Reloading Hornady Brass - Shorter Brass

[Farmland]

I'm not sure if this is an issue for all of the Hornady brass but it is for their 45-70 LEVERevolution brass. The issue is that this brass is shorter than standard 45-70 brass. The average length is 2.035" which is .060" short of the S.A.A.M.I. cartridge trim length of 2.095" for this cartridge.

That makes it hard to get a proper crimp that is needed when using in a lever action gun. I have tired reloading any, mainly because I have bought the dies yet.

Do you think this will cause any problems if reloaded even if you can some how find a way to crimp the bullet?

[Unclenick]

Yep, they gotta make it short enough that their pointy bullet's ogive doesn't partly seat below the case mouth. Whether that will affect reloading normal bullets in it depends on the gun. If the rounds get short enough, the next round in the magazine can come out far enough to interfere with the carrier raising the cartridge up for feeding. In most instances, I doubt 0.060" will be enough to cause that tol happen. You'll have to check in your gun?

[David Wile]

Hey Farmland,

I may be wrong, but I think the maximum case length for the standard 45-70 Government case is 2.105 inches, and I suspect the recommended trim to length is the 2.095 inches you mentioned.

I have no idea about Hornady LeverRevolution brass or whether it is intended for a different purpose or what, but the 2.035 inches you are getting sure is not right for a regular 45-70.

Now, having said that the brass you are reporting is shorter than a regular 45-70, that does not mean you could not safely use the shorter brass in a 45-70 rifle. As long as you are not loading at peak pressures, a shorter case length will not make a dangerous load. The shorter case length will mean that you will have to adjust your seating and crimping die to seat your bullet that much deeper.

This really isn't a big deal unless you have a lot of standard length 45-70 brass and just a box or so of the shorter brass. Then you would have to be changing your seating/crimping die each time you changed from one brass length to another. This can be a pain in the neck, and if you have enough standard length brass, it doesn't seem worth the effort to switch between the two.

When I first started reloading, I was reloading for a 30-40 Krag, and I only had one box of 30-40 Krag brass. Someone gave me about six boxes of 303 British brass, and I fire formed them to my Krag rifle. After that, I loaded all the 303 and 30-40 Krag brass the same way with jacketed bullets which were less than $4 a hundred back then. With the jacketed bullets, I had no need to crimp, so I was able to seat them in both types of cases without making any adjustment for depth. In other words, my oveall cartridge length was the same whether I was using a 303 British case or a 30-40 case. I never shot hot loads, and both cases shot to the same point of aim.

With the 45-70, however, you will most likely want to crimp your bullets, and that will require adjustments between different case lengths. If you can return the short cases and get standard ones, I would consider doing just that. As far as die sets go, I can assure you that RCBS, Lyman, Hornady, and probably most others will seat and crimp your 45-70 in either standard or shorter length. It is really a matter of convenience.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Farmland]

That is the basic problem the Hornady brass is shorter as Unclenick referred to because they need to have the correct OAL for their plastic tipped round. Thus the brass is too short to crimp because even after the die hits the shell plate the brass is too short.

I though about getting another crimping dies and grinding off a little on the bottom. This should work provided the case is safe to reload. My guess and it is a guess is that the extra bullet out of the case should be safe to maintain the OAL?

I hope I explained this so you can understand the issue.

[David Wile]

Hey Farmland,

I had trouble believing that your 45-70 seating/crimp die could bottom out on the shellholder before the mouth of the case hits the crimp part of the die, so I went down in the basement to do some checking. I took one of my standard R-P 45-70 cases and sized it in my RCBS die set which I have been using for more than 40 years. After sizing, the case measured 2.099 inches in length. I then put the sized case back in the shell holder and raised the ram all the way. At that point, I screwed the RCBS seating/crimping die into the press with the expectation that the crimp part of the die would hit the shell mouth a quarter inch or more before the bottom of the die would hit the shell holder. I was surprised to find the case mouth met the crimp shoulder with only about 1/8 of an inch or less between the bottom of the die and the shellholder.

