Black Person, Black Hoodie = Reasonable Suspicion?

[johnbt]

"The suspect was a black male wearing a hoodie."

Did they check the suspect's gender at the crime scene?

How could they be certain the suspect was a male without a strip search? I'm serious, the suspect may have appeared to be a male, may have spoken like a typical male, may have dressed like a male, but hey, crossdressing and stuff happens.

I spend too much time drinking beer with lawyers.

John

[MLeake]

I was wondering that, myself.

Not having seen the suspect or the woman, and not knowing what they look like, I'm not sure how obvious it was that the suspect was a man, and the woman was not.

Just yesterday, looking around at people at restaurants and stores, there were several whose gender was not immediately obvious. Often, this was due to extreme obesity making normal characteristics difficult to observe. PC or not, it's hard to tell when body shapes are amorphous.

Also, there have been recent robberies where the "man" was a woman (in hoodie, ballcap, and sunglasses), or the "woman" was a man (cross-dressing). It would depend, I suppose, on whether the suspect's identity were known, or if people were responding to a general description, as to whether a woman would obviously not be the suspect.

icedog88, going back to judging people - we are talking about snap judgements based on appearance. We aren't talking permanent judgements. If the person dressed in a manner that puts us on edge turns out to be polite, friendly, and pleasant, it's not hard to overcome the initial apprehension. But the point is, the initial appearance in this case is something that has to be overcome. (And it's not a racial thing; my bells and whistles don't go off over conservatively dressed black males, but they do over white males in hoodies and baggie pants, assuming no major behavioral cues are happening.)

[Rusty35]

johnbt
Senior Member
"The suspect was a black male wearing a hoodie."

Did they check the suspect's gender at the crime scene?

How could they be certain the suspect was a male without a strip search? I'm serious, the suspect may have appeared to be a male, may have spoken like a typical male, may have dressed like a male, but hey, crossdressing and stuff happens.

I spend too much time drinking beer with lawyers.

The person was seen committing a crime, but he is only suspected of committing the crime.

The suspect that was definitely committing the crime, is suspected to be male, but may indeed be not male, and is suspected to be wearing a Hoodie,but may not be.

All officers be on the look out for some one not fitting this description.
If you see some one fitting this description , look the other way.
Only stop white females not wear hoodies.

[icedog88]

Had an entire post written but deleted it because some people just don't get it. Profiling is wrong imo. Period. Do it if you must to "go home at the end of the day" but don't be surprised if those that are profiled do their own profiling. If we could all dress alike and speak the same as everyone else does, I'm sure this wouldn't be an issue. As for me, I choose not to profile and yet continue to make it home everyday without alienating different types of people. Lots of LEOs in my sphere of friends and family. The ones who do profile don't rate very high with the rest of us.

At which point the police should not pull over any one matching that description,

As for this, they were looking for a male, they pulled a female and cuffed her after establishing this.

This may or may not fit profiling but at the least smacks of harrassment.

[Rusty35]

icedog88
Senior Member

Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 328

Had an entire post written but deleted it because some people just don't get it. Profiling is wrong imo. Period. Do it if you must to "go home at the end of the day" but don't be surprised if those that are profiled do their own profiling. If we could all dress alike and speak the same as everyone else does, I'm sure this wouldn't be an issue. As for me, I choose not to profile and yet continue to make it home everyday without alienating different types of people. Lots of LEOs in my sphere of friends and family. The ones who do profile don't rate very high with the rest of us.

Quote:
At which point the police should not pull over any one matching that description,
As for this, they were looking for a male, they pulled a female and cuffed her after establishing this.

This may or may not fit profiling but at the least smacks of harrassment.

Not arguing that Profiling is questionable, or that the stop in question, wasn't questionable.
Only that using a description from an eye witness is not profiling.

As for profiling, every one does it every day, including you.
A profile is just that, and every person fits a profile, and we have to use those profiles to get through the day.
The woman at at the restaurant wearing a waitress uniform carrying a little pad of paper fits the profile of a waitress, so we give her our order.

The guy driving a yellow car with a light on top fits the profile of a Taxi driver so we wave to him to stop.

[icedog88]

Drawing conclusions on a group based on profiling without confirmation is what I am referring to. Negative connotations associated with manner of dress more often than not, turn out to be false.

MLeake:

A person's behavior and how they act is a better assessment of a person's character than how they dress. A person in traditional Arabic dress does not raise my alarms anymore than a person in jeans and a t-shirt. However, if either one is acting suspiciously or out of the norm of everyone else around them, that's my cause for alarm.

As with anything I try to do (for the most part), I am not in any way trying to disrespect anyone, merely disagreeing. It's one of the reasons why I love this forum!. Because we can and still have respect.

[MLeake]

icedog88, I'm not trying to be a jerk; and I agree with you about observing behavior as ultimately being more important.

Where we disagree, apparently, is on the importance that many people put on first impressions. It takes time to observe behavior. It takes a flash image to see how something appears. Like it or not, human survival depended on making very fast judgements based on appearances, for many thousands of years. It's pretty ingrained.

