+P brass

enstorm · November 22, 2011, 07:47 PM

How is this different than standard brass and do the differences affect handloading in any way?

Sport45 · November 22, 2011, 07:52 PM

Depends on the cartridge. From what I've seen, .38 special +P brass is the same as regular brass except for the headstamp. 9mm and .45acp, and .257 Roberts may be different. Those are the only "+p" cartridges that come to mind.

praetorian97 · November 22, 2011, 09:21 PM

I wouldn't use range pick up brass for homemade +p loads. You just can't trust the brass strength for high pressures.

DarthNul · November 22, 2011, 09:23 PM

The difference is that there's a little "+P" in the head stamp.

dunerjeff · November 22, 2011, 09:27 PM

Actually the web is a little thicker in the +P brass so it is stronger to take the higher pressures. If you load a +P brass you have to back of the charge because the inside volume is less.

enstorm · November 22, 2011, 09:30 PM

Since posting I looked more on the web, it appears generally no difference and headstamped for "sorting purposes," although Starline 45 +P per their website is thicker in base and has less capacity as a result, whereas their 9 is the same as non +P...

briandg · November 22, 2011, 11:26 PM

The main reason that +P is prominently marked on that ammunition is for identification purposes. In the legal climate of today, trust me, the manufacturers would paint them safety purple and have pop up flags on them if they could.

+P rounds can damage weapons not designed for them. If SAAMI decreed that no more +P could be made, I think the whole industry would heave a big sigh of relief.

dunerjeff · November 22, 2011, 11:37 PM

Take a +P case and split it,then do the same to normal cases.Most are a little thicker,I've personaly have seen some side by side like that.Whether all calibers are the same I don't know, but .003 to .005 thicker wall or web could make a big difference and not be easy too see without acually measuring.

nate45 · November 22, 2011, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praetorian97

I wouldn't use range pick up brass for homemade +p loads. You just can't trust the brass strength for high pressures.

All brass is 70% copper and 30% zinc. There isn't a different special brass they use for +P cases.

Anyway its largely irrelevant, because the STEEL of the chamber is what handles the pressure. Not the soft brass. If a case splits no big deal.

Sport45 · November 23, 2011, 01:02 AM

Look at the descriptions on the Starline Brass website. They state their 9mm and .38 special brass is the same whether or not it's +P. Sound like they do beef up the other +P offerings.

Quote:

Anyway its largely irrelevant, because the STEEL of the chamber is what handles the pressure. Not the soft brass.

This is mostly true. But the unsupported area around the base in some autoloaders does require some consideration.

WESHOOT2 · November 23, 2011, 08:24 AM

Some brands offer just a headstamp difference; some brands offer different cases.

Those different +P cases have reduced interior volume; load accordingly.

I do not assume each manufacturer's 'brass' is the exact same alloy; I asume they use different alloys. And treatment.

nate45 · November 23, 2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WESHOOT2

Those different +P cases have reduced interior volume; load accordingly.

So they have an interior volume that won't contain a +P powder charge?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WESHOOT2

I do not assume each manufacturer's 'brass' is the exact same alloy; I asume they use different alloys. And treatment.

Different alloys?

Cartridge brass that isn't 70/30? Wouldn't it cease to be cartridge brass if it were some other ratio?

Edit: After I wrote the above sentence, I checked to see if I was correct. It seems that as a general rule I am. However Cartridge Brass composition can vary to as much as 68.5/71.5% Copper with a MAXIMUM of .05% Lead and .05% Iron the remainder Zinc and still be called Cartridge brass. Source

I hardly think that variance would have some dramatic, noticeable affect on performance.