Based on this personal observation, I can understand how your 2.035 inch cases would be too short to be crimped in my RCBS dies. I don't know about other more modern dies, but don't think I would want the short Hornady cases you described. This has been a learning experience for me, and I admit I was surprised to find my RCBS dies would not crimp 45-70 cases that are only 2.035 inches in length.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Unclenick]

Farmland,

I think the grinding is the solution. I know the die makers will custom shorten them for you, but if David really has a full eighth to play with, I would think that would be enough. See if you can borrow an RCBS or any other brands to check out?

[Farmland]

I am really glad to see your answer on this one. You have far more experience when it comes to rifle reloading than I do. I see this as the only solution if I want to reload these for my Marlin.

I thought since it is just a sizing die there wasn't much to damage by taking some of the bottom off. Of course I could got the route of ordering custom dies too.

As long as I keep the OAL for the bullet used correct I didn't think I would have any other problems provided I can get the correct crimp and it works.

[Farmland]

To make the issue more clear I have posted a photo. The Hornady case is on the left with the red tipped bullet.

[Jim243]

Greg

This might not be an issue if you use Hornady's bullets for that round. It might be the OAL is shorter on the case because:

1. They do not want you to relaod their cases, but go out and buy more of their ammo.

2. Or because of the design and length of the bullet it would require a shorter case OAL to meet Over All Length requirements for the 45-70.

I'm not sure on the size but the only bullet they offer in the 45 cal at 350 grains that appears as the Leverevalution is #45015. Not sure if this is the correct bullet but is worth a look.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_ses...37a81825e37bab

Since it is a rimmed case it may not be an issue.

Jim

[Farmland]

325 grains

Yes the case is shorter so that the round meets the required OAL. The problem is the crimping of the bullet with standard crimping dies.

[bedlamite]

Sounds like it's time to pick up a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

No, Bedlamite, it is not "...time to pick up a Lee Factory Crimp Die." Farmland originally indicated the 45-70 brass used for the Hornady LeveRevolution load is considerably shorter than standard 45-70 brass. In fact, the brass is actually too short to be able to be crimped - at least in my RCBS die set.

Later in Post #8, Farmland shows a picture of the Hornady cartridge beside another 45-70 cartridge, and it is clear to see the Hornady case is much shorter. A couple of thoughts come to my mind when seeing the picture. Farmland seemed to indicate in his first post that he wanted to crimp the reloaded round because he was using the cartridge in a lever action rifle. If that is the case, I have to wonder why a pointed bullet is being used in a lever action/tube fed rifle. Maybe these LeveRevolution bullets are supposed to be designed for lever actions, but I would not have any use for a pointed bullet in my Marlin 1895 Cowboy gun. I don't care if someone from Hornady says it is OK, that kind of bullet is a bad choice for me. If I want a pointed bullet, I'll use a bolt action rifle. Besides, the whole idea of making a shorter case that cannot be crimped in a standard seating/crimp die makes no sense to me as a consumer.

Using a Lee Factory Crimp Die to swage a crimp wherever you want it is just plain bad reloading practice. If you use the correct brass and the correct bullet, you will be able to seat and crimp the bullet properly with any standard 45-70 die set. If Hornady's brass is too short, it is simply not the correct brass for standard 45-70 use. I suspect Hornady shot themselves in the foot on this bastard cartridge and case.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Farmland]

This is a special 45-70 load made for lever type actions. The tip is flexible so it will not set off the primer on the round in front of it during recoil. The cartridge is a plus and adds both yardage and accuracy because of it's design. It takes the 45-70 out a little longer so that it can be effective up to 200 yards as a hunting round.

Now the case is short because of the bullet design and is recommended in the Marlin instructional manual that comes with the rifle.

The problem or question is can this be reloaded. There is no doubt the factory round is safe and has been used since I believe 2006. They make them in other calibers though I do not know if they had to shorten those cases too.

The advantage of this bullet design is that you have a traditional brush gun that can if needed reach out a little longer.

[bedlamite]

I suspect Hornady shot themselves in the foot on this bastard cartridge and case.

You suspect wrong. There is a significant increase in Ballistic Coefficient with the FTX bullets. I'm not sure what it is in the 45 caliber, but in 30-30, the BC of old style round or flat nose bullets was around .180, the BC of the 160gr FTX is .330, and it works great in leverguns.

