Had to draw, seeking validation.

Texas9000s · January 1, 2007, 10:20 AM

A few weeks ago, I had a situation here at the house. What would you have done?

I came home from work just before 8:00pm, storms were about to start rolling in. Sitting down to dinner, dark, starts raining. Then we hear a loud, almost panic knocking at the front door. Against my better judgement I opened the door. My neighbor starts telling me about a "guy" who was in their back yard who they saw jump the fence into ours. I yell for my son to get the shotgun, I grab it from him open the back door, chamber a round and begin to search the yard. I come around the corner, see our "guy" sitting crouched in the corner of the fence and house, barefoot, no shirt. I level the weapon and order him over the fence, yell for my wife to call 911. The neighbor is on the other side of the fence, they collect the BG and we hold him until the sheriffs arrive. I've now put up the shotgun, put my pistol in my pocket and continue to keep the BG at a safe distance, while questioning him. He gives this sob story of being carjacked and mugged. The sheriffs arrive and haul him off.

jhenry · January 1, 2007, 10:49 AM

You were inside your house, safe and armed, it was dark and raining and someone TOLD you a guy hopped your fence. Simple tresspass. Call the police and keep your family safe in the house. Do not open the door. Do not go around the dark wet slippery yard with an adreneline dump in your veins looking for what might not be a bad guy anyway, with a racked shotgun. Too easy for a serious tragedy to happen.

A multitude of scenarios come to mind---the tresspasser is running from the cops and you zip out there in the dark rain with a weapon right in the middle of it and pull down on a plainclothes cop.----the guy is high on dope, out of his mind, and wandering through yards trying to get home, he sees you in the bad light, freaks out and comes at you, you pull the trigger and shoot some unarmed idiot who just needed to be in the drunk tank for the night. etc etc.

It's meant to be constructive critisism so there it is. I would like to commend you for having the presence of mind to recognize a potential threat and getting out the hardware, I just would advise a better thought out response next time.

mikejonestkd · January 1, 2007, 11:03 AM

Stay in the house and pick up the phone with one hand and the shotgun with the other.

There's no reason to go outside, ever, unless you are absolutely certain that a loved one is in danger outside.

DEvineWYnd · January 1, 2007, 11:05 AM

This might seem a little stupid but why did you "order him back over the fence?"

He was in your yard and you had him covered , that just seems a bit odd to me...

BillCA · January 1, 2007, 11:07 AM

From your user-id, should we presume you live in Texas? Property laws are different there than in many other states.

That said, what is the worst thing this "guy" was suspected of doing? Potentially, he's guilty of prowling your property and at the least he's a tresspasser. In your jurisdiction, is that a crime that qualifies for using deadly force? In other words, if you had ordered him to put up his hands but he ran away or hopped another fence instead, would you have fired? Would you have been justified in those circumstances? This concludes the food for thought section.

For what it's worth, I likely would have done the same, even here in Kalifornia. The weapon is there for your protection and to maintain control should he become aggressive or fail to follow your commands.

Tactically, the only change I would suggest is that once you establish control of the individual, put him face down on the ground right there. By putting him face down, arms out or on his head, you have immobilized him and reduced the threat. The sooner he is immobilized the safer you and your neighbor will be.

Also, I'm always leery of potential criminal activity where the suspect is half naked (no shirt/shoes). People high on meth often feel too hot and remove some or most of their clothing. In such a case, it's best to keep as much distance as practical because they can be very unpredictable.

While the guy may have actually been carjacked and fleeing from the assailant, I find it more than strange that he wouldn't stop and ask for help from the first person he encounters (your neighbor).

OBIWAN · January 1, 2007, 11:09 AM

I hate Monday Morning Quarterbacking...but since you asked

I am going to have to agree...no immediate threat...stay in the house

What if he was simply the bait??

As far as "holding him" ask yourself this

What would you have done if he "objected"

I only ask because so many talk of "holding" a bad guy at gunpoint when they have actually have no legal right to do so.

