Browning Hi Power appraisal

[dogtown tom]

gunnotes
Castings are far more brittle because they are hard all the way through and they are porous as well. Anyone but anyone who has had the experience of working with castings knows this. Sudden hard blows, or dropping one on a hard surface results in far more damage that a forging. I have seen plenty of castings crack or shatter when worked on or when dropped or when extreme pressure was applied to them. Golly gee even working on your car will teach you this you don't even have to have industrial experience to know this.

So tell us how many cast frame Hi Powers are cracking from firing or being dropped? YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

And no I did not remember the page number. I was asked to supply the source and page number and I did that.

No you didn't..........you got caught making up an imaginary story to fit your argument. You stated a fact that does not exist. Nothing in Blake Stephens Hi Power book mentions cast parts or cast frames.

Come on lets talk about the facts not result to juvenile attacks.

You attacked the credibility of Stephen Camp.....by inventing a supposed "fact".

If by now you do not believe the info in Blake's book then just say "I have made up my mind years ago, do not confuse me with the facts".

Wait a minute, in your response to me above you wrote that Blake Stephens was using "propaganda".....now you are chastising us for not believing info in the same book? That's illogical man!

Are you going to tell me next that the "cost savings" two-piece barrels are superior to one piece barrels or that external extractors replaced internal extractors because they were superior

Regarding the extractor........yes, i believe it to be a better design than the original. Regarding the two piece barrel........prove that it is less accurate than a one piece........you can't, because it works just fine for a HANDGUN. and BTW the HP is a handgun and not a benchrest rifle. Find one post on this forum or any other complaining about the accuracy of the Hi Power......good luck.

If used cast guns are superior as you have stated than why do the auctions get so much more for the used "T" series guns

You mean those "T" series guns with the two piece barrel, external extractor and all the other "cheap" features? Dude, you don't even agree with yourself.

[Jimmy10mm]

I'm no expert on HP or their manufacture throughout their history. OTOH, I'm 62 years old and have owned a number of them including a post war FN, a T- series, a C prefix model and just recently bought a type III from Vector Arms with tangent sight, slotted back strap and the most beautiful blue you've ever seen on a HP from any vintage AFAIC. Fit and finish are flawless as is the function so far.

Reading Blake Stephens book one thing becomes obvious. FN made changes to the HP that were improvements. The barrel bushing, the improved safety release for a couple of examples.

If you go to the Blake Stephens book on pages 168 and 169 he addresses the changes in the extractor and in the roll pin for the sear lever. Stephens says, "The series of modifications thus embodied the elusive but very happy combination of decreased cost of manufacture with the function equal or superior to what had gone before."

He does not mention the cast frame or the .40 which precipitated the need for it. He does go through the various models of the HP that FN experimented with which shows me that they were, and probably still are open to innovation and improvement of their product line.

[dgludwig]

Hey, gunnotes, you win. You've flat worn me out trying to keep up with the double-shuffle and the rope-a-dope; never directly answering a question but always bobbing, dodging and weaving your way through a labyrinth of facts without ever having a glove laid on you. I am reminded of a charge you leveled earlier in this thread:

"I have made up my mind years ago, do not confuse me with the facts".

Of that, you have me utterly convinced.

[Walt Sherrill]

Now then to answer your question, in my area finding a nice "T" series will set you back $1,000 dollars and believe me if I could go to a local gun show and buy mint "T" series guns for $500 bucks I would buy all I could get my hands on because you cannot touch a mint one here in Ohio for Less than a $1,000. About 12 years ago I bought one for $525 here in Ohio and at the time the average price 12 years ago was as high as $750. The cast guns I have seen go for anywhere from $500 to $650 for an unfired one in the box.

As I mentioned previously the 1980 silver chrome gun I bought recently I paid $1100 for and on the table next to it was a Centennial that went for $1400.

I paid $300 for my T-Series about 7-8 years ago, and it was absolutely pristine. I have the original zippered case, too. That's worth an extra $50 or so. I was lucky.

Or maybe it was not just luck. I buy darned few used guns at gun shows -- as I seldom see a reasonably priced used gun, there. When looking at used guns, I find the best buys at gun shops, pawn shops, and in the buy/sell areas of forums like this.

You've offered anecdotal evidence again -- apparently it's the only evidence you know how to offer. Let's ignore the BB's stated prices and just compare the relative differences in the prices YOU GAVE US. If you'll remember, that's what I said we should do in the original post about costs.

The Fjestad BB shows the Silver/Chrome as selling for $550 (in 95% condition) -- roughly the same price as a T-series. In your example, cited above, you showed us that you would expect to pay about the same price for a T-series as you would for a Silver/Chrome! I wonder why the much older T-series isn't selling at a greater premium? The newer Silver Chrome (made in the '90s) is selling for much more than it's original purchase price, while the T-series is only slightly higher than it's purchase price. When you figure in inflation, you get a different picture.