Yes, the brass must be a little shorter to accommodate the longer bullet, but since it headspaces on the rim, this doesn't cause any problems other than you have to keep the brass separate and spend $12 on another crimp die There is slightly less case volume, but since you should be starting low and working up anyway that's a non-problem.

[David Wile]

Hey Farmland and Bedlamite,

I went to the Hornady site and read what they had to say about the LeveRevolution rounds. Yes, I know a pointy bullet has a better ballistic coefficient than a flat nosed bullet. But let's keep our eye on the ball here. We are not talking about a choice between a .30 caliber round nose bullet or a .30 caliber match grade bullet being shot from match rifles in long range tournaments. We are talking about a 45-70 cartridge for a lever action rifle that was designed to be carried over your shoulder on a strap or in a saddle scabbard whether hunting or on the job.

I shoot both 300 and 405 grain gas checked bullets in my Marlin 1895 Cowboy. Both bullets have the same round nose and flat tip shapes; the 405 grain bullet is just a bit longer than the 300 grain bullet. I have a rather inexpensive Lyman aperture sight mounted on the tang of my rifle. While it is not adjustable for windage, it is adjustable for elevation. My tang sight is marked for shooting my two weights of bullets dead on at 100 yards and 200 yards. At anything less than 100 yards, it is virtually point blank aim.

Even I with my lousy eyes can sit at a 100 yard range, set the tang sight for 100 yards, and continuously send round after round down the 100 yards into a 6 inch group. If I then move to the 200 yard range, I can set the tang sight to 200 yards and do the same thing. I know other folks, both older and younger, who have better tang sights (and eyes) than I, and they can ring the steel silhouette targets round after round out to 500 yards.

Yes, the Hornady LeveRevolution 45-70 bullet has a better ballistic coefficient than my two bullets, but it is only marginally better, and I would submit that the 45-70 is not a short distance "brush" gun that you have to use Hornady's 325 grain LeveRevolution cartridge to "reach" out to 200 yards. Do you have any idea how many buffalo were killed with the 45-70 cartridge at distances a further than 200 yards? The 45-70 will reach out plenty far with its old bullets if one uses the right sights and takes the time to learn where his bullets shoot at a given distance.

Sorry folks, but when the old 45-70 can perform as it does with convenional cast bullets, I don't see any need I would have to purchace the bastard cartridge Hornady has come up with. And if I were hunting for some big dangerous game, I sure wouldn't choose that 325 grain LeveRevolution bullet over a 405 grain bullet just because it has a slightly better ballistic coefficient.

No thanks. I think I'll stick with the conventional 45-70 rounds I have reloaded time after time with the same old dies I have been using for over 40 some years, and they do not require any special die to seat and crimp them. If I ever find I need a Lee Factory Crimp Die, I will be looking for some mistake I made in my reloading.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[bedlamite]

David, feel free to continue loading the same way you have, it's your prerogative. Just don't tell anyone else they can't or shouldn't try to improve something because you think it's good enough the way it is. Personally, I welcome the addition of 50-100 yards of point blank range.

[Christchild]

FarmLand,

Looks like You may be getting some Case Crushing. Try belling the Case Mouth a bit more, and/or You can lube Your bullets with Powdered Graphite or Mica, to help decrease the friction during Bullet Seating.

[Farmland]

Actually those are factory loads, the poor lighting makes the one look a little strange.

I just want to be able to reload he Hornady case, so that is my main question. I can appreciate the strong feelings about wanting to keep to the longer case and your loads. It works and it sounds like it works well. I know my old Springfield has done well and yes we even got it to hit at a high percentage at 500 yards here on the farm.

The Hornady LE offers a bullet that is really not offered for a lever gun. It has performed well shooting paper. But my real question is how to get the crimp so I don't have bullet set back when I reload these cases.

I'm a big fan of the 45-70 and this rifle will fit the real style that I like while hunting. That is taking all day to cover the thickest cover you have ever had the pleasure to crawl through. When I hit the fields it is a toss up between my 35-06 or 25-06.

For the record I don't hunt with a sling, it just gets in the way.

