Are BP Revolvers REALLY not considered firearms by the law?

NateKirk · April 11, 2013, 11:04 AM

So the other day I went into bass pro and bought another pistol ('51 navy, I'll post pics later). Now I'm 18 so it is sort of weird that the law would let me buy a pistol but not let me buy a cartridge pistol. It seems to me that you can kill someone just as dead with a BP revolver as you can with a modern one; Thats pretty much all they used 150+ years ago right? BTY I'm in michigan. Anybody know why its like this?

TomADC · April 11, 2013, 11:39 AM

Here's a start.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html

mykeal · April 11, 2013, 02:30 PM

Yes, you can kill someone just as dead with a bp gun as with a smokeless cartridge gun; you just can't do it as fast or as often. And the vast majority of bangers couldn't muster the requisite number of functioning brain cells to learn how to feed and care for a bp gun.

deerslayer303 · April 11, 2013, 04:37 PM

Quote:

And the vast majority of bangers couldn't muster the requisite number of functioning brain cells to learn how to feed and care for a bp gun.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Thanks for the good laugh Mykeal!

That should be a signature line for sure.

the rifleer · April 11, 2013, 05:14 PM

this is a little OT, but never think that criminals are dumb. I assure you they are not. They may make poor life decisions, but they are not dumb.

woodnbow · April 11, 2013, 07:00 PM

Most criminals ARE dumb. At times they may seem clever because they've learned to game the system but generally most of them get caught doing stupid things over and over again. And really isn't "making poor life choices" just a politically correct way of saying dumb?

BTW, I'm sure my father never heard anyone utter that phrase... WWII vet, from Omaha beach through the Battle of the Bulge when he was wounded for the second and final time... Sergeant John Henry Slagter would kick your ass for "making poor life choices" in hopes that you'd learn to make "productive life choices..."

Captchee · April 11, 2013, 07:01 PM

Well it depends . Under the FFA ya they are not considered a regulated firearm . In fact some would say not a firearm at all . However under many state laws they are considered firearms even though they follow the guidelines of the FFA . Thus most states just require you to be 18 in order to purchase the gun .
BUT , this maybe changing . Not a lot of talk about it yet but I have herd some whispering that there maybe changes to that in all these new proposed gun laws .
Many of these make little sense and have not for some time . Case in point . Lets say you want your 870 engraved . Even if your tear the thing completely down , send it off with nothing other then the receiver with no parts in it . IE just a steel box . Do you know the person who you are having engrave it , must be an FFL holder .

Now here is another one for you . Lets say you buy a reproduction steel framed colt . 1851, 1860, 1858.…. Any of which you only have to be 18 to buy “in most states “

You then go out and buy the conversion cylinder and convert it to shot , 38 special , 38 long or short , 45 long colt , 45 ACP ……….
Did you have to go through a background check ?? Nope
Yet at the same time if you go out and try and buy a modern muzzleloader that’s capable of interchangeable barrel so as to shoot center fire , you will have to go through the back ground checks .
Its an odd , odd deal really

Newton24b · April 11, 2013, 10:32 PM

in the state of michigan, its legal to buy through the mail from any online ocmpany, and have it sent to your door by ups or fedex. no ffl dealer needed.

however you are required to "register" ANY handgun regardless of what it actually is. but you cant legally register a handgun unless your 21

NateKirk · April 12, 2013, 07:35 AM

"Yes, you can kill someone just as dead with a bp gun as with a smokeless cartridge gun; you just can't do it as fast or as often"

Yeah, I figured it had to do with the reload time. Though criminals could fix that by carrying multiple guns or just converting them. Our gun laws are really stupid

g.willikers · April 12, 2013, 09:35 AM

Some states only consider the bp revolver to be a firearm if it is used in the commission of a crime.

Poindexter · April 12, 2013, 10:18 AM

Be aware also that some states (I think maybe Kansas is one) do NOT recognize Bp firearms as "guns", but state law might still prohibit someone from carrying the "not gun" in a concealed manner.

mykeal · April 12, 2013, 10:58 AM

Quote:

in the state of michigan, ... you are required to "register" ANY handgun regardless of what it actually is.

