280 AI or .270 - Page 7

Ridgerunner665 · December 9, 2014, 09:47 AM

Still no rifle yet...

William T. Watts · December 9, 2014, 11:48 AM

The 270win has been here a long long time, it has always been a sterling performer, what ever the AI will do the 270 will come close to duplicating plus components are cheaper (brass) that is if you can find the AI brass.. Ammunition is available for the 270 Winchester virtually everywhere so why have you fellows got the hots for something that is harder to find more expensive to load for or buy ammunition from Nosler for a round that is a proprietary round because Nosler changed the configuration of the case. I'm betting the animal you shoot will not be any deader with Nosler's version of the AI which differs from Ackleys drawings so they can put their name on it.. Somewhere I must be missing something or maybe you've made the AI into a super caliber, if I wanted to duplicate a 280Imp or beat it I would go with the 7MM Rem Mag and get a mag and be done with it knowing it will handle anything up to a 175gr bullet and do it without a big fuss when doing it.. So you want an expensive rifle with expensive ammunition and difficult to find case with a single source. If I wanted an Ackley Improved chambering I would use a Ackley configured reamer and ream out a 280 Remington chamber use 280 Remington brass to load and call it done. Your making this a whole lot more complicated than it needs to be.. William/TSJC Trinidad, Colorado 2001

William T. Watts · December 9, 2014, 12:04 PM

PaulB got it right Nosler's version of the Ackley Improved differs from P.O. Ackleys drawings/chambering, you cannot use standard 280Rem ammunition or cases and form cases for the Nosler chamber. You have to go back to Nosler for cases or ammunition for their rifle, as we say here there isn't/ain't no short cut for this chambering.. I have no idea what Nosler charges for cases or ammunition but I'm betting the standard 280Rem ammo or cases is a whole lot cheaper!! William

Kachok · December 9, 2014, 12:26 PM

If I could not fire form cases from regular 280AI I would avoid it. If you want more performance then what a 270 Win offers get a 270 WSM, I am very impressed with mine, outperforming my 7mm Rem Mag and less felt recoil then my 30-06 despite being a light 6.5lbs rifle. Brass is very well designed, thick and strong with an efficient short powder column and a sharp shoulder to reduce case stretch, and I know that inherent accuracy is a sticky issue but this thing has been a literal tack driver for me. Only downside is much like the 7mm Rem Mag it is a massive nasty overkill on deer at close range, I bring mine out if I am fully expecting shots 200 yards+ to be the norm.

William T. Watts · December 9, 2014, 12:49 PM

Deleted.. William

Ridgerunner665 · December 9, 2014, 04:24 PM

The "new" 280 AI can still use/fire form plain old 280 Rem brass...same as always...280 AI brass is just as easy to find as 270 Win brass (because you can make 280 AI brass from 270 Win brass :-) ....I can get brass from anybody that makes or sells brass.

The chamber difference thing is WAAAAAAY overblown....Maybe even a complete misunderstanding.

Why the 280 Ackley? Why the Nosler rifle?

Because I wanted to....

William T. Watts · December 9, 2014, 04:46 PM

I've read this until I'm not sure who's right, I don't intend to have this chambering in any of my rifles so it really doesn't matter. If I wanted more than what a 280 Remington could safely handle I would go with the Remington 7mm magnum. I have two .270's and like them both, I have two .280 Remingtons and like them both, personally I do think their are differences between the two chamberings but if you can use standard 280Rem cases in the Nosler version and fire form cases then I say go for it.. William

Ridgerunner665 · December 9, 2014, 04:58 PM

No they do not say that...matter of fact...they say the exact opposite....I'll post the link in a second (soon as I find it)

Ridgerunner665 · December 9, 2014, 04:59 PM

Straight from the horse's mouth...

http://faq.nosler.com/index.php?acti...=39&artlang=en

Ridgerunner665 · December 9, 2014, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner665

Straight from the horse's mouth...

http://faq.nosler.com/index.php?acti...=39&artlang=en

From the link....

