May 21, 2009, 05:43 AM | #1 | |
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Police CCW exemptions
How fast would CCW restrictions relax for the rest of us, if the police exemptions were done away with, meaning CCW in restaurants, schools, crossing state lines, etc. Why doesn't the NRA go after the police exemptions so that we all end up on the same page?
No interest in a police bashing thread, just curious why they are given leeway that regular citizens aren't, wondering if it is a point of contention, and how it came to be.
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May 21, 2009, 07:47 AM | #2 |
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I'm thinking this might benefit more in L&CR.
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May 21, 2009, 07:51 AM | #3 |
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This is one of those things that leaves me conflicted.
On one hand I think everyone should have to at least "go through the motions" to help reduce the "hey I'm special and you're not" mentality. On the other hand I hate wasting time and money on "makework" kind of stuff when "shall issue" is a foregone conclusion for LE officers. The funny thing is that, on the books, many areas restrict police to exactly the same code and the general population, however "in real life practice" that's ignored with a "wink and a nod" because, well, it's the POLICE. |
May 21, 2009, 09:42 AM | #4 |
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because unlike the civilian population, the Police go thru a lot to be allowed to do what they do (extensive background search, a lot of departments use lie detector tests and psych exams, in depth interviews with the applicant and sometimes they even talk to neighbors to see what kind of person they are, written exams and so on) Those that pass are deemed fit to burden themselves with the job of protecting the public. If you want to argue against that, then would you be ok with those same tests in order to carry your weapon?
Last edited by #18indycolts; May 21, 2009 at 09:59 AM. |
May 21, 2009, 09:46 AM | #5 |
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That's an interesting take. Good point for thought. It's been one brought up in the campus carry arguments quite a bit and I'm afraid that the progun side doesn't always have a good answer.
Trying to limit police carry won't aid in getting general expanded privileges in my opinion.
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May 21, 2009, 11:08 AM | #6 |
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The point is how many felons does the average citizen put in jail that would like to get revenge on the officer or his family. How many times a day does the average citizen risk his life in the protection of others, and by the way I am in favor of Shall Issue convince your legislators.
#18Indycolts you forgot all those reapeated law classes and use of force classes.
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May 21, 2009, 12:24 PM | #7 | |
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But I don't think restricting a cops right to carry is going to help us much. Last edited by ZeSpectre; May 21, 2009 at 12:33 PM. |
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May 21, 2009, 12:31 PM | #8 |
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Someone looked at that awhile ago. While it makes sense, and anything is possible, the rate at which cops are actually confronted, off duty, with former arrestees, once convicted, is microscopic. Sorry I don't have a reference for this, maybe some LE's could chime in.
If true, I think that fact could work slightly in our favor, vis a vi equal protection. Nonetheless, I believe they have a right, as we do, to carry. But the average citizen is not significantly less likely to need to means to self defense than an off-duty/retired oficer, IMO. |
May 21, 2009, 12:57 PM | #9 |
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LEOs are authorized to carry nationwide by H.R. 218
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May 21, 2009, 01:04 PM | #10 | |
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May 21, 2009, 04:14 PM | #11 | ||
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Or would we just end up with another HR 218? I'm not speculating, to diminish any police rights, as much as questioning the oddball restrictions on the non-police. Restaurants, libraries, parks, school property, church, handgun purchases, CCW across state lines, transport within a state, etc....individually they all seem somewhat debatable/reasonable, at least from discussion i read around here. Yet all rolled together, they become something else entirely.
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May 21, 2009, 06:19 PM | #12 | |
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Regardless, that all has absolutely nothing to do with the issue, if you consider "keep and bear arms" a right. Rights have no qualifications. They exist with or without the endorsement of governments. Or maybe I should say in spite of governments. |
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May 21, 2009, 07:31 PM | #13 |
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As soon as the uniform comes off so should any responsibility and extra privileges.
I'm a medic and I cant carry my drug box around with me or any advanced life saving equipment. As soon as I am off duty I am a plain joe and cannot do advanced life support. Should be the same way for officer of the law. Less stress for them I would think.
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May 21, 2009, 07:35 PM | #14 |
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I have accedentally carried in at least 2 places I shouldn't have and felt very uneasy about it.I just don't like to break any laws that could jeprodize any of my rights in the future.
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May 21, 2009, 08:07 PM | #15 |
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Chill out. LEOSA , giving national recognition for carry by current & retired LEO's MAY just open the door to national recognition of State Issued CCW's...thats a good thing AND a bill to to so has been introduced in the Congress.
