Mauser 24/47 questions?

[Panzershreck]

I read the thread about the Mauser 24/47 and since I always wanted a mauser, I figured maybe I should look at them....they seem to be afordable which is what I need (laid off recently). I have some questions ? tho - 1) were these used in WWII ? 2) Can you fire any 8mm mauser ammo, even corrosive? 3) what do you guys think of this one I found on gunbroker.com ?

I found this one on gunbroker, and the condition looks great. I don't know if its a reasonable price or not though. The seller wants $250 + $25. Do you guys more expirenced than me see any problams wit it? I never see these at the local shops, so I looked online a little bit. The auction number - 298903477

[Scorch]

1) were these used in WWII ?

It's hard to say, but it definitely was not in that configuration if it was. The 24/47 is a rebuild of older rifles done in 1947, 2 years after the end of WW2.

2) Can you fire any 8mm mauser ammo, even corrosive?

Yes. If you do fire corrosive ammo, be sure to clean it accordingly.

3) what do you guys think of this one I found on gunbroker.com ?

Not a screaming deal. Here's an online sale for a bit cheaper.
http://www.jgsales.com/yugoslavian-m...on-p-6408.html

[madcratebuilder]

#298903477 has the TRZ furniture marking that is desirable among Yugo collectors. The finish looks good, I would ask about the receiver # and if it matches the bolt, floor plate, and stock. He was pic's of those matching #'s but no pic of the receiver that I saw.

$250 is a tad high, my 24/47 cost $265 with three tins (1400+ rds) of ammo and a Mojo sight still in the package, been a while ago


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=299219141
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=299121438

After looking at GB prices maybe $250 is about right.

[wpsdlrg]

The Yugoslavs used the predecessor to the 24/47 (the 24/47 didn't exist yet).....the M1924..... to fight the Germans after they invaded in 1941. The 24/47 was an "updated" M1924. The exact configuration of the 24/47 was adopted in 1947 - but the rifles were NOT converted in 1947. The actual reworking of the rifles occurred from 1948 to roughly 1957. By 1957, the Yugoslavs had adopted the SKS as their standard battle rifle, so most of the 24/47's were stored as war reserve weapons. Some were still used though, to equip non front-line troops....and right up into the early 1960's, as training rifles.

It is quite possible that SOME parts of a given 24/47 were "used in WWII" (as parts of an already existing M1924).....but NOT the complete rifle. There is NO way to know for sure. During the rework, parts from the M1924 rifles which were serviceable WERE reused....... receivers, bolt bodies, cocking pieces, triggers, stocks and stock parts, sights, etc. The vast majority of the barrels were replaced. As the rifles actually used in the war obviously would have much more wear and tear, in most cases fewer parts from those would have been reused.

[chiefr]

I picked up one from SAMCO and paid the extra bit for one in excellent condition. The bore looked like it had only been test fired as the bore was mint. Bluing was almost 100% The stock had usual dings and gun was full of cosmo. IMHO, the gun was a bargain and with original Yugo surplus and a rest, I could print MOA groups. I would check SAMCO out. One thing about SAMCO is they are slow on getting stuff to you. Expect at least 10 day wait.

[Armymutt]

Are the SAMCO ones matching numbers? I notice that the bent bolt version specifically state non-matching, but that doesn't mean the others are.

[chiefr]

Yes, the numbers match on the one I got from SAMCO. I did not get the bent bolt. I did pay the extra for the sling, bayo, and other accoutrements. Stock and gun cleaned up well with lacquer thinner. A great shooter & I am pleased.

[madcratebuilder]

Originally Posted by wpsdlrg

The Yugoslavs used the predecessor to the 24/47 (the 24/47 didn't exist yet).....the M1924..... to fight the Germans after they invaded in 1941. The 24/47 was an "updated" M1924. The exact configuration of the 24/47 was adopted in 1947 - but the rifles were NOT converted in 1947. The actual reworking of the rifles occurred from 1948 to roughly 1957. By 1957, the Yugoslavs had adopted the SKS as their standard battle rifle, so most of the 24/47's were stored as war reserve weapons. Some were still used though, to equip non front-line troops....and right up into the early 1960's, as training rifles.

From Bogdanovic's book "Serbian & Yugoslav Mauser Rifles"

Red Flag Enterprise factory began the M24/47 rework in the second half of 1947. On January 13, 1948 they had completed 10,935 new M24/47's. For 1948 there is not a exact number but it's thought to be around 53.000 M24/47's completed, along with about 54,000 M98/48's (German K98's).

1949 saw about 50,000 M24/47 rifles completed, this was the end of the M24/47 rework and the factory started producing the M48 and variations.