When the 280 Ackley Improved was developed and standardized through the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI) by Nosler®, the decision was made to honor Mr. Ackley’s original design intent by headspacing the cartridge such that standard 280 Remington ammunition would chamber with slight (.003”/.004”) crush at the shoulder/neck intersection and fire form into the Ackley chamber without the need to seat the bullet into the rifling.

William T. Watts · December 9, 2014, 05:32 PM

Nosler chambering of their 280AI has not been widely distributed, what I have read said only they standardized the chambering nothing about how. It has been widely known if a standard 280Rem chamber was cut to P.O. Ackley's design that it usually was .004" longer if you used a standard 280Rem gauge, if you used the no go gauge it may close fully or not depending on the length of the parent chamber that was cut. It would seem if that is indeed true then it would be O.K. to use a standard 280Rem cases to fire form in the Nosler chamber. What is new the revelation the Nosler chamber is shorter and has a crush fit, I suppose Nosler sold more ammunition and cases by not advertising this to the shooting public. What would confirm this if a standard go 280Rem chamber gauge were used in the Nosler AI cut chamber it would not allow closure on the gauge. That would answer this question once and for all.. William

Ridgerunner665 · December 23, 2014, 07:36 PM

Still no rifle yet...but I did score a few boxes of Nosler 150 grain Accubond LR bullets, finally.

Ridgerunner665 · February 28, 2015, 02:39 PM

Still waiting...

dgludwig · March 2, 2015, 11:23 AM

At my age, "still waiting" might get to be an issue...

Pathfinder45 · March 3, 2015, 11:17 PM

Can't we put this one to bed? Let's end this one and let whoever is waiting to start over with a new thread including pictures and how it all turned out. I can't bear to go back to the beginning and read through the whole thing all over again to even begin to have any confidence in making an appropriate of meaningful comment. OK, I'll shut up now.......

Ridgerunner665 · March 30, 2015, 04:47 PM

My rifle is done!!!!!

Ruger480 · March 30, 2015, 05:07 PM

Ummmm.....pics?

Ridgerunner665 · March 30, 2015, 06:44 PM

LOL...I just got an email saying its finished and will be shipped this afternoon or tomorrow...don't have my hands on it yet.

But soon...

Ridgerunner665 · April 6, 2015, 06:41 PM

Ridgerunner665 · April 22, 2015, 03:52 PM

The debate was...can my 280 Ackely safely reach 3,100 fps with 150 grain Accubond LR bullets.

The answer is yes...

This isn't just a QL prediction...its a dialed in and matched up rundown...that exactly matches my results today....things tweaked to make it match are case capacity (mine is 73.9) and burn rate...changed the Ba value of MRP to .4, and everything matches every round I fired today...with 2 different bullets, the 150 ABLR and the 160 AB....the numbers, the visual indicators, and the known facts about the 280 Ackley all match here.

Code:

Cartridge          : .280 Ack Imp
Bullet             : .284, 150, Nosler Accubond LR 58734 G7
Useable Case Capaci: 65.494 grain H2O = 4.252 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Norma MRP ?

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.793% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-07.9   92    58.00   2926    2852   51397  11872     99.8    1.246
-07.1   93    58.50   2951    2900   52835  11930     99.9    1.231
-06.3   94    59.00   2975    2948   54313  11983    100.0    1.215
-05.6   94    59.50   3000    2997   55832  12032    100.0    1.200  ! Near Maximum !
-04.8   95    60.00   3024    3046   57393  12077    100.0    1.185  ! Near Maximum !
-04.0   96    60.50   3048    3095   58998  12120    100.0    1.171  ! Near Maximum !
-03.2   97    61.00   3072    3144   60648  12161    100.0    1.156  ! Near Maximum !
-02.4   98    61.50   3097    3194   62345  12202    100.0    1.142  ! Near Maximum !
-01.6   98    62.00   3120    3243   64090  12243    100.0    1.128  ! Near Maximum !
-00.8   99    62.50   3144    3293   65885  12283    100.0    1.114  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  100    63.00   3168    3343   67731  12322    100.0    1.101  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.8  101    63.50   3192    3393   69631  12360    100.0    1.087  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.6  102    64.00   3215    3444   71586  12398    100.0    1.074  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.4  102    64.50   3239    3494   73599  12436    100.0    1.061  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.2  103    65.00   3262    3545   75670  12472    100.0    1.048  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  104    65.50   3286    3596   77803  12508    100.0    1.036  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    100    63.00   3283    3590   82374  11864    100.0    1.018  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    100    63.00   2992    2981   53446  12736     98.6    1.213