As regards tensile strength, I haven't bothered to check the various manufacturers. However, I feel safe saying their cartridge brass has a tensile strength suitable for cartridges.

drail · November 24, 2011, 12:11 AM

Keep in mind that whichever manufacturer designed and produced and labeled the brass in their mind it is only rated for +P pressures for one firing only. Subject it to higher than standard pressures repeatedly and there are no guarantees how close to the line you are playing. Also consider case support or lack thereof in some guns. If you really need more power from your gun get a larger caliber gun.

medalguy · November 24, 2011, 12:36 AM

Really now. The only difference in +P brass is the +p marked on the head during manufacture. The ammunition makers aren't going to run two different types of case forstandard loadings and higher pressure loadings. SAAMI makes no distinction and I've never heard of an ammo maker doing so either.

They don't care what the brass is marked with for subsequent loadings. Do a water test with standard and +p brass from the same maker and I believe you will find, as I did last year, that there's no difference. There MAY be a difference between two different manufacturers.

I did quite a bit of research last year when I started reloading .38 Special brass marked +P. I was told by a Remington rep at the SHOT show that there was no difference in the brass.

dunerjeff · November 24, 2011, 01:39 AM

http://starlinebrass.com read what the say about 45+P brass.Plus I HAVE seen regular brass and +p brass split in half and set side by side a you COULD see the difference in thickness.PERIOD,Whether all calibers are that way I don't know for sure but some ARE thicker.Believe what you want or don't want to it makes no difference.

nate45 · November 24, 2011, 02:22 AM

Look what Starline says about .38 Special +P and 9mm+P

Starline

2 grains less capacity on that .45 ACP +P is really not much difference.

Bottom line is, if fired brass is used for a +P load that is safe for the firearm its used in and the case splits, so what. What bad is going to happen? Lord knows how many cases I've split over the years. Thats how it happens when you reload, cases wear out. When they crack, split, separate, etc I throw them away.

Picture 6.png
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Sport45 · November 24, 2011, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Bottom line is, if fired brass is used for a +P load that is safe for the firearm its used in and the case splits, so what. What bad is going to happen?

Nothing bad happens when a case splits IMHO.

When an unsupported base blows out emptying the mag through its floorplate and sending splinters from the stocks into your shooting hand, it's a different matter.

dunerjeff · November 24, 2011, 10:12 AM

^^^ right,case don't "split" at the web,they explode.thats where those calibers that are thikened are beefef up.

WESHOOT2 · November 24, 2011, 10:16 AM

A reduced interior case volume does not preclude "+P" charges; it means a reduced interior volume.
Load accordingly.

Certain +P cases offer differences from their non-+P counterparts, including heat treatment or alloy.

A split case undetected before loading can allow insufficient neck tension, resulting in setback.

A case that splits upon firing may not permit chamber sealing, affecting pressure formation.

What I read here suggests to me that many are more easily satisfied with what they produce: "good enough".

nate45 · November 24, 2011, 11:38 AM

From left to right: Standard .45 ACP, +P .45 ACP, .45 Super, .460 Rowland

The .45 ACP and +P are Winchester. The web thickness of the .45 ACP is .067 the +P measures .059.

The .460 Rowland, by the way has a web thickness of .054.

Here is what we've learned so far.

1)Cartridge Brass is Cartridge Brass 70% Copper and 30% Zinc

2) Most +P cases are identical to standard except for the head stamp

3) Any slight difference is more of a marketing ploy than a real world advantage

4) Loading a safe for your pistol load in once fired brass is no danger

5) Some people will equivocate instead of admitting they were mistaken

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunerjeff

I HAVE seen regular brass and +p brass split in half and set side by side a you COULD see the difference in thickness.

6) dunerjeff must have extraordinary micrometer like vision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sport45

When an unsupported base blows out emptying the mag through its floorplate and sending splinters from the stocks into your shooting hand, it's a different matter.