If you figure in inflation -- which greatly devalues the T-Series gun as an investment -- it gets really interesting. In order to get the same purchasing power from the sale proceeds of T-series bought new in 1955 and sold today, you'd have to get almost $7,700 in today's dollars.

The market HAS spoken, but apparently not in a language you understand.


.

[WVsig]

I guess we agree to disagree. Any pre-series cast or pre-firing pin block safety pistols I have seen in mint condition go fast and for high dollars. The others do not sell as fast or bring as much money. If you are lucky enough to buy one at a substantially reduced cost because the owner just wants to get rid of it you will have no trouble making money fast on it. Now there must be a reason these pre-cast and pre-firing pin safety guns are in such demand or they would not go so quickly or sell for so much more money. People who buy them obviously consider them the more desirable weapon for a variety of reasons. When you look at gun-show sales or internet sales the prices are there for all to see.

Less than $600 2 years ago. Pistols are worth only what someone paid or is willing to pay for them. Want to make me one of those premium offers for it LOL?

[Walt Sherrill]

And here's my $300 BHP (T-series.) If you check on GunBroker and Auction Arms, you'll find a LOT of BHPs being offered with prices of $1000 up, but not many of them are selling.

A member on a local forum here in North Carolina, just sold a former Israeli military T-series BHP for around $500. It's the second picture, below.

[WVsig]

And the two step shuffle continues.... Earlier in this thread you stated that you have never shot or held a T series HP that was not the epitome of BHP quality and performance and now you are stating something different. I agree that surplus guns are often not it great condition and are not as valuable due to their import marks etc but how can you state as if it is fact that this gun is inferior to another T series gun if you have not put your hands on it.

Also please site something other than your personal recollections that the FN contract guns are of lessor quality. I am not saying your statement is not true but your inability to site the source of the claims you make in this thread give one reason to question the validity of your statements.

I have my own personal thoughts on these Israeli guns but I unlike you I state them as opinion not as objective facts like you do.

[Walt Sherrill]

You are confusing surplus used police pistols with commercial guns in mint conditions. There is on heck of a lot of difference there both in condition and in price.

It seems that somebody is confused. That's the first time you've mentioned commercial grade (whatever that means) guns in mint condition. It has NOT been part of this discussion.

What you claimed, prior to this response, was that the older forged guns DEMAND a higher price due to their innate superiority. You have NOT offered the first proof of that claim. If that Israeli gun was properly reconditioned -- it was -- and was a T-series, it was, it should still demand a higher price than newer, non-forged guns, because of its superior traits. That's because these traits, you tell us, are understood and appreciated by the true gun cognescenti.

On the other hand, several of us have shown that this is generally not the case. If you go out to Gun Broker and Auction Arms, you'll find plenty of Browning or FN Hi-Powers selling for similar prices, regardless of when they were made, or regardless of whether they're cast or forged. Highly decorated models, or ones with special features, sometimes go higher.

I'm sure there are guns that have never been fired, in original boxes or zipper cases, that will demand a superior price from a collector. But that superior price has more to do with condition, completeness, and scarcity than with whether the gun was forged or cast.

Once again, when evidence is presented that refutes what you claim, you try to wiggle out of the discussion by making new claims, most of which seem more like smoke screen than substance.

[S_Constitutionist]

Wow... I'm not going to wade through all of the bickering, but I have a message to the OP:



GO SHOOT IT FIRST!! I recently traded off my last Glock for ANOTHER hi power (this one is in .40 S&W with some custom work done). I have competed with my 9mm Hi-power and walked circles around those using Glocks. A Glock is a great gun, but a Hi-Power is a better one when it comes to accuracy, speed, and performance. The edge goes to Glock for reliability, but I have put around 5k rounds through my 9mm hi power without a single glitch.

If I had to go to war with only a pistol for some reason, I'd take a 9mm Hi Power.

Compare them side by side (shooting) and see what you prefer. IMO, guns are meant to be shot and cars are meant to be driven. I build old cars and collect old guns to enjoy, not to show off to friends. It should also be noted that your gun is a FAMILY HEIRLOOM that may be worth a lot of sentimental value to your wife and your future children. No way in the world would I part with it for something that I could buy after saving for a few weeks...

[EvanWhite]

GO SHOOT IT FIRST!! I recently traded off my last Glock for ANOTHER hi power (this one is in .40 S&W with some custom work done). I have competed with my 9mm Hi-power and walked circles around those using Glocks. A Glock is a great gun, but a Hi-Power is a better one when it comes to accuracy, speed, and performance. The edge goes to Glock for reliability, but I have put around 5k rounds through my 9mm hi power without a single glitch.

I am going to get some thinner grips and give it a go.

[EvanWhite]

To the O.P.: What have you decided to do with your High Power?

I am keeping it. Going to try some slimmer grips and see what happens. Thanks everyone for the input.