The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 25, 2011, 05:53 AM   #901
CowTowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2007
Location: Cowtown of course!
Posts: 1,747
Quote:
This has the potential to be as explosive as Watergate.
But only if the media and our elected officials keep the pressure on.
__________________
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor
“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......” President John F. Kennedy
CowTowner is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 09:40 AM   #902
Micahweeks
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: North Mississippi
Posts: 854
I'm not saying it would happen, but couldn't these people be prosecuted in 2013 if Obama loses the election?
Micahweeks is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 10:49 AM   #903
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
Expect the President to pardon everyone at the last minute.

They could be prosecuted right now if the media did their jobs instead of being cheerleaders.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 11:34 AM   #904
Dan F
Member
 
Join Date: July 13, 2011
Location: MD *gah*
Posts: 57
At this level of government, CYA is an art form, and anyone that has risen (sunk?) to it has to be a master.

The quality of Watergate that has always most impressed me is not that the burglary took place, and not that the cover-up took place, but that the scandal survived at all and managed to bring the administration down.

I am glad that F&F/Gunwalker seems to be gaining momentum, but aside from writing my representative (which I have, twice) urging his support for Issa's investigation, I'm just waiting to see whether it can bag anything, not what (who?).
Dan F is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 01:39 PM   #905
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,292
That's the thing, Dan, nobody who is responsible can be punished by anything than having the person who appointed them fail of re-election, and that doesn't ensure they will lose their jobs, since DoJ is at the core of this rotten apple express. I have to wonder if Congressmen and women who voted to defund them in punishment would suddenly find themselves on terrorist watch lists and such.
I have no faith left.
armoredman is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 01:43 PM   #906
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 3,112
Quote:
They could be prosecuted right now if the media did their jobs instead of being cheerleaders.
The problem is not the media. Fact is most congressmen could care less about Operation Fast and Furious. Project Gunrunner began in 2006. Most folks never heard of it until Operation Fast and Furious went viral. We have no idea what kinds of shenanigans took place previously. The fact that Project Gunrunner got underway on their watch speaks very loudly about motives of the previous administration.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/programs/project-gunrunner/
thallub is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 01:47 PM   #907
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
thallub, your premise is flawed. Under Gunrunner, the straw purchasers were arrested.

When it morphed into Fast and Furious, the straw purchasers were facilitated, the theory being that they would lead ATF agents to bigger fish. Only problem was, ATF didn't have the ability to track the weapons or straw purchasers...

But no, you can't impugn the previous administration over the program that started in 2006. The character of the operation changed after the changing of the guard.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 02:15 PM   #908
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,433
Quote:
Expect the President to pardon everyone at the last minute.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't there have to at least be an indictment before someone can be pardoned? If people are prosecuted for F&F after Obama is no longer in office, I wouldn't think there would be a thing he could do about it.
Webleymkv is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 02:29 PM   #909
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
Quote:
The fact that Project Gunrunner got underway on their watch speaks very loudly about motives of the previous administration.
It does no such thing. Let's say I open a clinic for teen alcohol abusers. After I move on, the new director, in a desperate move to raise awareness about teen alcoholism, starts throwing keg parties for the kids.

Do those keg parties speak loudly about my leadership?
maestro pistolero is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 03:53 PM   #910
Crosshair
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2004
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 5,333
Even if the president pardons those responsible, nothing says that Mexico can't issue warrants for their arrest given the very real damage it has done in Mexico.

That would put a big kink in any travel plans when first they have to make sure that the country they are visiting doesn't have an extradition treaty with Mexico. Doing a basic Google search reveals that most of the major countries do have such treaties, including Canada.
__________________
I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.
Crosshair is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 04:12 PM   #911
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,135
Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't there have to at least be an indictment before someone can be pardoned?
No. Remember that Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon as one of his first orders of business and Nixon was never indicted.
KyJim is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 06:25 PM   #912
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
Quote:
Under Gunrunner, the straw purchasers were arrested.
Only a few were actually arrested. Unfortunately, most received a lenient sentence, consisting largely of probation. It's supposed to be ten years in prison, but if that's not being enforced, the law has little deterrent value.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 12:29 PM   #913
Bartholomew Roberts
member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
CBS News is reporting that Melson is gone. He has been moved to a position of Senior Advisor on Forensic Science in the Office of Legal Programs (DoJ). The same report also says that Dennis Burke, the U.S. Attorney in Phoenix and a key Fast and Furious player has resigned effective immediately. His accomplice and AUSA, Emory Hurley is also being moved to a position in DOJ's Civil Division.