And very few good options if the bad guy simply walks away

Daves-got-guns · January 1, 2007, 11:23 AM

i cant really chop up what he did too much, cause he was safe had his shotgun and nobody died. the bgs crouched in a cornor, in YOUR backyard with no shirt, im guessing hes not out collecting donations for his favorite charity. I think thats about as good as you can get with the shotgun, and since the intimidation factor with shotguns is huge, this is a good example of why to keep one around the house for home defense. As far as the what if questions, "what if he would have been a really bad guy, you just so happened to be a tree hugging type who didnt believe in guns, came outside to ask the nice man if he needed a shower, he came inside took a shower, and slaughtered your whole family while singing the barney theme song", well im sorry but this is not a what if situation, this is a what did happen sitiation. and that rant "what if" is not a question at all, sort of a moc statement.

NCHornet · January 1, 2007, 12:33 PM

I think your neighbor needs to buy himself a gun so he doesn't have to rely on his neighbor to protect himself!!
Just curious, what was the attitud of the law when they arrived?

RoscoeC · January 1, 2007, 12:44 PM

I took a pistol course awhile back from a long time law enforcement guy, and his advice was to never try to hold someone for the police. Think about it a little bit. You are not equipped. No handcuffs, whatever. You are not trained to use them even if you had them. How long does it take the police to arrive in your area? If you are in a large metropolitan area, it may take the better part of an hour. That is an hour the BG has to size you up and look for an opportunity to take you. Let's say you hold him for the police. What do you think will happen to him? You effectively stopped him from doing anything. He is guilty of misdemeanor tresspass. He will get a ticket. Big deal. He won't even spend the night in jail. In my opinion, and the opinion of the instructor of my class, you did exactly the right thing. Run him off with the warning that if he returns the outcome may be very different.

With all that said, I have to agree that the best course of action may have been just to stay inside, and call the police in the first place. I don't see a lot of immediate danger in a guy crouching by the fence in the back yard. I would have certainly armed myself and kept a close watch on the situation while waiting for the police.

revjen45 · January 1, 2007, 01:01 PM

All's well that ends well, however, there could have been multiple skulkers who may have been armed and shot you while you were dealing with #1. In Texas you are allowed to shoot someone on your property at night if they are stealing something. The value is irrelevant- you can kill somebody for stealing a screwdriver. Any shooting in TX results in a legal hearing- no matter how justified you were it will cost you money for lawyers. You lucked out, but if something like that happens again, lock and load, call the cops, secure all entries, and turn off the lights inside the house. Your neighbor can arm himself or depend on the police. You have no duty to get involved.

marlboroman84 · January 1, 2007, 02:10 PM

Sounds like a bad scene from a friday night movie and it sounds like you just got out of your creative writing class.

"It was a dark and stormy night. Suddenly there was a knock on the door! My neighbor screamed in terror and spoke of a man leaping over fences. I yelled for my son! 'Quickly my boy! I said. "My Remington, Post-haste!" I kicked open the door and advanced upon the man in my yard. I leveled the shotgun on him and racked the slide. The rain made the barrel gleam in the dim light and I held this man's life in my hands."

Next time stay in the house and don't be so John Wayne. Good way to leave your family without a provider.

GoSlash27 · January 1, 2007, 02:31 PM

Wife came in from New Years partyin' ( dark and stormy in Cedar Rapids) and wakes me from a dead sleep with "OMG there's somebody prowling around the side of the house and I think he's trying to get in the back door".

So I got the Beretta from the quick access safe, threw on some clothes, pocketed a spare mag and went to have a look-see.
Nothing there.
I was as careful about it as I could be, and I only brought "Pietro" along for my own safety.
I shoulda stayed in the house, huh?

Baphomet · January 1, 2007, 02:36 PM

"Had to draw"? "Had" to? As in you were forced or compelled to do so?