I'd love to see some photos of .45 ACP pistols that have kaboomed from case failure. Other than Glock kabooms and since you reference wood that lets them out anyway.

csecmpral45.jpg

WESHOOT2 · November 24, 2011, 01:03 PM

We've learned some people spew absolutes before knowledge; we've learned some people load ammo that's good enough for themself; we've learned who not to stand near at the range.
Ay?

dunerjeff · November 24, 2011, 03:58 PM

I AM NOT Trying to BS anybody.I saw a picture that did say the thicker wall/web was 45+P compared to standard 45.If it wasn't real it isn't MY fault for being wrong.I was going by what the author wrote.I guess I'm going to have to spend the next day pouring over the internet to find that article just to prove someone might be mistaken about something so little.If I was wrong Sorryyyy!!!!
I did fid some Hornady +P rounds here and went out and shot one into my target backstop.I then cut it in half and a standard Winchester case.
The + P web is .048-.050 at the base,the standard is .032-.033 at the same point .Plus the radious is larger. That is signifigently beefed up !I believe what I personaly see not what someone else says. Take what you will out of this.

nate45 · November 24, 2011, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunerjeff

The + P web is .048-.050 at the base,the standard is .032-.033 at the same point

You're way off on those measurements. The thinnest .45 ACP web I could find was .052. How bout a link to where you got your data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WESHOOT2

We've learned some people spew absolutes before knowledge; we've learned some people load ammo that's good enough for themself; we've learned who not to stand near at the range.
Ay?

Supply some supporting links that back up your knowledge and I'll objectively look at.

Isn't that what you do? Load ammo thats good enough for yourself?

Snarky responses do not equal substantiation for ones claims.

If you can PROVE I'm wrong with evidence, then by all means do it. I'm here to learn as well as share knowledge. All I care about is the truth.

Sport45 · November 24, 2011, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nate45

I'd love to see some photos of .45 ACP pistols that have kaboomed from case failure.

Pictures found on interweb. Not my guns...

(Of course, I can't prove case failure was the cause of the one on the bottom, but that's what it would look like. The top pic was most likely an overcharge,)

dunerjeff · November 24, 2011, 08:50 PM

That pic was taken from my own camera in my own hand,the case was a Hornady TAP +P ammo the other was a Win case,10min before I posted it.In any way LOOK at the pic difference in the web area.Thats why I say I believe what I PERSONALY see,WITH MY OWN EYES,not some internet "expert".I really don't care if you believe it or not.In reality we are BOTH probably right,some probably are the same,others (Hornady in my case)are different. Just let it rest. THE END

November 22, 2011, 07:47 PM	#1
enstorm Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2005 Posts: 217	+P brass How is this different than standard brass and do the differences affect handloading in any way?

November 22, 2011, 07:52 PM	#2
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Depends on the cartridge. From what I've seen, .38 special +P brass is the same as regular brass except for the headstamp. 9mm and .45acp, and .257 Roberts may be different. Those are the only "+p" cartridges that come to mind. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

November 22, 2011, 09:23 PM	#4
DarthNul Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 288	The difference is that there's a little "+P" in the head stamp. __________________ The most feared gun control law proposal: Require buyers to register all gun purchases with their wives

November 23, 2011, 08:24 AM	#11
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Some brands offer just a headstamp difference; some brands offer different cases. Those different +P cases have reduced interior volume; load accordingly. I do not assume each manufacturer's 'brass' is the exact same alloy; I asume they use different alloys. And treatment. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

November 24, 2011, 01:39 AM	#15
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	http://starlinebrass.com read what the say about 45+P brass.Plus I HAVE seen regular brass and +p brass split in half and set side by side a you COULD see the difference in thickness.PERIOD,Whether all calibers are that way I don't know for sure but some ARE thicker.Believe what you want or don't want to it makes no difference. Last edited by dunerjeff; November 24, 2011 at 01:44 AM.

November 22, 2011, 09:21 PM	#3
praetorian97 Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2011 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 455	I wouldn't use range pick up brass for homemade +p loads. You just can't trust the brass strength for high pressures.

