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Old November 2, 2015, 12:25 AM   #26
Tinbucket
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Moo cow's effect on game

In answer to never heard of cows and buffalo breeding in the wild. I don't know. how the cow and yak got into the act was artificial insemination.
The ideas were to get a beef that could forage on its own with little or no attention. And then they bred with full blood buffalo. I am to lazy to retain everything I come across so I don't know who or how long ago.
It would make sense to replace cattle which give buffalo diseases, run open range, because no one could afford one three strands of inch cable and ten inch posts ten foot high over that much ground.
Just imagine 10000 times the meat, on the hoof, of today's cow herds, not to mention elk.
Ranching would become hunting and limits would have to be set. No feed bills nor vet bills.
Or some such arrangement.
It seems strange to me, maybe because of native blood, to fence in or out the world and only one or two live in or from the land.
White man, crazy.
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Old November 2, 2015, 11:30 AM   #27
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To hunt on his ranch, I had to work separating cows from calves. One big mean cow wanted to kill me. I will never forget her or her yellow ear tag with black letters, "84".
I complained to the rancher. He said he hates her too because she has the snort and so does her miserable calf. To me that sounded like having the schwartz in Spaceballs. Separated cows and calves moo all night. Ask me how I know.
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Old November 2, 2015, 11:31 AM   #28
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Cows graze. Deer browse. No competition for food.
I wonder then what all this "crop damage" done by deer, claimed by farmers is all about. Many farmers around here get nuisance permits because of deer eating their corn/soybeans/alfalfa intended for their cattle. On top of this, they get paid for the damage after the tags are filled. I wonder what all those deer I see out with the cattle put out to feed on left overs in picked/chopped corn fields are eating, if not the same corn? Ever hear of "acorn poisoning" in cattle? One reason many farmers don't allow cattle to pasture in the woods anymore. Like deer, cattle will gorge themselves on the fruit, and I have personally watched cattle run deer off from acorns that drop in pastures from overhanging trees on the fence-line. I was also under the understanding that one reason wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone was because of the competition on neighboring range-land between elk and cattle for the available graze. If there was no competition for food, and since cattle do not need cover, why would one ever see the two in the same area other than a rare coincidence once in a while......especially if the presence of cattle spooked deer? Whether you want to call them "moo-moos", "moo-cows" or cattle, members of the deer family(at least here in America) do not fear them and will readily feed alongside them.
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Old November 2, 2015, 12:47 PM   #29
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Neither of them like hogs though.
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Old November 2, 2015, 03:00 PM   #30
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Cows are very curious when they meet strangers in a cow field --- at times --- they can become aggressive; not too mention bull cattle.

Wild turkeys love dung beetles that are hidden under cow pies.
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Old November 2, 2015, 04:04 PM   #31
dahermit
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Cows graze. Deer browse. No competition for food. Dunno 'bout elk.
Not completely true. I have watched Michigan White Tail Deer grazing on my property. They are prone to feeding on a variety of sources...apples (and ripe Tart Cherries) from my trees, grasses, Winter Green berries and leaves, browsing on my young ornamental and fruit trees (even when grasses are available). They are however, almost exclusively browsers during the time when the ground is covered with snow, giving them less choice. I hard Winters, I have observed that volunteer apple trees will have the bark completely stripped...from ground to top of the snow by mice, from the top of the snow up to about a foot high from the rabbits and from a foot or so high up to as high as a deer can reach by standing on trier back legs. In short, deer (White Tails), will exploit many food sources, not just browse.
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Old November 2, 2015, 07:00 PM   #32
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Moo cows effect on game

At Ft Custer cemetery, the deer listen for the gun salutes. Right after everyone leaves they come out of the woods and eat all of the flowers.
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Old November 2, 2015, 07:08 PM   #33
Art Eatman
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The primary diet of horses, sheep and cattle is grass. The primary diet of goats and deer is herbs and forbs. These diets are not exclusive of other "yummies", depending on season and availability.
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Old November 2, 2015, 08:22 PM   #34
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Don't know if this is relevant, but yesterday I watched this steer with a hog that was like his best buddy. I stopped and watched them for quite a while and the steer would even reach down and lick the pig occasionally and the pig followed it around, even getting under it and between it's legs. The pig was wagging it's tail like a dog part of the time. Seemed strange to me.....
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Old November 3, 2015, 08:13 AM   #35
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Not uncommon at all to see whitetails in the fenced pastures of Ohio. They don't associate with each other and maintain their distance from one another which isn't much. Once used a cow for cover to cross an open space when deer hunting.
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Old November 3, 2015, 11:00 AM   #36
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Where I hunt, the elk don't like the cattle.
I've never seen deer with cattle, but i hear they tolerate them more.
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Old November 3, 2015, 11:57 AM   #37
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The primary diet of horses, sheep and cattle is grass. The primary diet of goats and deer is herbs and forbs.

Around here, the primary diet of dairy cattle is alfalfa. Alfalfa (Sativa) is generally described as a perennial forb. Most pastures for beef cattle around here include a good percentage of clover.....again a forb. Sheep prefer clover over grass. Clover is also a desirable feed source for horses. Biggest consumption of grasses around here for horses and cattle is their seeds......corn and oats. In the winter, the primary food for deer(other than corn and alfalfa dug out from under the snow) is tree buds....preferably poplar. Poplar is considered a "woody" plant. In other areas of the country, this may not be the case, but this is Wisconsin, selected by "North American Whitetail" as the #2 state(Kansas was #1) in the nation to hunt deer. We also are known as "America's Dairyland", meaning we have cows everywhere. We see deer and cows feeding side by side all the time, competing for the same desirable foods. There is no "effect", just an indifference between them.
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Old November 4, 2015, 03:22 AM   #38
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Deer can be devastating on crops. They will chew a fresh planting of apple trees all the way to the ground. Thats why we put up so many deer fences.
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Old November 4, 2015, 11:12 AM   #39
Art Eatman
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My generalizations refer to natural and original vegetation, not items introduced by humans.

