Winchester Model 12 (forgive the old question)

golfnutrlv · August 1, 2009, 01:28 PM

Hi everyone, I have a question that has probably been asked before, so please forgive.

I have a Winchester Model 12 20 Gauge. The gun is very old, belonged to my grandfather. It has been maintained superbly, and is in firing shape. Year of manufacture is 1913. (Same year gramps was born ironically enough).

I know that there are certain shot shell lengths that older 12's will not like.

Will a basic, economy 2 3/4 in target load be appropriate for my M12?

This is just for recreation, no trap, no hunting.

Thanks all!!

Couzin · August 1, 2009, 01:45 PM

I believe the early Model 12 20ga was a 2-1/2" shell - you may want to be absolutely sure before testing some high brass 2-3/4" in the gun. Remember, the chamber length is the uncrimped (fired) shell length, not the charged and crimped round length.

Couzin · August 1, 2009, 01:48 PM

This from the Michigan Sportsman Forum:

Gideon: "The Model 12 20ga. was the first model 12. Introduced in 1912, and from 1912-1927 it was chambered for the 2 1/2" shells, the Model 12 16ga. was introduced in 1914 and was produced from 1914-1927 chambered for the 2 9/16" shell. Serial numbers 464,565-and earlier will be chambered for now non standard 2 1/2" and 2 9/16" shells (since
1927, and with serial #s higher than 464,565, use 2 3/4' shells). Early model
97s, 16 ga will also use 2 9/16. Model 93 12 gauges will use 2 5/8" shells.

As more Model 12, 16ga. seem to be available today, in the 200 to 500 range.
I would give serious thought to making the one you have a wall hanger.

Origional guage can be determined by removing the butt stock, and checking the guage markings on the stock screw boss."

Hawg · August 1, 2009, 01:58 PM

If it actually was made in 1913 it does have a 2 1/2 inch chamber because as stated 2 3/4 shells with star crimps didn't come about until the 20's. However you can have it rechambered for 2 3/4 shells.

Couzin · August 1, 2009, 02:11 PM

If he re-chambers - will it cycle the 2-3/4" OK or does the port have to be enlarged?

golfnutrlv · August 1, 2009, 03:09 PM

Alright guys, thanks for the info!!

I have no plans to rechamber the gun. How available is 20 gauge 2.5 inch? Am I going to have trouble finding it, or is it reasonably common?

oneounceload · August 1, 2009, 04:07 PM

[QUOTE] If it actually was made in 1913 it does have a 2 1/2 inch chamber because as stated 2 3/4 shells with star crimps didn't come about until the 20's. However you can have it rechambered for 2 3/4 shells./QUOTE]

not without someone willing to insure that his work will withstand a possible lawsuit....in the "old" country, it would require a reproofing......

Hawg · August 1, 2009, 04:09 PM

They're not common and they're not cheap. It would be cheaper to cut down 2 3/4 yourself and roll crimp them. The forcing cone in that gun was designed for roll crimp and not star crimp like used today. It shouldn't be a big expense to have the chamber reamed out to 2 3/4 and then the forcing cone will be correct for modern shells.

Couzin, the ejector port will be fine as is if he decides to go that route.

IMHO that's too good of a gun to just let sit and go to waste because technology left it behind. I'd bring it up to speed and use it. My favorite gun is my dads old model 12 12 gauge he bought new in 53. Got the new guns beat all to hell.

Hawg · August 1, 2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

not without someone willing to insure that his work will withstand a possible lawsuit....in the "old" country, it would require a reproofing......

It's no big deal to lengthen a shotgun chamber made with with good steel. Any gunsmith that works on shotguns will do it. This isn't the old country. It's done all the time. You can even buy the reamers from Brownells and do it yourself.

johnbt · August 2, 2009, 09:49 AM

http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/pro...sp?prod=458128

$83 for 10 boxes.

20ga, 2.5in, Shot Size 6
by Estate Cartridge

golfnutrlv · August 2, 2009, 05:21 PM

JohnBT,

Wow, thats just what i'm looking for!!

Thanks for the link. Order tomorrow, and last me for quite a while.