No, you chose to arm yourself, you chose to exit your residence, and you chose in effect, to go looking for trouble.

Wildalaska · January 1, 2007, 02:59 PM

Recipe for a manslaughter charge.

Why is it that when folks got a gun they lose common sense

WildjoyeauanneeAlaska

mikejonestkd · January 1, 2007, 03:02 PM

I agree with wildalaska, you arm yourself and go LOOKING for trouble and most certainly trouble will find you.....

TonyM1 · January 1, 2007, 03:10 PM

I agree with what most other posters have said and even if you discount the legal aspects of the situation, leaving the house is a tactical error imo.

Texas9000s · January 2, 2007, 01:01 AM

In an effort to keep it as brief as possible, I edited my normal long winded self. I live behind a rather large retail complex, and this time of year is a bit active for the unsavory type. As I figured, and found out later, he was not carjacked, but trying to get away from the leo's. The neighbors had already called 911, and I just wanted him out and away, mainly someone else's problem. The fact that the neighbors grabbed him as he came over the fence back to the street was secondary to my intentions.

The attitude of the leo's when they arrived was suprising. As the first deputy came up the driveway, I motioned to my front pocket and lifted my fingers to show him what I was pointing at. He asked if it was mine, and politely told me to "put it in the house". Another asked if I had discharged my shotgun, when I told him no, his reply was "OK, I wouldn't have had a problem with it if you did."

T. O'Heir · January 2, 2007, 01:40 AM

Does the term, "Release the hounds." come to mind?

Recon7 · January 2, 2007, 02:06 AM

Quote:

"It was a dark and stormy night. Suddenly there was a knock on the door! My neighbor screamed in terror and spoke of a man leaping over fences. I yelled for my son! 'Quickly my boy! I said. "My Remington, Post-haste!" I kicked open the door and advanced upon the man in my yard. I leveled the shotgun on him and racked the slide. The rain made the barrel gleam in the dim light and I held this man's life in my hands."

hahahahahaha

you're so right, all the extraneous information. I like the quotation marks around "guy" in the back yard

if Texas had said "some guy jumped my fence, so I pointed a shotgun at him and called the cops," he would have been flamed a lot more. he had to set the mood.

in the end of the post the "guy" becomes a BG. how about this, the neighbor saw a "BG" and it turned out to be a guy with no shirt or shoes scared out of his wits.

no shirt no shoes no respect.

odessastraight · January 2, 2007, 07:47 AM

"...Why is it that when folks got a gun they lose common sense?..." That is certainly one of the most anti- second ammendment sentiments I've read here. WildA,wannaputyaselfouttajob?.

GoSlash27 · January 2, 2007, 09:38 AM

It never would've occurred to me to stay indoors before I read this thread. I don't think that sound tactical judgement is necessarily the same thing as "common sense"...

Wildalaska · January 2, 2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Why is it that when folks got a gun they lose common sense?..." That is certainly one of the most anti- second ammendment sentiments I've read here. WildA,wannaputyaselfouttajob?.

What is so anti 2nd amendment about my statement? And how would that put me out of a job?

Wildyaneversawsomeoneactlikeanidiotwithagun?Alaska

Wildalaska · January 2, 2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

don't think that sound tactical judgement is necessarily the same thing as "common sense"...

I beg to differ...if you dont have common sense, how can you have "sound tactical judgement"?

WildcuriousAlaska

mete · January 2, 2007, 02:40 PM

Some years back in PA BGs tried to break into a home . The owner told them he was armed ....Then the homeowner went outside [maybe to make a "citizens arrest" ??? ] and they blew him away...Your home is easily defendable [physically and legally] .To go outside and face an unknown situation puts you in great physical and legal danger. Common sense should tell you that .Tactical knowledge certainly would .'Tactical judgement' involves knowledge and common sense. ..Your survival comes first ,everything else is a distant second !!