M1924


M24/47


M24/52C (VZ24)


M48's & 52C

[wpsdlrg]

1949 may well have been the end of the rework at Kragujevac ("Enterprise 44")....due to M48 series production (which actually didn't begin until 1950, by the way, according to some sources). But, it was NOT the end of 24/47 conversions at other facilities. Over 300,000 24/47's were eventually produced (yes, right up to 1957)....not just roughly 120,000, as your post suggests. There were a number of smaller shops scattered about Serbia doing this kind of refurb/ repair/ conversion work.....even one supposed to be in Bosnia- Hercegovina though I've never been able to ascertain exactly where).

Bogdanovich's book is murky about this and a number of other details.

As to the exact beginning date of 24/47 reworks, I concede. I was really just trying to make the point that the "47" in 24/47.....just like the "48" in M48, does NOT mean the rifle was made in 1947, or 1948, respectively. This is a very common misconception - which I frequently find myself correcting. Nevertheless, I should have verified the information before trying to quote it from memory.

[DennisCA]

I have one (24/47) and love it!


Although it does have a weak firing pin spring (a easy fix - just been lazy), so sometimes there is a "Click" and it does shoot high at 100 yards (which is no problem - just hold low).

BTW - I have matching numbers; stock/bolt receiver/ect and only paid $180.00 for it! (no i don't want to sell it) The crest is faint, other than that it's in great shape!

[DoctorXring]

.

Panzershreck - check your PM's

.

[akguy1985]

some parts of a 24-47 saw use in WW2, just not the whole rifle.

[jsmaye]

They do clean up nice. -

[madcratebuilder]

Bogdanovich's book is murky about this and a number of other details.

+10

Over 300,000 24/47's were eventually produced (yes, right up to 1957)....not just roughly 120,000, as your post suggests.

After consideration I agree. There are too many M24/47's on the market to have been from a 120k stockpile. With the wide variety of marking there had to be numerous facilities refurbing them.

[DunRanull]

My M24/47 is a remarkable shooter, one of the most accurate Mauser I have fired. plain sights, no bedding.. straight up factory packed.Ive considering putting a scope on it and making an impromptu sniping rifle ala the war in Bosnia. Very nice rifles and worth getting and buffing up the wood.

[TX Hunter]

Ive got one of the Samco Global Arms Bent Bolt Handle Models.
Its one heck of a fine Rifle, I added a taller front sight, and make my own Cartridges for it out of spent 30 06 brass. The Rifle is like an extension of my Body, and I can hit anything I shoot at with it out to two hundred yards. I recently picked up a Spare Firing Pin, and I plan to aquire a few extra parts for it to put back for future use, because I believe that this Rifle will be the one I use most for the rest of my life. I love it.

[James K]

Note that the 24/47, like the M48, is based on the FN 1924 medium length action. That is not significant except that many action parts won't interchange with the "standard" Mauser 98's like the K.98k and VZ-24.

It also means the some accessories, like one piece scope bases for the standard 98, will not fit the 24/47, and that conversion to a longer cartridge (e.g., .30-'06) is not feasible.

Jim

[TX Hunter]

James K

The only modification they need is to have the front sight blade changed out, that can be reversed at any time. If you decide to try and make a sporter out of one you end up spending eneough money to buy a Winchester Model 70 , so its pretty much pointless. I think most folks will keep them like they are.

[James K]

Panzerschreck did not indicate what he planned to do with the rifle. Obviously, for a pure collectors' item, no changes should be made, but IMHO it will be a long time before 24/47's and M48's will be in the untouchable collector category.

I fully agree on the cost of "sporterizing", which I have defined as making a $200 gun out of a $1000 gun and spending $800 to do it. Still, people do it, and I am only pointing out a potential problem before it rises up.

Jim

[cousin -tz]

[FONT="Arial"][/FONT]I got my 24/48 a few years back for 125.00 has a teek wood stock that must weight 8 lb alone. didn't try to shoot it until a couple of weeks ago. I found it has a .318 bore size, am now trying to find reloading data for it. any one have any suggestions besides boat anchor?

[James K]

Hi, Cousin,

No 8x57 Mauser has a .318" bore size; all 8x57 rifles have a .311" bore size.

As to the old .318" groove diameter (8x57J), no European military rifles made after c. 1905 have the old size, they are all .323", same as the new bullet diameter (8x57JS).

Why do you think your 24/48 (??) has the old groove diameter?

Jim

[DunRanull]

NO 24/47 is a "48". The 48s were a new manufacture in Yugoslavia. And they are the same caliber as the 7.92X57 cartridge and the German K98k Mauser. As are the 24/47's.