That's not true. An LTP is not required for a black powder handgun in Michigan.

bedbugbilly · April 12, 2013, 02:30 PM

+1 to what mykeal states . . . .

In Michigan, you do not need a LTP to purchase a black powder handgun . . . the LTP is basically the "registration" of the handgun which is required and an attempt to screen the buyer in regards running background check and preventing those with felony convictions, domestic abuse issues, warrants, etc. from purchasing a handgun. At the time you pull the LTP, you must furnish your driver's license or state ID which is "run" prior to the permit being issued. Whether a person agrees with it or not, I view it as the state's attempt to do the same thing as when you fill out the FFL forms - and I know of several cases where the LTP process has kept convicted felons from purchasing a handgun . . . at least legally.

I have to deal with the sheriff's department in my county when I purchase a handgun in Michigan. In the past, I have discussed the registration of a BP handgun - necessary or not - and have been told "no". One of the reasons behind the LTP/registration is so that if the registered handgun is stolen, or if a handgun is recovered . . . it can be traced to the owner. In the case of it being stolen/recovered - it can be returned to the owner. (unless used in a crime and held for evidence). For the purposes of the possibility of a BP handgun ever being stolen/recovered - I believe that they can be registered if you want to - this may depend upon the authority issuing the LTP permits. In the past, I have registered antique handguns that are not required to be purchased when I was going to sell them through a FFL dealer on consignment just so there was a paper trail. How the FFL dealer handled them after I transferred them to him was up to his discretion. The sheriff's department never questioned why I wanted them registered as they view the registration as a means of locating the owner in the event of theft/recovery and they were very helpful in informing me what was and what wasn't required.

To the OP . . . nope, it doesn't make sense but then a lot of the laws don't. Laws are made by politicians . . . nobody ever said that they "make sense". As far as being 18 and being able to purchase a BP handgun but not a cartridge handgun . . . I know a whole lot of 18 (or under 21 years old) who aren't mature enough to possess a cartridge handgun . . . but then I also know a whole lot of folks who are older that aren't mature enough as well. At the same time, I find it a little mind boggling that we take 18 year olds into the service, teach them how to operate and fire everything from handguns to missiles . . . ask them to sacrifice their lives if necessary to protect our freedom and rights . . . and then after they are out of the service, the same ones who appropriate funds for the services feel it is their "duty" to restrict them as civilians who need to be "protected from themselves". It's easier to restrict rights than to address the real problems . . . mental health, parents being parents and teaching their kids responsibility, morals and the considerration of others.

Who knows how all of this will sift out when Washington gets done "working their magic". I have a feeling that at some point, BP will be included - after all - you have to keep such things out of the hands of the criminals and we all know they will abide by the law. If you want to take that last statement and fertilize your flowers with it . . . be my guest.

robhof · April 12, 2013, 08:46 PM

The crazy left is too focused on light weight, semiauto rifles and semiauto pistols currently, once they gain control of them, they'll come after anything that goes bang. It'll be great when they try, as you can cast your own bullets and make your own powder from readily available material, although they are trying to get lead designated as a dangerous substance.

Newton24b · April 12, 2013, 08:49 PM

im in michigan, heres the thing. according to STATE POLICE no permit is actually needed to buy one in a store, or online. however the state has a little law that says all handguns have to be registered.... so yes ya do after you get it.
but you cant legally get a purchase permit till your 21... kinda funnyish.

but they are fun as heck. more fun then most women anyway. and dont worry, about two months from now and ideally after you put the 2nd pound of lead through it, youll be thinking to yourself, "god awful mess,,,,, shoulda got a '73"

woodnbow · April 12, 2013, 09:51 PM

Agree with Robhof... Look at Britain, no cartridge firearms, restrictions on airguns for crying out loud, (anything over 12 ft lbs is considered a firearm...) even muzzleloaders heavily regulated.