OBIWAN · January 2, 2007, 02:55 PM

I am with Ken on this one

Having a weapon should make you more cautious...not less

"With great power comes great responsibility" (Peter Parker)

January 1, 2007, 10:49 AM	#2
jhenry Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,840	Ok You were inside your house, safe and armed, it was dark and raining and someone TOLD you a guy hopped your fence. Simple tresspass. Call the police and keep your family safe in the house. Do not open the door. Do not go around the dark wet slippery yard with an adreneline dump in your veins looking for what might not be a bad guy anyway, with a racked shotgun. Too easy for a serious tragedy to happen. A multitude of scenarios come to mind---the tresspasser is running from the cops and you zip out there in the dark rain with a weapon right in the middle of it and pull down on a plainclothes cop.----the guy is high on dope, out of his mind, and wandering through yards trying to get home, he sees you in the bad light, freaks out and comes at you, you pull the trigger and shoot some unarmed idiot who just needed to be in the drunk tank for the night. etc etc. It's meant to be constructive critisism so there it is. I would like to commend you for having the presence of mind to recognize a potential threat and getting out the hardware, I just would advise a better thought out response next time. __________________ "A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer

January 1, 2007, 11:03 AM	#3
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,716	Stay in the house and pick up the phone with one hand and the shotgun with the other. There's no reason to go outside, ever, unless you are absolutely certain that a loved one is in danger outside. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

January 1, 2007, 11:05 AM	#4
DEvineWYnd Member Join Date: October 13, 2006 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 30	This might seem a little stupid but why did you "order him back over the fence?" He was in your yard and you had him covered , that just seems a bit odd to me... __________________ Come on zombies. I'm ready. Is it because light travels faster than sound that some people appear bright...until they speak?

January 1, 2007, 11:07 AM	#5
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	From your user-id, should we presume you live in Texas? Property laws are different there than in many other states. That said, what is the worst thing this "guy" was suspected of doing? Potentially, he's guilty of prowling your property and at the least he's a tresspasser. In your jurisdiction, is that a crime that qualifies for using deadly force? In other words, if you had ordered him to put up his hands but he ran away or hopped another fence instead, would you have fired? Would you have been justified in those circumstances? This concludes the food for thought section. For what it's worth, I likely would have done the same, even here in Kalifornia. The weapon is there for your protection and to maintain control should he become aggressive or fail to follow your commands. Tactically, the only change I would suggest is that once you establish control of the individual, put him face down on the ground right there. By putting him face down, arms out or on his head, you have immobilized him and reduced the threat. The sooner he is immobilized the safer you and your neighbor will be. Also, I'm always leery of potential criminal activity where the suspect is half naked (no shirt/shoes). People high on meth often feel too hot and remove some or most of their clothing. In such a case, it's best to keep as much distance as practical because they can be very unpredictable. While the guy may have actually been carjacked and fleeing from the assailant, I find it more than strange that he wouldn't stop and ask for help from the first person he encounters (your neighbor). __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

January 1, 2007, 12:33 PM	#8
NCHornet Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2006 Posts: 1,001	I think your neighbor needs to buy himself a gun so he doesn't have to rely on his neighbor to protect himself!! Just curious, what was the attitud of the law when they arrived? __________________ When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away!! Carry ON!! NCHornet

January 1, 2007, 10:20 AM	#1
Texas9000s Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Posts: 29	Had to draw, seeking validation. A few weeks ago, I had a situation here at the house. What would you have done? I came home from work just before 8:00pm, storms were about to start rolling in. Sitting down to dinner, dark, starts raining. Then we hear a loud, almost panic knocking at the front door. Against my better judgement I opened the door. My neighbor starts telling me about a "guy" who was in their back yard who they saw jump the fence into ours. I yell for my son to get the shotgun, I grab it from him open the back door, chamber a round and begin to search the yard. I come around the corner, see our "guy" sitting crouched in the corner of the fence and house, barefoot, no shirt. I level the weapon and order him over the fence, yell for my wife to call 911. The neighbor is on the other side of the fence, they collect the BG and we hold him until the sheriffs arrive. I've now put up the shotgun, put my pistol in my pocket and continue to keep the BG at a safe distance, while questioning him. He gives this sob story of being carjacked and mugged. The sheriffs arrive and haul him off. __________________ Mossberg Maverick 88 (The Ford Pinto of shotguns) Beretta 9000s 40 cal Bushmaster Evil Black Rifle.