I know from direct observation that deer will eat cigarettes. Young marijuana plants, also, as reported by one POed young would-be grower. Deer like cookie crumbs and also the gravy from big-brother stew. (Raising a pet fawn teaches all manner of new knowledge.)
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Old November 4, 2015, 12:13 PM   #40
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Thats basically my observations Art. Deer seem to have a serious sweet tooth. Amongst some other strange habits haha. Dogs also enjoy cigarettes, atleast my moms dog does. Mostly Marlboro Reds.
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Old November 4, 2015, 01:34 PM   #41
buck460XVR
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My generalizations refer to natural and original vegetation, not items introduced by humans

Well, so called "moo-cows" are not native or original to America either, iffin I remember my history, humans introduced them too

The introduction of Ag crops came about soon after. Hard to find anywhere in the lower 48 anymore, where deer are not influenced by Ag or tree farming using non native species or artificially planted. Where does one generally find the biggest and most deer? Close to Ag land for sure. What do Texas hunters fill their feeders with? Not natural and original vegetation. What do folks plant in food plots to attract deer? Generally not natural and original vegetation. Still, I've watched deer walk thru a soybean field without stopping to get to a white oak tree dropping it's acorns, and I've seen deer that were very reluctant to leave new growth cutovers when the snow was waist deep. Generally don't see many moo-cows there........
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Old November 4, 2015, 08:14 PM   #42
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Since bison and cattle can interbreed, I figure that they're both bovine. So, bison then, cattle now. For all that cattle were introduced, they do eat the same basic diet as bison.
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Old November 4, 2015, 09:54 PM   #43
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I have always heard that "deer browse." Their "browsing" in my food plots sure look a lot like grazing to me. If something walks no more than 30 feet in an hour and eats the whole time, I call it grazing. They do browse, but they also graze quite often.
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Old November 4, 2015, 10:34 PM   #44
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I'd love to hunt Moo-Cow, by far the tastiest critter on the planet.

On Texas cattle ranches, deer is quite plentiful
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Old November 5, 2015, 07:19 AM   #45
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I've seen deer eating from the cattle hay and feed bins in winter here.
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Old November 5, 2015, 08:38 AM   #46
BillM
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Western Oregon, Blacktail deer.

Have 70 acres, with about 35 of it in permanent pasture. Rest is open
hillside/forest.

This spring there were up to 15 deer in a herd grazing during the day.
I could ALWAYS hop on the ATV and see at least 5 on a cruise of the fences.

The guy that rents pasture from us brought in 27 head of cattle in
mid April. Never saw another deer during daylight hours in the pasture
until after he took the cattle out in late October.

They were still there----I would get them on my game cameras at night.
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Old November 5, 2015, 12:45 PM   #47
Art Eatman
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Browsing means the eating of herbs and forbs. Grazing means the eating of grass.

Herbs and forbs are generally low-growing and un-noticed growies. Even after many a year in the outdoors, I don't pretend to be able to identify many of them.

Deer can eat grass, sure, but the biologists say that they get no benefit from it. Eating hay in winter makes for bulk, but it merely relieves the stomach's feeling of emptiness.

Many wildlife agencies have published many articles on the subject of diets of herbivores. Probably not the epitome of wisdom to argue with them.

Next time you (generic you) field-dress a deer or elk, after you're done, cut the stomach open to see what's been eaten.
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Old November 5, 2015, 01:52 PM   #48
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Next time you (generic you) field-dress a deer or elk, after you're done, cut the stomach open to see what's been eaten.
Here in Michigan, I have done that many times with deer in the fall...allmost always full of corn.
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Old November 5, 2015, 02:15 PM   #49
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Elk ain't know how many leg a cow have either.
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Old November 5, 2015, 02:58 PM   #50
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Deer can eat grass, sure, but the biologists say that they get no benefit from it. Eating hay in winter makes for bulk, but it merely relieves the stomach's feeling of emptiness.

Many wildlife agencies have published many articles on the subject of diets of herbivores. Probably not the epitome of wisdom to argue with them.
While this may be true in true areas of wilderness(where there are not going to be any "Moo-Cows anyway), in areas where Ag crops are readily available throughout many portions of the year, it is false. Much of this thinking comes from the years where deer in large parcels of wooded areas and no previous access to Ag crops were given them as supplemental food in the winter. Deer, like cows, have four stomachs. Most of their digestion is accomplished by a suite of bacteria that break down the cell walls of the plants they eat. These microflora are specific to particular types of feed, and it takes two to three weeks to switch over from one type of feed to another. These woodland deer, already stressed, given a easy supply of hay and corn would gorge themselves on this new readily available food. They would ignore their natural food that was harder to get to because of deep snow or over-browsing. Without the natural enzymes needed to digests this food, they then were suspect to usually bloat or diarrhea, maker them even weaker. By the time they developed enzymes to digest the food, they were dead. If they did survive long enough to develop the enzymes, the minute the supplemental feeding was stopped(usually as soon as the snows melted or weather warmed), they went thru the same process again to develop the enzymes for their natural food. Another 3 weeks of no nutrition and diarrhea. But, for deer that live in close proximity to "Moo-Cows", they already have those enzymes in their stomachs because they have been browsing on those foods all along. They also don't gorge themselves on them, because they are used to them. Because of the more readily available supply of food found in Ag areas, they also generally go into winter with a better fat reserve and will be stressed less when and if the weather turns bad.

This is not arguing with wildlife agencies, only accepting their most recent observations.
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