Anyone heard of or used this tool?

[1stmar]

Was reading a recent issue of handloading and I saw an ad for this...(consistent crimp). I tend to avoid crimping in rifle cartridges unless absolutely necessary. Just wondering if this tool could be used to offset the effects of inconsistent brass thickness. The video they show, demonstrates the best accuracy they received was at 35ftlbs. Seems like a lot, I also only saw a single instance of "proof"

http://www.bulkreloadingsupply.com/t...sistent-crimp/

Any thoughts?

[chiefr]

Looks like nothing more than a breakaway torque wrench.
I adjust the COL for optimum groups once I find the powder bullet combination.
In my younger days, won my share of matches without one. Frankly, I don't care for one. Just another gadget I can get by without.

I too, do not crimp unless, I am shooting full auto.

[Bart B.]

My thoughts:

It's a long way from a good idea to use a single 5-shot group as the best way to determine accuracy.

It's worse to crimp case mouths into jacketed rifle bullets.

The following comment in the ad:

Since there was no way to quantify crimping force, reloaders simply concerned themselves with perfecting other reloading precedures.

... shows the inventor's ignorance of the ammo industry method of measuring how much force is needed to pull a bullet out of a case; a critical part of military small arms ammo specs. How much grip case neck have on bullets is best determined by measuring that force; its easy. To say nothing of the fact that any crimp on/in jacketed bullets adds another variable to the release force total amount which also includes the amount of interference fit of bullet in the case mouth and the friction between them. And it unbalances bullets.

Few, if any, jacketed rifle bullets smaller than 38 caliber need crimped case mouths into them. And then only the very heavy ones producing 35 or more foot-pounds of recoil. Or, if they'll be shot in a full-auto machine gun.

If you use that tool on one press, you'll need to recalibrate the torque needed for a given die, case and bullet lots if the new press has a different mechanical advantage with its different link lengths.

[F. Guffey]

Any thoughts?

I have torque wrenches, one is 4 ft. long and drives 1" drive sockets.

I have inch pound torque wrenches that are 1/4" drive. the length of the torque wrench is a multiplier. One pound of weight 1 foot away is 1 ft. lb. 10 pounds 1 foot away is 10 ft. Lb.. 35 lbs. 1 foot away is 35 ft. lbs.

(Weight X Distance = foot pounds) or torque)

Then the torque has to go through the linkage, toggle etc., and there someone should have found another multiplier. Not a problem for me.

Then there are the users of the Lee CO-LET????? dies.

So I ask, is this another attempt to convert a measurement to neck tension? I can hear it now, "I use x number of torques to set neck tension".

F. Guffey

[Brian Pfleuger]

I've heard of it, I don't crimp so I've never been interested in it.

If I did crimp, I'd make my own with an automotive torque wrench. I suspect that's all their tool is anyway.

[Clark]

I have made a list of accuracy rituals that have some effect and a list of rituals that do not.

I am beginning to think that is really a list of things where the improvement can be seen with 5 shot groups and a list of things that could take up to a million shot group to see the improvement.

If a guy did crimp, the crimp force might be considered an out of control variable that could affect accuracy.

[1stmar]

Hold on a minute and hear me out on this. Suppose you had a die like a fcd that squeezes concentricly and evenly around the case and suppose (making up numbers) you had case necks that vary in thickness by .002 and the thickest cases required 10fbs to seat a bullet. The thinnest cases required 5fbs. Could you use a fcd die to compensate. The crimp would have to be light enough to not deform the bullet and would only be used to compensate for case thickness. You could use the torque wrench to adjust for the same tension not crimp

[F. Guffey]

1stmar. "Hold on a minute and hear me out on this" OK, but first consider this, we are concerned with the amount of effort to crimp for accuracy but we do not sort cases as in neck thickness. Then someone has to consider the amount of torque, I have Herter presses that seat and crimp with no more effort than the weight of the handle. I have a few Herter presses that have detents, still do not trust them, then there is the bump over adjustment for cam over, I leave the leaver down or use a rubber band.

There is a way to use torque wrenches, problem it can not be discussed in a rough crowd.