Thanks a Million!!

langenc · August 2, 2009, 05:38 PM

Never heard of a 2 1/2" chamber. Do recall 2 9/16 when I first started hunting. I know there are many posters more knowledgeable than I.

oneounceload · August 2, 2009, 06:12 PM

RST and Polywad also carry 2-1/2" and 2" ammunition in a variety of gauges and shot sizes

golfnutrlv · August 2, 2009, 06:39 PM

Ok all, one more question about the lengths.

The length of the shell (2.5 or 2,75 etc) is the unfired length? I'm a little confused here about what length is what. If my chamber is 2.5 inches, do I need a 2.5 inch shell or something else?

Thanks for helping the inexperienced shotgun guy!!

johnbt · August 3, 2009, 09:43 AM

The number on the box is the opened length. IOW, a 2.75" shell isn't that long until it is fired.

That's why people get in trouble; they think they're okay because a 3" 12 ga. shell, for instance, will fit in a 2.75" chamber. But it doesn't leave any room for the crimp to fully open so there's a pressure spike. It might do some damage and it might not - until the next time.

And shop around on that ammo I linked to, I just posted the first thing I saw, not the necessarily the cheapest.

John

golfnutrlv · August 3, 2009, 10:52 AM

So a matching shell length and chamber length is ideal? Or should the shell be shorter? For example, the old shells I have for this shotgun (which I don't trust to be safe) are 2.25 inch shells. But, as I understand a 2.5 inch shell like the one you linked to will work. Am I correct?

Thanks!

johnbt · August 4, 2009, 02:55 PM

The chamber in that old 20 ga. should be what's called a 2.5" chamber. That's the length of the empty shell after it's fired.

The shells you have are 2.25" and should be about 2.5" after you fire them.

I think everything is fine.

I buy and shoot old 28 ga. ammo when I can find it.

John

Couzin · August 4, 2009, 03:49 PM

Yes - fired (open) length is the size of the cartridge/round (2-1/2"; 2-3/4"; 3"; 3-1/2" etc). Should match what is marked on your barrel or somewhere (but is not always present). The exception of course is that you can shoot shorter (say 2-3/4") out of a 3" (even 3-1/2") chamber -- but on some semi-autos, you might run into ejection issues. The again, there are some shooters that swear you will lose energy firing shorter shells out of longer chambers - eh, maybe... I find 2-3/4" does just fine for me out of my 3" Browning bird gun.

August 1, 2009, 01:28 PM	#1
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Winchester Model 12 (forgive the old question) Hi everyone, I have a question that has probably been asked before, so please forgive. I have a Winchester Model 12 20 Gauge. The gun is very old, belonged to my grandfather. It has been maintained superbly, and is in firing shape. Year of manufacture is 1913. (Same year gramps was born ironically enough). I know that there are certain shot shell lengths that older 12's will not like. Will a basic, economy 2 3/4 in target load be appropriate for my M12? This is just for recreation, no trap, no hunting. Thanks all!! __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

August 1, 2009, 03:09 PM	#6
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Alright guys, thanks for the info!! I have no plans to rechamber the gun. How available is 20 gauge 2.5 inch? Am I going to have trouble finding it, or is it reasonably common? __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

August 2, 2009, 05:21 PM	#11
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	JohnBT, Wow, thats just what i'm looking for!! Thanks for the link. Order tomorrow, and last me for quite a while. Thanks a Million!! __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

August 2, 2009, 06:39 PM	#14
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Ok all, one more question about the lengths. The length of the shell (2.5 or 2,75 etc) is the unfired length? I'm a little confused here about what length is what. If my chamber is 2.5 inches, do I need a 2.5 inch shell or something else? Thanks for helping the inexperienced shotgun guy!! __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

August 3, 2009, 10:52 AM	#16
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	So a matching shell length and chamber length is ideal? Or should the shell be shorter? For example, the old shells I have for this shotgun (which I don't trust to be safe) are 2.25 inch shells. But, as I understand a 2.5 inch shell like the one you linked to will work. Am I correct? Thanks! __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

August 1, 2009, 01:45 PM	#2
Couzin Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2006 Location: Terrell, Texas Posts: 240	I believe the early Model 12 20ga was a 2-1/2" shell - you may want to be absolutely sure before testing some high brass 2-3/4" in the gun. Remember, the chamber length is the uncrimped (fired) shell length, not the charged and crimped round length.