CBS reports that Todd Jones out of Minnesota will replace Melson.

All in all, some interesting developments today. Makes me wonder what is going on behind the scenes.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 12:54 PM   #914
Dead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2000
Location: AoW Land, USA
Posts: 1,968
This just brings them directly under the thumb of thr doj. Easier to control i would think. Until the people behind this end up with long stays in prison justice will not be served
__________________
Dead [Black Ops]
www.therallypoint.org
Dead is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 01:13 PM   #915
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
Quote:
All in all, some interesting developments today. Makes me wonder what is going on behind the scenes.
So at this point, who's still standing? Mark Chait?

Melson, McMahon, USAO prosecutor Emory Hurley, Newell, and Voth have all been transferred and/or promoted. Burke is the only one to resign.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 01:26 PM   #916
jimbob86
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
Quote:
Makes me wonder what is going on behind the scenes.
CYA ...... that's what.

Shredding, lots of shredding.
jimbob86 is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 01:37 PM   #917
Hardcase
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Sunny Southern Idaho
Posts: 1,909
I have serious doubts on just how effective Todd Jones will be as interim director. He's still cleaning up a big mess in Minnesota. His management style in this sort of thing is very hands on, so I wonder which job is going to suffer the most?

On the other hand, Kenneth Melson was a train wreck...or at least he was train wrecked. It would be difficult to do worse (and I'm not asking them to try!)
__________________
Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae
Hardcase is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 01:39 PM   #918
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,351
Quote:
the scandal survived at all and managed to bring the administration down.
Woodward and Bernstein from the Washington Post newspaper are the ones that made sure it did not die.

The Post is a generally liberal paper, and there was no love lost for Richard Nixon.

They pretty much hated him.
brickeyee is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 02:36 PM   #919
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,414
According to the article I just read on the "reassignments," praise was lavished on all the players who left or were reassigned. This one, in particular, caught my eye:

Quote:
Holder also praised Burke’s work, and said his office’s “quick response to the devastating shootings in January that claimed the lives of several people and critically injured Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was crucial in arresting and charging the alleged shooter.”
The BS can't get any more blatant than that. Burke's office had exactly ZERO to do with arresting the shooter. The facts are that the shooter never left the scene, because he was tackled, disarmed and restrained by a bunch of untrained civilians, Then the cops arrived to take custody. All Burke's office had to do was assign a rookie paralegal to fill out a charge sheet and file it.

But I'm sure Mr. Burke did a praiseworthy job of assigning the paralegal, and signing the charge sheet.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 03:12 PM   #920
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
So far the only thing most of this proves is if you want to get away with criminal activity you need to be in the ATF or the WH..
__________________
Molon Labe

Last edited by BGutzman; August 30, 2011 at 03:20 PM.
BGutzman is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 03:20 PM   #921
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/31/us...s.html?_r=1&hp

Low level positions.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 04:31 PM   #922
jimbob86
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
Quote:
Low level positions.

Hmmm..... that they still have retained any position astounds me ...... that they are not "assuming the position" irks me......

If Joe Sixpack conspired to sell and smuggle ak-47's to Mexico, Joe Sixpack would be trying to plea bargain his way out of Club Fed.

Lex Bovis, non Jovis.
jimbob86 is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 04:58 PM   #923
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,525
I was disappointed in NPR's coverage of the events today. NPR portrayed the problem with Fast and Furious as field agents that lacked proper supervision loosing track of some guns when the problem was that the field agents were told to let the guns go despite the field agents' objections. NPR also mentioned that the ATF lacked regulations it needed to effectively combat gun smuggling on the border when a big part of the problem is the DoJ refusing to prosecute straw buyers. It really sounded like NPR was reading a DoJ/ATF press release.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 05:14 PM   #924
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
This is why I want a government job.

With my job in the private sector - if I'm responsible for some collosal screwup that gets someone killed - I at least would get fired.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 05:20 PM   #925
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
Quote:
Mr. Holder indirectly referred to the distraction of the controversy in his statement thanking Mr. Burke, commending “his decision to place the interests of the U.S. Attorney’s office above all else.”
Why would the interests of the Attorney's office be jeopardized at all if there was nothing to the allegations?
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Reply

Tags
atf , fast and furious

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.77246 seconds with 9 queries