Newton you've been hanging around with the wrong wimmens, or you're doing something drastically wrong... Agreed they are almost all certifiably nuts but lets not go overboard.

LED · April 12, 2013, 09:57 PM

This also has to do with the difficult concealment and limited repeatability of BP pistols. (I admit I don't shoot BP at all, and I have no brain cells that want me to)

The legal status of BP guns is another example of fine bureaucratic thinking. Ever wonder how your vote counts to elect the Commander in chief, yet you aren't mature enough to buy a can of beer?

Edit: By the way. Women can be as loud and smokey as your BP. Don't write em off yet.

mykeal · April 12, 2013, 10:34 PM

Quote:

the state has a little law that says all handguns have to be registered

Sorry, that's just not true.

brazosdave · April 14, 2013, 07:31 AM

LED, there are concealable b.p. revolvers. I carry one myself. As for limited repeatability, I don't need that many shots. Haven't had a squad size element of bad guys to worry about since my last soiree in Iraq. If you truly need a huge magazine full of rounds to make one or two people leave you be, you prolly don't shoot very well.

madcratebuilder · April 14, 2013, 08:12 AM

Quote:

And the vast majority of bangers couldn't muster the requisite number of functioning brain cells to learn how to feed and care for a bp gun.

Made my day!

LED · April 14, 2013, 09:22 AM

Brazosdave,
I only answered the OP question. You chose what works for you. Just curious, is that a vintage pocket gun. Thank you for your service.

BirchOrr · April 14, 2013, 09:53 AM

Michigan never has had a "registration". They did have a "safety inspection" but it has been done away with. They issued a "green card" with the inspection and you had to carry this card when you had a pistol on your person. This was for center-fire only, never for BP. All this accomplished, was an extra step for the law abiding. Back in the day if you wanted to hunt with a BP pistol, you were required to get the safety inspection and get the green card. This cost the police and the state money (it was free), so it's been done away with. (a few years ago).

The gun laws in MI change so fast, it's hard to keep up with. The best source I've found is Michigan Coalition Of Responsible Gun Owners.

http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/

I've had a CPL (concealed pistol license) for years. Mainly so I didn't have to open carry my BP pistol when hunting. I like a shoulder holster keeping my pistol warm, dry and out of the weather. Also this saves you from capping, un-capping your pistol every time you get in a vehicle.

Birch

brazosdave · April 14, 2013, 09:54 AM

no, actually, I carry several. The one on my hip today is an Armi San Marci 48 Wells Fargo pocket revolver in .31 cal, but I recently purchased the .44 51 Navy Snubby from Dixie Gun Works, the one with the thunderer grip. Small, and yet packs one hell of a punch! I know guys that pack sheriffs model 51's and 60's, or shortened Remmies, that mainly depends on the weather and your style of clothing. Still hopin we get open carry passed down here in Texas, then I could carry whatever I wanted, lol. I do make one concession though, I carry a .38 spl derringer in my pocket, but I am getting the stuff to start loading b.p. cartridges now, so I guess technically that would also be a b.p. gun. Sort of

NateKirk · April 14, 2013, 06:46 PM

Quote:

"As for limited repeatability, I don't need that many shots. Haven't had a squad size element of bad guys to worry about since my last soiree in Iraq. If you truly need a huge magazine full of rounds to make one or two people leave you be, you prolly don't shoot very well."

Never been in a gunfight but I think if you need to fire off more than six shots you're in more trouble than you can handle anyway

James K · April 14, 2013, 10:26 PM

In federal law and most state law, a percussion or flintlock handgun is considered an antique and can be purchased with no requirement for licensing, NICS check, or waiting period.

BUT, and it is a big BUT, under the criminal code of every state, such a gun is still a deadly weapon and it is legally the same as a Glock in laws regarding concealed carry, assault with a deadly weapon, or armed robbery.