[steveno]

I have found that the Hornady 45 Colt and 357 magnum brass is also about .050 shorter than standard.

[troy_mclure]

ive loaded the .45-70 hornady leverevolution cases before, but i use a t/c encore so no crimping for me.

farmland if you are willing to wait a couple weeks till i get back home, ill trade you your hornady brass for R-P brass.

[Christchild]

FarmLand.....

Hmmm....... If it's just the Brass Case Your focusing on, and not the LE bullets..... I know that most Cast bullets have several grooves down lower on the bullet, and the much more expensive Barnes 250 grain TSX bullets have several grooves in the bullet shank. I've gotten 5 boxes of those Barnes for my Dad's 45-70, and they are awesome, but that's when I was working all the time and makin' plenty cash.

If You can find the right bullet with "extra" (more than 1) grooves in the shank, that would enable You to crimp without crimping INTO the bullet (which would gouge/slightly deform the bullet shank), I'd try that. The LITTLE BIT extra bullet travel between the case mouth and the lands shouldn't cause much problem, unless You have alot of freebore and/or are using a bullet with a very short, full diameter shank. That's another beauty of the expensive Barnes. The copper bullets are longer...

Or, You may also look into trying a lightER crimp into the Bullet of Choice, and see what happens, just watch for higher pressure....

[fiveninestexas]

Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading 9th Edition clearly says "Case Trim Length: 2.040" for the 250 gr. Monoflex and the 325 gr. FTX bullets. After trimming some (10) trial cases, I find that I cannot use the Lee flaring die because the case is too short and I find that the Lee factory crimp die is also useless on such a short case. I guess my FTX bullets will look nice in a glass jar on my reloading bench. One less Hornady customer now.

[Gster]

I just received a few Hornady cases in a once fired purchase. They are from the FTX ammo and shorter than standard cases. I just loaded them up with shot capsules for snake loads. They will become dedicated for just that purpose. I also used the Lee flare die and it worked just fine

[LOLBELL]

I happened on some FTX cases in 44 mag and 45 colt. I have loaded them several times with the same loads I use in standard cases.The loads are no where near max. I am not sure of the 45 load but the 44 load is 8.5 grains of Unique with a 250 Keith SWC, home cast.

I load all of the FTX cases together because you have to adjust your flair, seater, and FC dies for the shorter cases. Is it a hassle? Not really. I can adjust the dies in a minute or so. Therefore I see no need to discard a couple of hundred pieces of brass for lack of wanting to make a few adjustments.

All of the 45's are shot in revolvers but the 44's are used in revolvers and a Browning 92 lever gun. I see no change in accuracy nor do I have any feeding issues. I don't have a 45/70, but I would think a FTX in that caliber would behave the same as the 44.

I can't comment on the RCBS crimp dies because I don't use their dies, but the Lee FC Die will crimp the shorter FTX brass just fine, in 44 and 45c

[FrankenMauser]

Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading 9th Edition clearly says "Case Trim Length: 2.040" for the 250 gr. Monoflex and the 325 gr. FTX bullets. After trimming some (10) trial cases, I find that I cannot use the Lee flaring die because the case is too short and I find that the Lee factory crimp die is also useless on such a short case. I guess my FTX bullets will look nice in a glass jar on my reloading bench. One less Hornady customer now.

Hornady's load data is designed for Hornady's components and tools. (The same goes for Speer [RCBS tools], Lyman, Dillon, etc...)
You should always keep that in mind when you come across an odd suggestion (like "trim the cases super-short to use this bullet").

That being said...
I don't use FTX/Monoflex bullets in levergun cartridges. The need for deep-seating or brass shortening is something I don't want to deal with.
And when I end up with the LVR (short) brass, I pass it on to someone that actually wants it. Not long ago, I gave two (or more) boxes of .430" 265 gr FTXs and some LVR .444 Marlin brass away to a reloader that needed it.

If I did want to use the short brass, and/or FTX/Monoflex bullets, I'd pick up a set of Hornady dies. They are capable of handling the short brass right out of the box.
Around the same price point... there are several 'boutique' suppliers that offer expander dies and/or modified Lee factory crimp dies that are intended for use on the short brass.