[TX Hunter]

Did you Slug the bore to determine that it was 318 ? or did someone else say it was ? The 24 47 Yugo Mauser as well as the M 48 Yugo Mauser are supposed to have a .323 bore just like a German K 98 Mauser.

[wpsdlrg]

I should also like to point out that there were absolutely NO "teak wood" stocks ever produced for these rifles....certainly NOT by the Yugoslavs. That is a total MYTH, largely promulgated by a certain seller of these rifles.....with the initials "MM". I have no idea why they chose to do this, but I assure you, it is/was BOGUS.

The predominate wood used for stocks by the Yugoslavs, before WW2, was Walnut. However, walnut in was in short supply after the war (the war absorbed a huge amount of the available wood)....so other woods were adopted more and more. During the 24/47 re-work program, serviceable M1924 stocks were reused. While walnut was still available, the first runs of M48 rifles were stocked with that. After this, Carpathian ELM became the predominate wood used, with Beech used as well (but much less common than Elm).

The stocks mistaken for "Teak" are almost always actually ELM.

The others (who've already said this) are right. NO M1924, 24/47 or M48 series rifles were ever produced with barrels having other than the .311 / .323 bore (7.92 x 57 IS) .......NO .318 barrels were made/ used by the Yugoslavs. IF the rifle in question does actually have a .318 bore, then the barrel is NOT original to the rifle, period. In all probability, the barrel is actually a .323 one.

As for reloading data for a .318 barrel, the same DATA can be used as for the 7.92 x 57 IS cartridge.....but NOT the same BULLETS. .318 bullets can be obtained, but they are very much less common (than .323). In any case, if the rifle has a .318 barrel on it, great care should be taken with loads, because the age and condition of the barrel might be suspect. Some .318 barrels (though they are rare in the US) have been inadvertently abused by firing .323 bullets through them. So, I'd HIGHLY recommend having the barrel inspected by a good gunsmith BEFORE shooting the rifle. So, of course ONLY .318 bullets should be used......and IS data, but starting at the BOTTOM end of the loading range (or even lighter) for whatever bullet weight chosen.

That assumes that he actually has a .318 barrel.....which is probably not the case.

[James K]

Just to clarify a bit. The terms "bore", "bore diameter", and "bore size" refer to the diameter of the hole "bored" in the barrel. When rifling groves are cut, the diameter from the bottom of one groove to the bottom of the opposide groove* is called "groove size" or "groove diameter". That will also be the diameter of the bullet. In other words, the bullet is always forced through a barrel with a "bore diameter" smaller than it is, so the grooves are engraved on it.

Using inch measurements for convenience, the original 1888 8x57 rifle had a bore diameter of .311" and a groove diameter of .318". That meant a groove depth of only .0035". That turned out to be too shallow to stabilize the bullet once the barrel began to wear. The groove diameter was increased over time but that only resulted in grooves that were not fully filled by the bullet. Finally, about 1905, the German army decided to fix the problem once and for all, by going to a .323" bullet and increasing the groove diameter of the barrel to that measurement. They rebarrelled all the new Model 98 Mausers for the new dimensions, and thereafter issued only the new ammunition. Oddly enough, they called the old bullet the 8mm, and the new, larger bullet the 7.9. (As one might say, only in an army!)

The civilian name for the older cartridge was the 8x57 J (standing for "Infanterie" - the German I and J are similar and there was some confusion), and for the new cartridge the 8x57 JS, the S for the German word for large.

But the Germans had tons of Model 1888 rifles. They wanted to use them for reserves, but could not afford to rebarrel them. So what they did was just to run a new reamer into the chamber. That opened up the chamber neck, allowing the new round proper case neck expansion and there was no problem in firing the larger bullet through the smaller groove diameter barrel (remember, the BORE diameter did not change - it was still .311".

But the Model 1888 used a five round, en-bloc type clip that entered the action and fell out the bottom when empty. The Germans modified many of those to use the new 98 Mauser clip ("stripper clip" or "charger"). So, with the chamber modified and the receiver altered to use the new clip, the old rifles were considered perfectly OK and hundreds of thousands were issued to reserves in WWI and supplied to Germany's allies, mainly Turkey.

Ammunition confusion was apparently not a problem, even though Germany still had thousands of unaltered Model 1888 rifles. The new ammunition was issued in the new clips, which unaltered Model 1888's would not accept; old ammuntion was issued in the old clips, which the altered Model 1888's and Model 1898's would not accept. Loose rounds could still have been a minor problem, but in the German army's view, it was not a significant one.

Jim