Hopkin & Allen Help!!

wick73 · May 28, 2013, 11:47 PM

I have a 1886 Hopkins & Allen .32 short. When the trigger is pulled it functions, but needs a little help to fully return forward. I'm not familiar with pieces this old. But I believe I am missing an internal part. Possible a cast off cam spring or rebound. I have not been able to track down a schematic on this pistol. Numrich does not shown the schematic of the 1886 I have? Can anyone offer any help. Even a picture of one so I could manufacture the part my self? Help a brother out.

:

Magnum Wheel Man · May 29, 2013, 07:05 AM

I have many of these guns, & a couple books ( I'd have to dig up ) my local gun smith buddy refuses to work on these guns, as the parts were all iron ( not steel ), they are small, & hard to work on... if the gun functions, lube it well, if it doesn't function, spray it down good with gun scrubber, & re-lube it... if it still doesn't work, most people will just leave them in that condition... the guns are not worth much, & you can easily put more into fixing one problem, than they are worth, only to find the next problem shows up, after little or no firing of the gun...

I'd suspect one of the springs is either missing ( broken ) or worn out... if you are determined to work on it, bug me a little, & I'll see if I can round up one of my books & scan the page you'd need... if you still plan to work on it, & or the gun has sentimental value, you could probably buy a 2nd gun off of Gun Broker for a reasonable price to keep as a parts gun

this is most of my 32 collection... do you see one similar ???

( top 4 & bottom gun are 22's... the others are all 32's )

Rifleman1776 · May 29, 2013, 07:59 AM

Might be a manual here:
http://stevespages.com/page7b.htm

wick73 · May 29, 2013, 08:33 AM

It looks like the fourth one down on the right. But they all look about the same I will post a picture later this evening when I get home from the junk yard. I have already done alot of work and have to get it total 100% functioning or i'll never get over it. Help!

Magnum Wheel Man · May 29, 2013, 08:43 AM

4th one down on the on right is a Hopkins & Allen if I remember correctly...

wick73 · May 29, 2013, 08:45 PM

Here she is the trigger does not fully return? I have to push upward on the trigger to get a full return? I have inspected the internals and see no missing or defective spring. I really want it fully functional it has been in my family for longer than anyone can remember. But I don't have a schematic to reference

http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...2&d=1369878242

wick73 · May 29, 2013, 08:51 PM

Well there's the pics. oyu said " bug me a little, & I'll see if I can round up one of my books & scan the page you'd need... if you still plan to work on it",
I got the the pics. up finally.

James K · May 29, 2013, 10:44 PM

The buggered up trigger and trigger guard pins tell me someone has already been in there messing around. That is common with old guns and not a good sign. Whether the gun can be fixed may depend on what that someone (or several someones) already did to it.

Jim

Magnum Wheel Man · May 30, 2013, 05:46 AM

I'll make myself a note, to bring the book in to work on Monday, & get an assembly diagram scanned in so I can post it

wick73 · May 30, 2013, 08:13 PM

The pins were center punch to expand them so they would stay in place. This was done a long time ago, before it was handed down to me. I wish I could replace them. I'm sure they will punch out. I have only worked on firearms from the 1930"s to present. If I could find new replacement pins that would be great, any ideal where to get such items? thanks again for you time and efforts to help me out. Sincerely, Jason

Magnum Wheel Man · May 31, 2013, 08:02 AM

looked a bit for my H&A book last night ( I have 2 ) but only found the safety police book... it'll require more digging...

BTW... I'm not positive, without looking, but I don't think those are original H&A grip panels...

BTW#2... don't know if you know or not, but the blued guns are more scarce than the nickel guns, & so worth a bit more...

BTW#3... pins shouldn't be a huge problem... I'd think you could find some drill rod in the right diameter & make new pins

James K · May 31, 2013, 01:26 PM

Yes, the "checkerboard" was a Hopkins & Allen trademark. One source says those grips were used on guns made for Merwin & Hulbert, who were H&A agents.

Pins are easily made from drill rod or even nails if there is no great strain on them. If working on those guns, it is a good idea to buy cup tip punches from Brownells to keep from battering up the pins. While the pins are single diameter (not tapered), they were usually driven in right to left, and should be removed left to right.

Sometimes the holes are so badly worn that oversize pins are needed, and that almost always means enlarging the both the holes in the frame and the holes in any other part(s) the pin goes through.

Jim

wick73 · May 31, 2013, 07:40 PM

The grips are original to the gun and it was blued originally and has been re-blued. Some one told me it's a ladies pistol due to the small frame and grip size. What's your opinions? She looks good some pitting, but I like it that way. Looks old school like it should. You guys real cool and thanks for helping me out.