So forget the idea that because it is a "non-gun" for purchase, it is OK to carry it without a license (where one is required). And if you (heaven forbid), knock off your obnoxious boss, it is still murder, even if done with a matchlock pistol.

Jim

April 11, 2013, 11:04 AM	#1
NateKirk Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2013 Location: Detroit Posts: 435	Are BP Revolvers REALLY not considered firearms by the law? So the other day I went into bass pro and bought another pistol ('51 navy, I'll post pics later). Now I'm 18 so it is sort of weird that the law would let me buy a pistol but not let me buy a cartridge pistol. It seems to me that you can kill someone just as dead with a BP revolver as you can with a modern one; Thats pretty much all they used 150+ years ago right? BTY I'm in michigan. Anybody know why its like this?

April 11, 2013, 11:39 AM	#2
TomADC Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: San Diego County Posts: 795	Here's a start. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html __________________ US Navy Retired,NRA Life Member,SASS member, Time magazine's Person of the Year 2006!

April 11, 2013, 05:14 PM	#5
the rifleer Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2008 Location: Sunny California Posts: 1,281	this is a little OT, but never think that criminals are dumb. I assure you they are not. They may make poor life decisions, but they are not dumb. __________________ There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.

April 12, 2013, 09:35 AM	#10
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Some states only consider the bp revolver to be a firearm if it is used in the commission of a crime. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

April 12, 2013, 02:30 PM	#13
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	+1 to what mykeal states . . . . In Michigan, you do not need a LTP to purchase a black powder handgun . . . the LTP is basically the "registration" of the handgun which is required and an attempt to screen the buyer in regards running background check and preventing those with felony convictions, domestic abuse issues, warrants, etc. from purchasing a handgun. At the time you pull the LTP, you must furnish your driver's license or state ID which is "run" prior to the permit being issued. Whether a person agrees with it or not, I view it as the state's attempt to do the same thing as when you fill out the FFL forms - and I know of several cases where the LTP process has kept convicted felons from purchasing a handgun . . . at least legally. I have to deal with the sheriff's department in my county when I purchase a handgun in Michigan. In the past, I have discussed the registration of a BP handgun - necessary or not - and have been told "no". One of the reasons behind the LTP/registration is so that if the registered handgun is stolen, or if a handgun is recovered . . . it can be traced to the owner. In the case of it being stolen/recovered - it can be returned to the owner. (unless used in a crime and held for evidence). For the purposes of the possibility of a BP handgun ever being stolen/recovered - I believe that they can be registered if you want to - this may depend upon the authority issuing the LTP permits. In the past, I have registered antique handguns that are not required to be purchased when I was going to sell them through a FFL dealer on consignment just so there was a paper trail. How the FFL dealer handled them after I transferred them to him was up to his discretion. The sheriff's department never questioned why I wanted them registered as they view the registration as a means of locating the owner in the event of theft/recovery and they were very helpful in informing me what was and what wasn't required. To the OP . . . nope, it doesn't make sense but then a lot of the laws don't. Laws are made by politicians . . . nobody ever said that they "make sense". As far as being 18 and being able to purchase a BP handgun but not a cartridge handgun . . . I know a whole lot of 18 (or under 21 years old) who aren't mature enough to possess a cartridge handgun . . . but then I also know a whole lot of folks who are older that aren't mature enough as well. At the same time, I find it a little mind boggling that we take 18 year olds into the service, teach them how to operate and fire everything from handguns to missiles . . . ask them to sacrifice their lives if necessary to protect our freedom and rights . . . and then after they are out of the service, the same ones who appropriate funds for the services feel it is their "duty" to restrict them as civilians who need to be "protected from themselves". It's easier to restrict rights than to address the real problems . . . mental health, parents being parents and teaching their kids responsibility, morals and the considerration of others. Who knows how all of this will sift out when Washington gets done "working their magic". I have a feeling that at some point, BP will be included - after all - you have to keep such things out of the hands of the criminals and we all know they will abide by the law. If you want to take that last statement and fertilize your flowers with it . . . be my guest. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

April 11, 2013, 02:30 PM	#3
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Yes, you can kill someone just as dead with a bp gun as with a smokeless cartridge gun; you just can't do it as fast or as often. And the vast majority of bangers couldn't muster the requisite number of functioning brain cells to learn how to feed and care for a bp gun.