January 1, 2007, 11:09 AM	#6
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	I hate Monday Morning Quarterbacking...but since you asked I am going to have to agree...no immediate threat...stay in the house What if he was simply the bait?? As far as "holding him" ask yourself this What would you have done if he "objected" I only ask because so many talk of "holding" a bad guy at gunpoint when they have actually have no legal right to do so. And very few good options if the bad guy simply walks away

January 1, 2007, 11:23 AM	#7
Daves-got-guns Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2006 Location: Marysville Washington Posts: 291	i cant really chop up what he did too much, cause he was safe had his shotgun and nobody died. the bgs crouched in a cornor, in YOUR backyard with no shirt, im guessing hes not out collecting donations for his favorite charity. I think thats about as good as you can get with the shotgun, and since the intimidation factor with shotguns is huge, this is a good example of why to keep one around the house for home defense. As far as the what if questions, "what if he would have been a really bad guy, you just so happened to be a tree hugging type who didnt believe in guns, came outside to ask the nice man if he needed a shower, he came inside took a shower, and slaughtered your whole family while singing the barney theme song", well im sorry but this is not a what if situation, this is a what did happen sitiation. and that rant "what if" is not a question at all, sort of a moc statement.

January 1, 2007, 12:44 PM	#9
RoscoeC Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2006 Location: DFW Metromess Posts: 562	I took a pistol course awhile back from a long time law enforcement guy, and his advice was to never try to hold someone for the police. Think about it a little bit. You are not equipped. No handcuffs, whatever. You are not trained to use them even if you had them. How long does it take the police to arrive in your area? If you are in a large metropolitan area, it may take the better part of an hour. That is an hour the BG has to size you up and look for an opportunity to take you. Let's say you hold him for the police. What do you think will happen to him? You effectively stopped him from doing anything. He is guilty of misdemeanor tresspass. He will get a ticket. Big deal. He won't even spend the night in jail. In my opinion, and the opinion of the instructor of my class, you did exactly the right thing. Run him off with the warning that if he returns the outcome may be very different. With all that said, I have to agree that the best course of action may have been just to stay inside, and call the police in the first place. I don't see a lot of immediate danger in a guy crouching by the fence in the back yard. I would have certainly armed myself and kept a close watch on the situation while waiting for the police. __________________ “Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." --Helen Keller "Do not cry havoc when you should but hunt with modest warrant." --William Shakespeare Glock Certified Armorer NRA Life Member

January 1, 2007, 01:01 PM	#10
revjen45 Junior member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 626	All's well that ends well, however, there could have been multiple skulkers who may have been armed and shot you while you were dealing with #1. In Texas you are allowed to shoot someone on your property at night if they are stealing something. The value is irrelevant- you can kill somebody for stealing a screwdriver. Any shooting in TX results in a legal hearing- no matter how justified you were it will cost you money for lawyers. You lucked out, but if something like that happens again, lock and load, call the cops, secure all entries, and turn off the lights inside the house. Your neighbor can arm himself or depend on the police. You have no duty to get involved.