James K · May 31, 2013, 10:31 PM

Almost all guns of that general type have small grips. They were intended as pocket revolvers, and usually were not carried in holsters. In those days, there were few laws against carrying concealed weapons, so it was common for a man to drop a revolver into his coat pocket or a woman to carry a gun in her "reticule". (Some "ladies" carried guns in their garters, I have heard, though I have no personal knowledge.)

Jim

wick73 · June 1, 2013, 07:58 AM

More good info. Keep it coming. Hope to get an internal schematic so I know what's going on in there.

wick73 · June 3, 2013, 08:30 PM

Does anyone have the schematic for my Hopkins Allen .32 ?

Magnum Wheel Man · June 4, 2013, 06:20 AM

sorry... I still have the post it note where I empty my pockets at home... & I've been hugely busy... if it's raining when I get home today ( which it looks like it will be ) I 'll spend a little time trying to find my H&A non safety police book...

wick73 · June 4, 2013, 07:46 AM

That's cool I have had a crazy last week and today I have a to leave for Indiana on a two day business trip so I'll check again on thursday you can email them to me if you want Jason at [email protected]

Magnum Wheel Man · June 5, 2013, 01:16 PM

WICK... went digging last night ( low & behold, the book was in the study, on the book shelf, where it was supposed to be

) ( wish I started looking there

anyway... not a very good image in my book... my safety police book had an exploded view... for your model, sorry, but the best I could do was patent drawings... e-mailing now...

g.willikers · June 5, 2013, 05:04 PM

There should be a leaf type spring, or maybe V shaped one, that puts upward pressure on the front of the trigger.
Remove the trigger guard to access, probably.
Maybe it's missing.
One could be made from a springy flat piece, like a feeler gauge.

wick73 · June 7, 2013, 07:56 PM

I think you are 100% correct on that. Mike sent me a schematic and it show a piece that mine does not have was going to scan it in and show you all but the scanner is given me trouble. I will get it up as soon as I can get the printer/ scanner to connect

wick73 · June 7, 2013, 08:03 PM

Hopkins and Allen, missing piece.jpg

James K · June 7, 2013, 08:36 PM

OK, the trigger return spring is in the front of the trigger. One end is trapped between the frame and the trigger guard with a hole for that screw to go through. One of those springs can be easily made or an Iver Johnson spring from Wolff can be modified.

The part you circled, that looks something like Cinderella's slipper, is the single action sear. When the hammer is pulled part way back, it engages with the safety notch; when the hammer is back all the way, it engages with a notch you can barely see at the bottom rear of the hammer. The other piece that extends down into the grip is the spring for the SA sear. If it is missing or broken the SA sear won't work and the gun will be DA only.

The SA sear is disengaged by the trigger contacting the "toe" of the "slipper", pushng it up and tilting the rear down to disengage from the hammer.

The spring can probably be made fairly easily; the SA sear itself would be very tricky to make and probably cost more than the gun is worth.

Jim

wick73 · June 7, 2013, 11:36 PM

You:
(OK, the trigger return spring is in the front of the trigger. One end is trapped between the frame and the trigger guard with a hole for that screw to go through. One of those springs can be easily made or an Iver Johnson spring
from Wolff can be modified.)

Me:
My pistol has no such part in the trigger area only pins and the only screws are going though the hammer assembly and on though the barrel pivot. The trigger housing is different and the trigger group is a different configuration. I can get a better pic. of the trigger area and post it.

You:
The part you circled, that looks something like Cinderella's slipper, is the single action sear. When the hammer is pulled part way back, it engages with the safety notch; when the hammer is back all the way, it engages with a notch you can barely see at the bottom rear of the hammer. (which is there) The other piece that extends down into the grip is the spring for the SA sear. If it is missing or broken the SA sear won't work and the gun will be DA only.
The spring can probably be made fairly easily.

Me: If i could get the Spring for the Sa sear I could repair the frame I'm very sure.

I wanted to copy and paste so I could refer to your reply. I know I am missing the spring for the SA sear. It is keeping the full return action flawed. Like is stated in the post original It works fine if I help the trigger forward just with a little. Can you hook up with someone that might have the Sa sear spring? I have a full shop at my disposal so I can modify or repair anything as long as I have something to go by.

James K · June 8, 2013, 07:17 PM

Sorry, I can see now that the gun in the diagram (Post #22) is not the same as the gun in the original photo. Like many companies, H&A made various models, some of which were quite different from each other. My comments were based on the #22 revolver; the original one may be quite different internally.