April 11, 2013, 07:00 PM	#6
woodnbow Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2012 Posts: 190	Most criminals ARE dumb. At times they may seem clever because they've learned to game the system but generally most of them get caught doing stupid things over and over again. And really isn't "making poor life choices" just a politically correct way of saying dumb? BTW, I'm sure my father never heard anyone utter that phrase... WWII vet, from Omaha beach through the Battle of the Bulge when he was wounded for the second and final time... Sergeant John Henry Slagter would kick your ass for "making poor life choices" in hopes that you'd learn to make "productive life choices..."

April 11, 2013, 07:01 PM	#7
Captchee Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2013 Posts: 439	Well it depends . Under the FFA ya they are not considered a regulated firearm . In fact some would say not a firearm at all . However under many state laws they are considered firearms even though they follow the guidelines of the FFA . Thus most states just require you to be 18 in order to purchase the gun . BUT , this maybe changing . Not a lot of talk about it yet but I have herd some whispering that there maybe changes to that in all these new proposed gun laws . Many of these make little sense and have not for some time . Case in point . Lets say you want your 870 engraved . Even if your tear the thing completely down , send it off with nothing other then the receiver with no parts in it . IE just a steel box . Do you know the person who you are having engrave it , must be an FFL holder . Now here is another one for you . Lets say you buy a reproduction steel framed colt . 1851, 1860, 1858.…. Any of which you only have to be 18 to buy “in most states “ You then go out and buy the conversion cylinder and convert it to shot , 38 special , 38 long or short , 45 long colt , 45 ACP ………. Did you have to go through a background check ?? Nope Yet at the same time if you go out and try and buy a modern muzzleloader that’s capable of interchangeable barrel so as to shoot center fire , you will have to go through the back ground checks . Its an odd , odd deal really

April 11, 2013, 10:32 PM	#8
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	in the state of michigan, its legal to buy through the mail from any online ocmpany, and have it sent to your door by ups or fedex. no ffl dealer needed. however you are required to "register" ANY handgun regardless of what it actually is. but you cant legally register a handgun unless your 21

April 12, 2013, 07:35 AM	#9
NateKirk Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2013 Location: Detroit Posts: 435	"Yes, you can kill someone just as dead with a bp gun as with a smokeless cartridge gun; you just can't do it as fast or as often" Yeah, I figured it had to do with the reload time. Though criminals could fix that by carrying multiple guns or just converting them. Our gun laws are really stupid

April 12, 2013, 10:18 AM	#11
Poindexter Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2009 Location: Interior Alaska Posts: 154	Be aware also that some states (I think maybe Kansas is one) do NOT recognize Bp firearms as "guns", but state law might still prohibit someone from carrying the "not gun" in a concealed manner.

April 12, 2013, 08:46 PM	#14
robhof Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Posts: 712	robhof The crazy left is too focused on light weight, semiauto rifles and semiauto pistols currently, once they gain control of them, they'll come after anything that goes bang. It'll be great when they try, as you can cast your own bullets and make your own powder from readily available material, although they are trying to get lead designated as a dangerous substance.

April 12, 2013, 08:49 PM	#15
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	im in michigan, heres the thing. according to STATE POLICE no permit is actually needed to buy one in a store, or online. however the state has a little law that says all handguns have to be registered.... so yes ya do after you get it. but you cant legally get a purchase permit till your 21... kinda funnyish. but they are fun as heck. more fun then most women anyway. and dont worry, about two months from now and ideally after you put the 2nd pound of lead through it, youll be thinking to yourself, "god awful mess,,,,, shoulda got a '73"

April 12, 2013, 09:51 PM	#16
woodnbow Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2012 Posts: 190	Agree with Robhof... Look at Britain, no cartridge firearms, restrictions on airguns for crying out loud, (anything over 12 ft lbs is considered a firearm...) even muzzleloaders heavily regulated. Newton you've been hanging around with the wrong wimmens, or you're doing something drastically wrong... Agreed they are almost all certifiably nuts but lets not go overboard.