The CCW in National Parks bill ALSO helped move forward the issue ! |
May 21, 2009, 08:18 PM | #16 |
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I can't run names or radio for back up but, I can take police action off duty. You can't intubate or pace but you can perform BLS off duty.
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May 22, 2009, 11:29 AM | #17 |
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Thankful for reponsibilities handled by LEs
I see the possibility of Alloys point, but I also think that it is more likely that LEs simpathetic to civilian carry are more important to the cause than trying to limit the LEs in order to somehow improve the lot civilians. I for one am grateful that LE's are not only allowed more leeway in regard to carry but are often REQUIRED to carry when "off duty". And besides, the more responsible legal gun toters out there, the safer I feel.
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May 22, 2009, 11:50 AM | #18 |
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Eggheads in power - when has that been the case? We need a laughing manically smiley.
Let's stay with reality here. The issue is police carry. There is the theoretical debate of whether police are different from nonpolice so should they be able to carry and what is their law enforcement responsibility off duty? There is the issue that despite the theoretic, folks think the police are more competent than the civilian (NOT Me - I am a competitive ninja and cops can't shoot like me - blah, blah) and thus aren't afraid of them. Thus, nongun folks are more approving of off duty carry. I have no trouble with police carrying off duty. I regard that as no threat to a push for more civilian carry abilities.
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May 22, 2009, 01:09 PM | #19 |
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The basic reason that police carry off duty is that they are still empowered to act officially when off duty and are expected and even required to take action if something serious arises in their presence that might require use of deadly force to stop that threat from being used against someone else (or even themselves). What would you rather they do.....stand there empty handed and yell "stop...or I'll yell stop again" while a criminal shoots or stabs a victim??? Geez....some of this stuff is riduculous and sounds a lot like just plain jealousy that "I can't do something so why should they"
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May 22, 2009, 01:12 PM | #20 | |
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May 22, 2009, 01:25 PM | #21 | |
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Police are not "different" than other citizens. We just have different a duty to act. This should not turn in to either/or discussion. Off-duty carry by POs has very little to do with CCW by civilians. I fully support CCW. However, if you do carry on a given day it's nobody's concern but yours. If I don't carry off-duty and Murphy decides to visit not only does it affect me it affects those civilians I am unable to assist. To say nothing of the sanctions that would be applied at my agency and in the media. |
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May 23, 2009, 06:30 AM | #22 |
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First, I'll say I support LEO's right to carry anywhere.....
with that said, the reason they can is because they work for the government.
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May 23, 2009, 07:52 AM | #23 | ||
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May 23, 2009, 08:49 AM | #24 | |
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My beef is with the politically-motivated police administrators and their representative organizations who champion police exemptions. Those organizations lend unwarranted credibility to efforts to restrict gun rights, claiming they "speak for the police" when they do not. They only tolerate police exemptions to ensure that the real rank-and-file police have little reason to speak out loudly or in great numbers against "civilian" restrictions. The exemptions do not address valid special needs of police officers as much as they are a means to keep police from resisting the gun control agenda. Police exemptions are a reflection of the success of the divide-and-conquer strategy of gun control proponents. But privleges granted can also be taken away. Some of the police administrator organizations, like the International Association of Chiefs of Police, are openly anti-gun and do not even try to placate rank-and-file officers. The current IACP legislative agenda includes support for banning amor piercing ammunition, reinstating the AWB, limiting civilian sales of body armor, reinstating purchase waiting periods, closing the "gunshow loophole" and requiring all gun sales go through FFLs, and requiring microstamping ammunition. IACP also opposes The Police Officers' Bill of Rights and LEOSA. |
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May 23, 2009, 01:39 PM | #25 |
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Back when the LEOs were trying to get their national right to carry law passed, they were up close and personal with the CCW crowd. This was supposed to be a first step in a national reciprocity law. Once we proved that LEOs needed to carry while on vacation, they were going to help us prove we needed to carry on vacation. The LEOs needed the money and politcal help of the CCWs. Once their law was passed, it seems the entire "deal" was over.
One could make the argument that LEOs are more trained in physical self-defense and non-lethal self-defense and are therefore less in need of carrying a firearm while off-duty than the average untrained citizen. And we will not get into the issue of off-duty LEOs being shot by accident by uniformed cops (a problem even with on-duty non-uniform cops and undercover cops), nor the issue of an off-duty LEO using the firearm in a non-LEO manner while out on the town, causing the issuing agency liability for his actions. I think everyone, LEO or citizen, should be able to carry everywhere they desire. It is funny to listen to my brother (a deputy sheriff) complain when he is disarmed at the county courthouse even while in uniform. All I can say is welcome to my world.
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