Jim

May 28, 2013, 11:47 PM	#1
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	Hopkin & Allen Help!! I have a 1886 Hopkins & Allen .32 short. When the trigger is pulled it functions, but needs a little help to fully return forward. I'm not familiar with pieces this old. But I believe I am missing an internal part. Possible a cast off cam spring or rebound. I have not been able to track down a schematic on this pistol. Numrich does not shown the schematic of the 1886 I have? Can anyone offer any help. Even a picture of one so I could manufacture the part my self? Help a brother out.:

May 29, 2013, 08:33 AM	#4
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	It looks like the fourth one down on the right. But they all look about the same I will post a picture later this evening when I get home from the junk yard. I have already done alot of work and have to get it total 100% functioning or i'll never get over it. Help! Last edited by wick73; May 29, 2013 at 08:39 AM.

May 29, 2013, 08:43 AM	#5
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	4th one down on the on right is a Hopkins & Allen if I remember correctly... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

May 29, 2013, 08:51 PM	#7
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	Mag Wheel Man you got your ears on. Well there's the pics. oyu said " bug me a little, & I'll see if I can round up one of my books & scan the page you'd need... if you still plan to work on it", I got the the pics. up finally. Last edited by wick73; May 29, 2013 at 10:18 PM.

May 30, 2013, 05:46 AM	#9
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I'll make myself a note, to bring the book in to work on Monday, & get an assembly diagram scanned in so I can post it __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

May 29, 2013, 07:05 AM	#2
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I have many of these guns, & a couple books ( I'd have to dig up ) my local gun smith buddy refuses to work on these guns, as the parts were all iron ( not steel ), they are small, & hard to work on... if the gun functions, lube it well, if it doesn't function, spray it down good with gun scrubber, & re-lube it... if it still doesn't work, most people will just leave them in that condition... the guns are not worth much, & you can easily put more into fixing one problem, than they are worth, only to find the next problem shows up, after little or no firing of the gun... I'd suspect one of the springs is either missing ( broken ) or worn out... if you are determined to work on it, bug me a little, & I'll see if I can round up one of my books & scan the page you'd need... if you still plan to work on it, & or the gun has sentimental value, you could probably buy a 2nd gun off of Gun Broker for a reasonable price to keep as a parts gun this is most of my 32 collection... do you see one similar ??? ( top 4 & bottom gun are 22's... the others are all 32's ) __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

May 29, 2013, 07:59 AM	#3
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	Might be a manual here: http://stevespages.com/page7b.htm

May 29, 2013, 10:44 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The buggered up trigger and trigger guard pins tell me someone has already been in there messing around. That is common with old guns and not a good sign. Whether the gun can be fixed may depend on what that someone (or several someones) already did to it. Jim

May 30, 2013, 08:13 PM	#10
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	Thank you sir. The pins were center punch to expand them so they would stay in place. This was done a long time ago, before it was handed down to me. I wish I could replace them. I'm sure they will punch out. I have only worked on firearms from the 1930"s to present. If I could find new replacement pins that would be great, any ideal where to get such items? thanks again for you time and efforts to help me out. Sincerely, Jason

May 31, 2013, 08:02 AM	#11
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	looked a bit for my H&A book last night ( I have 2 ) but only found the safety police book... it'll require more digging... BTW... I'm not positive, without looking, but I don't think those are original H&A grip panels... BTW#2... don't know if you know or not, but the blued guns are more scarce than the nickel guns, & so worth a bit more... BTW#3... pins shouldn't be a huge problem... I'd think you could find some drill rod in the right diameter & make new pins __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

May 31, 2013, 01:26 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Yes, the "checkerboard" was a Hopkins & Allen trademark. One source says those grips were used on guns made for Merwin & Hulbert, who were H&A agents. Pins are easily made from drill rod or even nails if there is no great strain on them. If working on those guns, it is a good idea to buy cup tip punches from Brownells to keep from battering up the pins. While the pins are single diameter (not tapered), they were usually driven in right to left, and should be removed left to right. Sometimes the holes are so badly worn that oversize pins are needed, and that almost always means enlarging the both the holes in the frame and the holes in any other part(s) the pin goes through. Jim

May 31, 2013, 07:40 PM	#13
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	Grips The grips are original to the gun and it was blued originally and has been re-blued. Some one told me it's a ladies pistol due to the small frame and grip size. What's your opinions? She looks good some pitting, but I like it that way. Looks old school like it should. You guys real cool and thanks for helping me out.