Code:

 Cartridge          : .280 Ack Imp
Bullet             : .284, 160, Nosler AccuBond 54932
Useable Case Capaci: 64.520 grain H2O = 4.189 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Norma MRP ?

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.833% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-08.3   89    55.00   2766    2718   47503  11474     99.7    1.329
-07.5   89    55.50   2790    2765   48847  11539     99.8    1.312
-06.7   90    56.00   2814    2814   50228  11601     99.9    1.296
-05.8   91    56.50   2838    2862   51647  11658    100.0    1.279
-05.0   92    57.00   2862    2910   53106  11711    100.0    1.263
-04.2   93    57.50   2886    2959   54605  11759    100.0    1.247
-03.3   93    58.00   2910    3008   56146  11806    100.0    1.231  ! Near Maximum !
-02.5   94    58.50   2933    3057   57730  11851    100.0    1.216  ! Near Maximum !
-01.7   95    59.00   2957    3107   59359  11897    100.0    1.201  ! Near Maximum !
-00.8   96    59.50   2980    3156   61033  11941    100.0    1.186  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   97    60.00   3004    3206   62755  11985    100.0    1.171  ! Near Maximum !
+00.8   97    60.50   3027    3255   64526  12029    100.0    1.157  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.7   98    61.00   3050    3306   66347  12072    100.0    1.143  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.5   99    61.50   3073    3356   68220  12114    100.0    1.129  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.3  100    62.00   3096    3406   70149  12155    100.0    1.115  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.2  101    62.50   3119    3457   72133  12196    100.0    1.101  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     97    60.00   3115    3446   76220  11542    100.0    1.083  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     97    60.00   2835    2854   49606  12353     98.4    1.291

Ridgerunner665 · April 22, 2015, 03:56 PM

What I learned today...

Based on what I've seen today...the 280 Ackley doesn't show pressure until above 67,000 psi...that has always been said of Ackley rounds, and my shooting today tells me it is true.

I went to 63.5 grains of MRP under the 150 ABLR today (almost 3,200 fps)...only had slight ejector marks, bolt lift was fine, primers looked fine even...at almost 70,000 psi.

I decided 62 grains would be the MAX I would work from for my OCW workup...the other debate here was will 3,100 fps be accurate...we shall see, maybe tomorrow.

Ridgerunner665 · April 22, 2015, 04:05 PM

Ridgerunner665 · April 23, 2015, 03:06 PM

Preliminary results...long ways from a proven load though...150 ABLR and 62 grains of MRP...3,120 fps.

Darth vader · June 18, 2015, 02:09 PM

congrats on your new nosler rifle, best rifle for the price, wins awards, I have five, two customs, one trophy grade, and two patriots 26 nosler and 280AI tack drivers.

Zorro · June 20, 2015, 11:00 PM

PRACTICE!

Point being you can get a box of .270 Winchester rounds anywhere in North America.

.280 Whatever....

OK, go to the best provisioned gun shop in Salt Lake City, Albuquerque, Boise, Anchorage, or Vancouver BC and this is what you will get.

What Caliber?

.270 Winchester they have, though .30-06 probably will do even in Africa.