January 1, 2007, 02:10 PM	#11
marlboroman84 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2006 Location: Memphis,TN Posts: 541	Sounds like a bad scene from a friday night movie and it sounds like you just got out of your creative writing class. "It was a dark and stormy night. Suddenly there was a knock on the door! My neighbor screamed in terror and spoke of a man leaping over fences. I yelled for my son! 'Quickly my boy! I said. "My Remington, Post-haste!" I kicked open the door and advanced upon the man in my yard. I leveled the shotgun on him and racked the slide. The rain made the barrel gleam in the dim light and I held this man's life in my hands." Next time stay in the house and don't be so John Wayne. Good way to leave your family without a provider. __________________ Ban Liberals, not guns! ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE (mo-lone lah-veh)

January 1, 2007, 02:31 PM	#12
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	I'll take my 40 lashes as well... Wife came in from New Years partyin' ( dark and stormy in Cedar Rapids) and wakes me from a dead sleep with "OMG there's somebody prowling around the side of the house and I think he's trying to get in the back door". So I got the Beretta from the quick access safe, threw on some clothes, pocketed a spare mag and went to have a look-see. Nothing there. I was as careful about it as I could be, and I only brought "Pietro" along for my own safety. I shoulda stayed in the house, huh? __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

January 1, 2007, 02:36 PM	#13
Baphomet Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2006 Posts: 262	"Had to draw"? "Had" to? As in you were forced or compelled to do so? No, you chose to arm yourself, you chose to exit your residence, and you chose in effect, to go looking for trouble.

January 1, 2007, 02:59 PM	#14
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	Recipe for a manslaughter charge. Why is it that when folks got a gun they lose common sense WildjoyeauanneeAlaska

January 1, 2007, 03:02 PM	#15
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,716	I agree with wildalaska, you arm yourself and go LOOKING for trouble and most certainly trouble will find you..... __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

January 1, 2007, 03:10 PM	#16
TonyM1 Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: FL Posts: 115	I agree with what most other posters have said and even if you discount the legal aspects of the situation, leaving the house is a tactical error imo.

January 2, 2007, 01:01 AM	#17
Texas9000s Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Posts: 29	In an effort to keep it as brief as possible, I edited my normal long winded self. I live behind a rather large retail complex, and this time of year is a bit active for the unsavory type. As I figured, and found out later, he was not carjacked, but trying to get away from the leo's. The neighbors had already called 911, and I just wanted him out and away, mainly someone else's problem. The fact that the neighbors grabbed him as he came over the fence back to the street was secondary to my intentions. The attitude of the leo's when they arrived was suprising. As the first deputy came up the driveway, I motioned to my front pocket and lifted my fingers to show him what I was pointing at. He asked if it was mine, and politely told me to "put it in the house". Another asked if I had discharged my shotgun, when I told him no, his reply was "OK, I wouldn't have had a problem with it if you did." __________________ Mossberg Maverick 88 (The Ford Pinto of shotguns) Beretta 9000s 40 cal Bushmaster Evil Black Rifle.

January 2, 2007, 01:40 AM	#18
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Does the term, "Release the hounds." come to mind?

January 2, 2007, 07:47 AM	#20
odessastraight Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Posts: 199	"...Why is it that when folks got a gun they lose common sense?..." That is certainly one of the most anti- second ammendment sentiments I've read here. WildA,wannaputyaselfouttajob?.

January 2, 2007, 09:38 AM	#21
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	It never would've occurred to me to stay indoors before I read this thread. I don't think that sound tactical judgement is necessarily the same thing as "common sense"... __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

January 2, 2007, 02:40 PM	#24
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Some years back in PA BGs tried to break into a home . The owner told them he was armed ....Then the homeowner went outside [maybe to make a "citizens arrest" ??? ] and they blew him away...Your home is easily defendable [physically and legally] .To go outside and face an unknown situation puts you in great physical and legal danger. Common sense should tell you that .Tactical knowledge certainly would .'Tactical judgement' involves knowledge and common sense. ..Your survival comes first ,everything else is a distant second !!

January 2, 2007, 02:55 PM	#25
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	I am with Ken on this one Having a weapon should make you more cautious...not less "With great power comes great responsibility" (Peter Parker)

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