August 1, 2009, 01:48 PM	#3
Couzin Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2006 Location: Terrell, Texas Posts: 240	This from the Michigan Sportsman Forum: Gideon: "The Model 12 20ga. was the first model 12. Introduced in 1912, and from 1912-1927 it was chambered for the 2 1/2" shells, the Model 12 16ga. was introduced in 1914 and was produced from 1914-1927 chambered for the 2 9/16" shell. Serial numbers 464,565-and earlier will be chambered for now non standard 2 1/2" and 2 9/16" shells (since 1927, and with serial #s higher than 464,565, use 2 3/4' shells). Early model 97s, 16 ga will also use 2 9/16. Model 93 12 gauges will use 2 5/8" shells. As more Model 12, 16ga. seem to be available today, in the 200 to 500 range. I would give serious thought to making the one you have a wall hanger. Origional guage can be determined by removing the butt stock, and checking the guage markings on the stock screw boss."

August 1, 2009, 01:58 PM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	If it actually was made in 1913 it does have a 2 1/2 inch chamber because as stated 2 3/4 shells with star crimps didn't come about until the 20's. However you can have it rechambered for 2 3/4 shells.

August 1, 2009, 02:11 PM	#5
Couzin Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2006 Location: Terrell, Texas Posts: 240	If he re-chambers - will it cycle the 2-3/4" OK or does the port have to be enlarged?

August 1, 2009, 04:07 PM	#7
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	[QUOTE] If it actually was made in 1913 it does have a 2 1/2 inch chamber because as stated 2 3/4 shells with star crimps didn't come about until the 20's. However you can have it rechambered for 2 3/4 shells./QUOTE] not without someone willing to insure that his work will withstand a possible lawsuit....in the "old" country, it would require a reproofing......

August 1, 2009, 04:09 PM	#8
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	They're not common and they're not cheap. It would be cheaper to cut down 2 3/4 yourself and roll crimp them. The forcing cone in that gun was designed for roll crimp and not star crimp like used today. It shouldn't be a big expense to have the chamber reamed out to 2 3/4 and then the forcing cone will be correct for modern shells. Couzin, the ejector port will be fine as is if he decides to go that route. IMHO that's too good of a gun to just let sit and go to waste because technology left it behind. I'd bring it up to speed and use it. My favorite gun is my dads old model 12 12 gauge he bought new in 53. Got the new guns beat all to hell.

August 2, 2009, 09:49 AM	#10
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/pro...sp?prod=458128 $83 for 10 boxes. 20ga, 2.5in, Shot Size 6 by Estate Cartridge

August 2, 2009, 05:38 PM	#12
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	Never heard of a 2 1/2" chamber. Do recall 2 9/16 when I first started hunting. I know there are many posters more knowledgeable than I.

August 2, 2009, 06:12 PM	#13
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	RST and Polywad also carry 2-1/2" and 2" ammunition in a variety of gauges and shot sizes

August 3, 2009, 09:43 AM	#15
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	The number on the box is the opened length. IOW, a 2.75" shell isn't that long until it is fired. That's why people get in trouble; they think they're okay because a 3" 12 ga. shell, for instance, will fit in a 2.75" chamber. But it doesn't leave any room for the crimp to fully open so there's a pressure spike. It might do some damage and it might not - until the next time. And shop around on that ammo I linked to, I just posted the first thing I saw, not the necessarily the cheapest. John

August 4, 2009, 02:55 PM	#17
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	The chamber in that old 20 ga. should be what's called a 2.5" chamber. That's the length of the empty shell after it's fired. The shells you have are 2.25" and should be about 2.5" after you fire them. I think everything is fine. I buy and shoot old 28 ga. ammo when I can find it. John

August 4, 2009, 03:49 PM	#18
Couzin Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2006 Location: Terrell, Texas Posts: 240	Yes - fired (open) length is the size of the cartridge/round (2-1/2"; 2-3/4"; 3"; 3-1/2" etc). Should match what is marked on your barrel or somewhere (but is not always present). The exception of course is that you can shoot shorter (say 2-3/4") out of a 3" (even 3-1/2") chamber -- but on some semi-autos, you might run into ejection issues. The again, there are some shooters that swear you will lose energy firing shorter shells out of longer chambers - eh, maybe... I find 2-3/4" does just fine for me out of my 3" Browning bird gun.