December 9, 2014, 11:48 AM	#152
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	I could build AI but choose to stay with standard calibers.. The 270win has been here a long long time, it has always been a sterling performer, what ever the AI will do the 270 will come close to duplicating plus components are cheaper (brass) that is if you can find the AI brass.. Ammunition is available for the 270 Winchester virtually everywhere so why have you fellows got the hots for something that is harder to find more expensive to load for or buy ammunition from Nosler for a round that is a proprietary round because Nosler changed the configuration of the case. I'm betting the animal you shoot will not be any deader with Nosler's version of the AI which differs from Ackleys drawings so they can put their name on it.. Somewhere I must be missing something or maybe you've made the AI into a super caliber, if I wanted to duplicate a 280Imp or beat it I would go with the 7MM Rem Mag and get a mag and be done with it knowing it will handle anything up to a 175gr bullet and do it without a big fuss when doing it.. So you want an expensive rifle with expensive ammunition and difficult to find case with a single source. If I wanted an Ackley Improved chambering I would use a Ackley configured reamer and ream out a 280 Remington chamber use 280 Remington brass to load and call it done. Your making this a whole lot more complicated than it needs to be.. William/TSJC Trinidad, Colorado 2001 Last edited by William T. Watts; December 9, 2014 at 12:51 PM.

December 9, 2014, 12:04 PM	#153
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	Nosler and P.O. Ackley chambers are not interchangeable! PaulB got it right Nosler's version of the Ackley Improved differs from P.O. Ackleys drawings/chambering, you cannot use standard 280Rem ammunition or cases and form cases for the Nosler chamber. You have to go back to Nosler for cases or ammunition for their rifle, as we say here there isn't/ain't no short cut for this chambering.. I have no idea what Nosler charges for cases or ammunition but I'm betting the standard 280Rem ammo or cases is a whole lot cheaper!! William

December 9, 2014, 12:49 PM	#155
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	Deleted.. William Last edited by William T. Watts; December 9, 2014 at 07:05 PM.

December 9, 2014, 04:24 PM	#156
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	The "new" 280 AI can still use/fire form plain old 280 Rem brass...same as always...280 AI brass is just as easy to find as 270 Win brass (because you can make 280 AI brass from 270 Win brass :-) ....I can get brass from anybody that makes or sells brass. The chamber difference thing is WAAAAAAY overblown....Maybe even a complete misunderstanding. Why the 280 Ackley? Why the Nosler rifle? Because I wanted to.... Last edited by Ridgerunner665; December 9, 2014 at 04:35 PM.

December 9, 2014, 04:46 PM	#157
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	I've read this until I'm not sure who's right, I don't intend to have this chambering in any of my rifles so it really doesn't matter. If I wanted more than what a 280 Remington could safely handle I would go with the Remington 7mm magnum. I have two .270's and like them both, I have two .280 Remingtons and like them both, personally I do think their are differences between the two chamberings but if you can use standard 280Rem cases in the Nosler version and fire form cases then I say go for it.. William Last edited by William T. Watts; December 9, 2014 at 05:07 PM.

December 9, 2014, 09:47 AM	#151
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	Still no rifle yet...

December 9, 2014, 12:26 PM	#154
Kachok Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2012 Posts: 304	If I could not fire form cases from regular 280AI I would avoid it. If you want more performance then what a 270 Win offers get a 270 WSM, I am very impressed with mine, outperforming my 7mm Rem Mag and less felt recoil then my 30-06 despite being a light 6.5lbs rifle. Brass is very well designed, thick and strong with an efficient short powder column and a sharp shoulder to reduce case stretch, and I know that inherent accuracy is a sticky issue but this thing has been a literal tack driver for me. Only downside is much like the 7mm Rem Mag it is a massive nasty overkill on deer at close range, I bring mine out if I am fully expecting shots 200 yards+ to be the norm.

December 9, 2014, 04:58 PM	#158
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	No they do not say that...matter of fact...they say the exact opposite....I'll post the link in a second (soon as I find it) Last edited by Ridgerunner665; December 9, 2014 at 05:03 PM.