April 12, 2013, 09:57 PM	#17
LED Junior member Join Date: March 10, 2013 Location: The Heartland Posts: 174	This also has to do with the difficult concealment and limited repeatability of BP pistols. (I admit I don't shoot BP at all, and I have no brain cells that want me to) The legal status of BP guns is another example of fine bureaucratic thinking. Ever wonder how your vote counts to elect the Commander in chief, yet you aren't mature enough to buy a can of beer? Edit: By the way. Women can be as loud and smokey as your BP. Don't write em off yet. Last edited by LED; April 12, 2013 at 10:19 PM.

April 14, 2013, 07:31 AM	#19
brazosdave Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2012 Location: Crockett, Texas Posts: 363	LED, there are concealable b.p. revolvers. I carry one myself. As for limited repeatability, I don't need that many shots. Haven't had a squad size element of bad guys to worry about since my last soiree in Iraq. If you truly need a huge magazine full of rounds to make one or two people leave you be, you prolly don't shoot very well. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry, it's just my game"

April 14, 2013, 09:22 AM	#21
LED Junior member Join Date: March 10, 2013 Location: The Heartland Posts: 174	Brazosdave, I only answered the OP question. You chose what works for you. Just curious, is that a vintage pocket gun. Thank you for your service.

April 14, 2013, 09:53 AM	#22
BirchOrr Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Posts: 445	MI Registration Michigan never has had a "registration". They did have a "safety inspection" but it has been done away with. They issued a "green card" with the inspection and you had to carry this card when you had a pistol on your person. This was for center-fire only, never for BP. All this accomplished, was an extra step for the law abiding. Back in the day if you wanted to hunt with a BP pistol, you were required to get the safety inspection and get the green card. This cost the police and the state money (it was free), so it's been done away with. (a few years ago). The gun laws in MI change so fast, it's hard to keep up with. The best source I've found is Michigan Coalition Of Responsible Gun Owners. http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/ I've had a CPL (concealed pistol license) for years. Mainly so I didn't have to open carry my BP pistol when hunting. I like a shoulder holster keeping my pistol warm, dry and out of the weather. Also this saves you from capping, un-capping your pistol every time you get in a vehicle. Birch __________________ Black Powder: Not because it is easy, but because it is hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win...

April 14, 2013, 09:54 AM	#23
brazosdave Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2012 Location: Crockett, Texas Posts: 363	no, actually, I carry several. The one on my hip today is an Armi San Marci 48 Wells Fargo pocket revolver in .31 cal, but I recently purchased the .44 51 Navy Snubby from Dixie Gun Works, the one with the thunderer grip. Small, and yet packs one hell of a punch! I know guys that pack sheriffs model 51's and 60's, or shortened Remmies, that mainly depends on the weather and your style of clothing. Still hopin we get open carry passed down here in Texas, then I could carry whatever I wanted, lol. I do make one concession though, I carry a .38 spl derringer in my pocket, but I am getting the stuff to start loading b.p. cartridges now, so I guess technically that would also be a b.p. gun. Sort of __________________ "I'm your huckleberry, it's just my game"

April 14, 2013, 10:26 PM	#25
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	In federal law and most state law, a percussion or flintlock handgun is considered an antique and can be purchased with no requirement for licensing, NICS check, or waiting period. BUT, and it is a big BUT, under the criminal code of every state, such a gun is still a deadly weapon and it is legally the same as a Glock in laws regarding concealed carry, assault with a deadly weapon, or armed robbery. So forget the idea that because it is a "non-gun" for purchase, it is OK to carry it without a license (where one is required). And if you (heaven forbid), knock off your obnoxious boss, it is still murder, even if done with a matchlock pistol. Jim