November 22, 2011, 09:27 PM	#5
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	Actually the web is a little thicker in the +P brass so it is stronger to take the higher pressures. If you load a +P brass you have to back of the charge because the inside volume is less.

November 22, 2011, 09:30 PM	#6
enstorm Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2005 Posts: 217	Since posting I looked more on the web, it appears generally no difference and headstamped for "sorting purposes," although Starline 45 +P per their website is thicker in base and has less capacity as a result, whereas their 9 is the same as non +P...

November 22, 2011, 11:26 PM	#7
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	The main reason that +P is prominently marked on that ammunition is for identification purposes. In the legal climate of today, trust me, the manufacturers would paint them safety purple and have pop up flags on them if they could. +P rounds can damage weapons not designed for them. If SAAMI decreed that no more +P could be made, I think the whole industry would heave a big sigh of relief.

November 22, 2011, 11:37 PM	#8
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	Take a +P case and split it,then do the same to normal cases.Most are a little thicker,I've personaly have seen some side by side like that.Whether all calibers are the same I don't know, but .003 to .005 thicker wall or web could make a big difference and not be easy too see without acually measuring.

November 24, 2011, 12:11 AM	#13
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	Keep in mind that whichever manufacturer designed and produced and labeled the brass in their mind it is only rated for +P pressures for one firing only. Subject it to higher than standard pressures repeatedly and there are no guarantees how close to the line you are playing. Also consider case support or lack thereof in some guns. If you really need more power from your gun get a larger caliber gun.

November 24, 2011, 12:36 AM	#14
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2009 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,033	Really now. The only difference in +P brass is the +p marked on the head during manufacture. The ammunition makers aren't going to run two different types of case forstandard loadings and higher pressure loadings. SAAMI makes no distinction and I've never heard of an ammo maker doing so either. They don't care what the brass is marked with for subsequent loadings. Do a water test with standard and +p brass from the same maker and I believe you will find, as I did last year, that there's no difference. There MAY be a difference between two different manufacturers. I did quite a bit of research last year when I started reloading .38 Special brass marked +P. I was told by a Remington rep at the SHOT show that there was no difference in the brass.

November 24, 2011, 02:22 AM	#16
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	Look what Starline says about .38 Special +P and 9mm+P Starline 2 grains less capacity on that .45 ACP +P is really not much difference. Bottom line is, if fired brass is used for a +P load that is safe for the firearm its used in and the case splits, so what. What bad is going to happen? Lord knows how many cases I've split over the years. Thats how it happens when you reload, cases wear out. When they crack, split, separate, etc I throw them away. Picture 6.png Picture 4.png Picture 5.png __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

November 24, 2011, 10:12 AM	#18
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	^^^ right,case don't "split" at the web,they explode.thats where those calibers that are thikened are beefef up.

November 24, 2011, 10:16 AM	#19
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	really right now A reduced interior case volume does not preclude "+P" charges; it means a reduced interior volume. Load accordingly. Certain +P cases offer differences from their non-+P counterparts, including heat treatment or alloy. A split case undetected before loading can allow insufficient neck tension, resulting in setback. A case that splits upon firing may not permit chamber sealing, affecting pressure formation. What I read here suggests to me that many are more easily satisfied with what they produce: "good enough". __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

November 24, 2011, 01:03 PM	#21
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	no; here's what we've learned We've learned some people spew absolutes before knowledge; we've learned some people load ammo that's good enough for themself; we've learned who not to stand near at the range. Ay? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

November 24, 2011, 08:50 PM	#25
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	That pic was taken from my own camera in my own hand,the case was a Hornady TAP +P ammo the other was a Win case,10min before I posted it.In any way LOOK at the pic difference in the web area.Thats why I say I believe what I PERSONALY see,WITH MY OWN EYES,not some internet "expert".I really don't care if you believe it or not.In reality we are BOTH probably right,some probably are the same,others (Hornady in my case)are different. Just let it rest. THE END