F. Guffey

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by 1stmar

Hold on a minute and hear me out on this. Suppose you had a die like a fcd that squeezes concentricly and evenly around the case and suppose (making up numbers) you had case necks that vary in thickness by .002 and the thickest cases required 10fbs to seat a bullet. The thinnest cases required 5fbs. Could you use a fcd die to compensate. The crimp would have to be light enough to not deform the bullet and would only be used to compensate for case thickness. You could use the torque wrench to adjust for the same tension not crimp

1)People who are shooting for extreme accuracy don't crimp.

2)Those people tend to sort cases.

3)Those people tend to turn necks.

4)Differences in neck wall thickness are normally mostly irrelevant (low on list of accuracy problem solutions) and could be solved by using a Lee Collet neck die which sizes against an internal mandrel rather than from the outside, which means that it leaves those variations on the outside rather than squeezing them to the inside.

[1stmar]

I agree guffey I think we get set in our ways.
Brian, I am not talking about a crimp, I am talking about adjusting neck tension and i used the lee fcd as an example. Neck turning creates it's own challenges. In the end, isn't neck turning simply a way to ensure consistent neck tension? The question is, is there another way to go about that. Can we use this tool in conjunction with other tools (fcd) in a way other then it's designer intended to accomplish our goal. No crimp, just equal neck tension (measurable, even if not ideal).

[higgite]

Originally Posted by 1stmar

Brian, I am not talking about a crimp, I am talking about adjusting neck tension and i used the lee fcd as an example.

But, the fcd die that you use as an example is a crimping die. A better example is the Lee collet neck sizing die.

[1stmar]

It is called a crimp die but it's a collet die. Perhaps a lee neck sizer would be better, not familiar with it. I'm specifically referring to rifle.

[Bart B.]

You can use a full length sizing die with a .001" larger diameter expander ball set to start up through sized down thick wall and thin wall case necks without bending them when the case is 1/16 inch down in the die. This keeps most of the neck held in alignment with the case body while the expander makes quite uniform case mouth diameters.

Serious, knowledgeable accuracy buffs do not crimp case mouths on bullets. Even the smallest amount deforms bullets more than uniform neck tension does for the length of the case neck.

The more a case neck wall has uneven thickness, the more off case center the bullet axis will be regardless of fired case sizing type used.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by 1stmar

It is called a crimp die but it's a collet die. Perhaps a lee neck sizer would be better, not familiar with it. I'm specifically referring to rifle.

It has a collet but it's a very small one and only does the top of the neck because it's a crimp die, not a neck sizing die.

It's not a collet neck die, it only crimps. It has no internal mandrel.

If you want to use this torque wrench with a collet neck die, that's a completely different proposition than using it with a FCD.

[Longshot4]

Come on crimping is for My 44 Mag. so the bullet doesn't move. Or for the 30-30 in a magazine tube or those weapons of war. Simply not for the majority of light target rounds. The tool has its use but I don't have a use for it. F.Guffy What use do you have for this tool?

[Bart B.]

In the end, isn't neck turning simply a way to ensure consistent neck tension?

Sort of. It's primarily a way to get case mouths centered in resized case necks. A secondary benefit is getting uniform neck tension.

Uniform neck tension can be had with neck expander a such as Lyman's M dies in new cases with non-uniform neck wall thickness. Wonders can be done for new case accuracy by using an M die uniforming the typical uneven new case mouth issues.

[1stmar]

Ok a little embarrassed here. Been running on 4 hours sleep over 72 hours. Not only do I know actually know what the lee neck sizer die is, but I have two and use them extensively. Yikes. Anyway appreciate the responses. I always learn something. There is always some brass spring back so maybe neck tension won't be a benefit. I think you probably get more consistent ignition by jamming into the rifling anyway.

[reynolds357]

Looks like a bunch of junk to me. Seems to be marketed toward B.R. shooters. I do not know ANY B.R. shooter who crimps. It is a torque wrench. How long is a torque wrench going to last reloading? I send my torque wrenches off once a year to be serviced and calibrated. In a year, they might click 1000 times. They are always out of adjustment when they go in. I can only imagine how accurate that cheap wrench will be at 2000 clicks.

[T. O'Heir]

"...to offset the effects of..." Any crimp die will do that. Any sizer die will work for consistent neck tension too.
Never ceases to amaze me that everybody and his brother wants to sell some gadget that does little or nothing. Including the reloading companies.