December 9, 2014, 04:59 PM	#159
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	Straight from the horse's mouth... http://faq.nosler.com/index.php?acti...=39&artlang=en

December 9, 2014, 05:32 PM	#161
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	Nosler chambering of their 280AI has not been widely distributed, what I have read said only they standardized the chambering nothing about how. It has been widely known if a standard 280Rem chamber was cut to P.O. Ackley's design that it usually was .004" longer if you used a standard 280Rem gauge, if you used the no go gauge it may close fully or not depending on the length of the parent chamber that was cut. It would seem if that is indeed true then it would be O.K. to use a standard 280Rem cases to fire form in the Nosler chamber. What is new the revelation the Nosler chamber is shorter and has a crush fit, I suppose Nosler sold more ammunition and cases by not advertising this to the shooting public. What would confirm this if a standard go 280Rem chamber gauge were used in the Nosler AI cut chamber it would not allow closure on the gauge. That would answer this question once and for all.. William Last edited by William T. Watts; December 11, 2014 at 07:30 PM.

December 23, 2014, 07:36 PM	#162
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	Still no rifle yet...but I did score a few boxes of Nosler 150 grain Accubond LR bullets, finally. __________________ Rossi Rifleman forum Winchester Owners forum

February 28, 2015, 02:39 PM	#163
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	Still waiting...

March 2, 2015, 11:23 AM	#164
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	At my age, "still waiting" might get to be an issue... __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

March 3, 2015, 11:17 PM	#165
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	I'm sorry, but,...... Can't we put this one to bed? Let's end this one and let whoever is waiting to start over with a new thread including pictures and how it all turned out. I can't bear to go back to the beginning and read through the whole thing all over again to even begin to have any confidence in making an appropriate of meaningful comment. OK, I'll shut up now.......

March 30, 2015, 04:47 PM	#166
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	My rifle is done!!!!!

March 30, 2015, 05:07 PM	#167
Ruger480 Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2013 Location: Central Iowa Posts: 720	Ummmm.....pics?

March 30, 2015, 06:44 PM	#168
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	LOL...I just got an email saying its finished and will be shipped this afternoon or tomorrow...don't have my hands on it yet. But soon... __________________ Rossi Rifleman forum Winchester Owners forum

April 6, 2015, 06:41 PM	#169
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	Last edited by Ridgerunner665; April 6, 2015 at 07:34 PM.

April 22, 2015, 03:56 PM	#171
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	What I learned today... Based on what I've seen today...the 280 Ackley doesn't show pressure until above 67,000 psi...that has always been said of Ackley rounds, and my shooting today tells me it is true. I went to 63.5 grains of MRP under the 150 ABLR today (almost 3,200 fps)...only had slight ejector marks, bolt lift was fine, primers looked fine even...at almost 70,000 psi. I decided 62 grains would be the MAX I would work from for my OCW workup...the other debate here was will 3,100 fps be accurate...we shall see, maybe tomorrow. __________________ Rossi Rifleman forum Winchester Owners forum Last edited by Ridgerunner665; April 22, 2015 at 04:28 PM.

April 22, 2015, 04:05 PM	#172
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	__________________ Rossi Rifleman forum Winchester Owners forum

April 23, 2015, 03:06 PM	#173
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	Preliminary results...long ways from a proven load though...150 ABLR and 62 grains of MRP...3,120 fps. __________________ Rossi Rifleman forum Winchester Owners forum

June 18, 2015, 02:09 PM	#174
Darth vader Member Join Date: July 15, 2008 Location: Selma, North Carolina Posts: 25	280 ai congrats on your new nosler rifle, best rifle for the price, wins awards, I have five, two customs, one trophy grade, and two patriots 26 nosler and 280AI tack drivers.

June 20, 2015, 11:00 PM	#175
Zorro Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2000 Posts: 1,072	Ballistics Don't Matter PRACTICE! Point being you can get a box of .270 Winchester rounds anywhere in North America. .280 Whatever.... OK, go to the best provisioned gun shop in Salt Lake City, Albuquerque, Boise, Anchorage, or Vancouver BC and this is what you will get. What Caliber? .270 Winchester they have, though .30-06 probably will do even in Africa.