May 31, 2013, 10:31 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Almost all guns of that general type have small grips. They were intended as pocket revolvers, and usually were not carried in holsters. In those days, there were few laws against carrying concealed weapons, so it was common for a man to drop a revolver into his coat pocket or a woman to carry a gun in her "reticule". (Some "ladies" carried guns in their garters, I have heard, though I have no personal knowledge.) Jim

June 1, 2013, 07:58 AM	#15
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	More good info. Keep it coming. Hope to get an internal schematic so I know what's going on in there.

June 3, 2013, 08:30 PM	#16
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	Schematic anyone? Does anyone have the schematic for my Hopkins Allen .32 ?

June 4, 2013, 06:20 AM	#17
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	sorry... I still have the post it note where I empty my pockets at home... & I've been hugely busy... if it's raining when I get home today ( which it looks like it will be ) I 'll spend a little time trying to find my H&A non safety police book... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

June 4, 2013, 07:46 AM	#18
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	Total understand That's cool I have had a crazy last week and today I have a to leave for Indiana on a two day business trip so I'll check again on thursday you can email them to me if you want Jason at [email protected]

June 5, 2013, 01:16 PM	#19
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	WICK... went digging last night ( low & behold, the book was in the study, on the book shelf, where it was supposed to be ) ( wish I started looking there anyway... not a very good image in my book... my safety police book had an exploded view... for your model, sorry, but the best I could do was patent drawings... e-mailing now... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

June 5, 2013, 05:04 PM	#20
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	There should be a leaf type spring, or maybe V shaped one, that puts upward pressure on the front of the trigger. Remove the trigger guard to access, probably. Maybe it's missing. One could be made from a springy flat piece, like a feeler gauge. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

June 7, 2013, 07:56 PM	#21
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	Learning I think you are 100% correct on that. Mike sent me a schematic and it show a piece that mine does not have was going to scan it in and show you all but the scanner is given me trouble. I will get it up as soon as I can get the printer/ scanner to connect

June 7, 2013, 08:03 PM	#22
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	Here you go guys Hopkins and Allen, missing piece.jpg

June 7, 2013, 08:36 PM	#23
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	OK, the trigger return spring is in the front of the trigger. One end is trapped between the frame and the trigger guard with a hole for that screw to go through. One of those springs can be easily made or an Iver Johnson spring from Wolff can be modified. The part you circled, that looks something like Cinderella's slipper, is the single action sear. When the hammer is pulled part way back, it engages with the safety notch; when the hammer is back all the way, it engages with a notch you can barely see at the bottom rear of the hammer. The other piece that extends down into the grip is the spring for the SA sear. If it is missing or broken the SA sear won't work and the gun will be DA only. The SA sear is disengaged by the trigger contacting the "toe" of the "slipper", pushng it up and tilting the rear down to disengage from the hammer. The spring can probably be made fairly easily; the SA sear itself would be very tricky to make and probably cost more than the gun is worth. Jim

June 7, 2013, 11:36 PM	#24
wick73 Member Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 36	Parts Issue You: (OK, the trigger return spring is in the front of the trigger. One end is trapped between the frame and the trigger guard with a hole for that screw to go through. One of those springs can be easily made or an Iver Johnson spring from Wolff can be modified.) Me: My pistol has no such part in the trigger area only pins and the only screws are going though the hammer assembly and on though the barrel pivot. The trigger housing is different and the trigger group is a different configuration. I can get a better pic. of the trigger area and post it. You: The part you circled, that looks something like Cinderella's slipper, is the single action sear. When the hammer is pulled part way back, it engages with the safety notch; when the hammer is back all the way, it engages with a notch you can barely see at the bottom rear of the hammer. (which is there) The other piece that extends down into the grip is the spring for the SA sear. If it is missing or broken the SA sear won't work and the gun will be DA only. The spring can probably be made fairly easily. Me: If i could get the Spring for the Sa sear I could repair the frame I'm very sure. I wanted to copy and paste so I could refer to your reply. I know I am missing the spring for the SA sear. It is keeping the full return action flawed. Like is stated in the post original It works fine if I help the trigger forward just with a little. Can you hook up with someone that might have the Sa sear spring? I have a full shop at my disposal so I can modify or repair anything as long as I have something to go by. Last edited by wick73; June 8, 2013 at 12:41 PM.

June 8, 2013, 07:17 PM	#25
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Sorry, I can see now that the gun in the diagram (Post #22) is not the same as the gun in the original photo. Like many companies, H&A made various models, some of which were quite different from each other. My comments were based on the #22 revolver; the original one may be quite different internally. Jim

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