I actually bought a cheap NIB Savage 110 30-06 with every intention of building a 6.5-06 out of it, but I made the mistake of shooting it first, I cannot bring myself to tear down a rifle that is already shooting 1/2 MOA with hunting bullets, maybe the next Savage will be a rough shooter but that one is #6 for me and I have not found a dud yet.

May 31, 2013, 12:13 PM	#58
Kachok Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2012 Posts: 304	Wrong again Taylorce1, long actions are quite common at long ranged matches many normally short action cartridges are even built on long actions to accommodate longer overall length so seating those long VLD bullets does not cut into your case capacity, this is especially common with the WSMs and the 6.5-284 in fact the standardized 6.5-284 Norma has a maximum length of 3.310" look it up. The advantage of the short cartridges in not in the action length as was previously though but in the short powder stack, seating the bullet out a bit does not hinder that one bit. Granted the difference between a 6.5-06 and 270 Win really is splitting hairs inside 400 yards to call one vastly superior to the other is silly, but stretch things out to 500 and the 6.5 starts taking over, 151 more ft/lbs and 4.8" less drop, that is where things start becoming plainly apparent. I have no idea what you loaded in 6.5-06 or how far you shot it all I know is you give that thing some room to stretch it's legs with some good loads and it is shocking, my 270 WSM needs to be a full stroke to stay ahead of it! Me personally I don't give two hoots about MPBR because that is a deceptive figure that would have you focusing on lighter, high velocity bullets with a lesser BC, it is much better to know your drop at range and only have to compensate for a lesser amount of windage IMHO start running an uber fast featherweight bullet against a reasonably fast high BC bullet in a crosswind and the better hunting bullet becomes apparent in a hurry. Wind is much harder to read across a canyon then you laser range finder so minimize the harder to read variable first. Just my $0.02

May 31, 2013, 04:13 PM	#60
Kachok Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2012 Posts: 304	No you don't NEED a long action for a 6.5-284 Norma, you can drop feed each round, but they are often used since the short actions are not designed for more then 2.860" normally. Yes just under 1 MOA difference in drop at 500yards I never said anywhere that the difference is huge, but that certainly noticeable, and when you consider that you also have (slightly) less wind drift and less recoil it is hard to say that the 270 has any advantage other then a fraction of a mm larger caliber. This is an exercise in splitting hairs they are both fantastic rounds for medium/long range CXP2 class game and acceptable performers on CXP3. When I called the 6.5-06 a clear winner I has not talking about huge margins but rather the fact that it edged out a win in every bullet category. The only rifle I think of in terms of MPBR is my woods rifle, I have never had the opportunity to use it beyond it's MPBR but I know it is 265 yards, anything inside that I don't have to make any adjustment on deer sized game, and yes MOA is a better measure for long range shooting but inches is easier for all the kiddies at home to understand High BC bullet are a fantastic tool, I use them in several rifles, Nosler is coming out with the new Accubond LR which should breath new life into the 270 caliber, a bonded 150gr bullet with a .625BC that expands at speeds as low as 1,300fps that will be something to see, shame I cannot get any yet, that would be a deathray in my 270 WSM at 3,150fps!