Overcoming a negative first impression requires conscious effort. The things that give us negative first impressions may well be functions of popular culture; they may also be functions of individual experience. They may even be based on some objective observations (for instance, security camera after security camera showing people using hoodies pulled up, ball caps pulled down, and sunglasses to try to defeat security cameras; hoodies and sweats or baggy pants used to hide weapons; etc).

And, as I said to Young.Gunr, "norms" vary with where you are and who you are among. The "Why did Little Tiffany have to die?" scene from Men in Black is one of my favorite illustrations of this idea.

Going back to the male/female thing: Again, I haven't seen pictures of either the suspect, or the woman. Differences may have been immediately apparent, I don't know.

We had a murder last week in Kansas City, committed by a woman who was angry that the decedent had not paid her for drugs she gave him to sell. The mug shot photo they ran of the woman... well, if you didn't know she were a woman from the article, you might have no idea from the photo. I could easily see witnesses who didn't personally know her, thinking that a man had been the killer.

[Rusty35]

icedog88
Drawing conclusions on a group based on profiling without confirmation is what I am referring to. Negative connotations associated with manner of dress more often than not, turn out to be false.

MLeake:

A person's behavior and how they act is a better assessment of a person's character than how they dress. A person in traditional Arabic dress does not raise my alarms anymore than a person in jeans and a t-shirt. However, if either one is acting suspiciously or out of the norm of everyone else around them, that's my cause for alarm.

As with anything I try to do (for the most part), I am not in any way trying to disrespect anyone, merely disagreeing. It's one of the reasons why I love this forum!. Because we can and still have respect.

I agree that behavior is a better assessment, however ,observing behavior is done after profiling.

We cant say that all people who walk into a convenience store with a gun in their hand are convenience store robbers.
But they certainly fit the profile.
So we use a profile to determine the need to asses behavior.
If a person walks into a store with their face covered by a hoodie, with their hands in their pockets,you would be wise to profile.

We also have to consider that dressing in a certain way is a behavior in its self.

[icedog88]

We cant say that all people who walk into a convenience store with a gun in their hand are convenience store robbers.

Action

If a person walks into a store with their face covered by a hoodie, with their hands in their pockets,you would be wise to profile.

I classify this as action as well even though it is close to how a person is dressed. 20 degrees here, in winter, it's normal.

MLeake: I'm not so sure we even disagree to that extent. First impressions, imo, is slightly different than profiling used in the context of an entire group. A person wearing a hoodie in the inner city may well be a thug, but doesn't mean everyone who wears one is a potential thug either.

For example, I knew of a older man who lived in the projects in Portsmouth VA, who always had a red bandana hanging out of his pocket. Yup, you guessed it, not a Blood, just a hanky. But wait, if I use profiling, black male, red bandana, must be gang affiliated right? See what I mean? You say but he was an older man. Doesn't fit completely. Wrong. Gang members for life and if he was gang in his younger years, then got out, he wouldn't be still claiming his set by wearing colors.

Overcoming a negative first impression requires conscious effort.

So does becoming proficient with a handgun. We want to do this, so it is easier than if it is forced upon us. I say the same can be said of any learned behavior.

[Young.Gun.612]

So in this country where we're free to practice any religion, adhere to almost any political belief, we should still conform our dress to ways that will prevent close minded people from judging us simply for what we're wearing? Entirely wrong. If you're so paranoid of any young person of any color based on their clothing, well maybe you should move out to the woods and bunker down. Fashion changes, and people will dress in what their contemporaries dress in. Urban styles dont automatically correlate to criminal behavior.

[Alaska444]

One of my patients at the city I was in was one of the chief detectives on the force. He collated ALL of the arrest reports for the entire year since that was one of his duties. One year, he simply made a pile of each race that committed the crimes and was arrested. One for blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and Whilte.

One race that is by far a minority in this city had three times the number of crimes as the next in line, while the predominant race in town had the least by far. I will let folks fill in the blanks to not provoke a complete TFL melt down, but to deny that there are racial problems where certain groups of people do commit a majority of the crime is not looking at the evidence clearly.

We now have a very aggressive mayor in town that has cracked down on the abuses of the section 8 welfare homes drawing national attention as well as the expected ACLU law suit. I can tell you that the section 8 house three doors over from mine had up to 30 people living there. Had arrests for gang and drug activity, multiple neighborhood complaints, recorded neighborhood crimes, break ins, fights, drug dealing etc. Did HUD do anything? NOT A THING. Did the city at the time under a different mayor do anything? NOT A THING.

What saved our neighborhood. FORCLOSURE, YES!! The house went for sale and the new owners vacated the lease to the section 8 criminals. Crime in our neighborhood immediately fell to nothing.

There is a serious gang problem growing in America fueled by free HUD supplied housing where they place their operations and criminal activities right in the midst of "good" neighborhoods. For anyone that has spent anytime in our prisons, the reality is that race is the predominant separating factor. It is also a truth that the leaders in the prison gangs run things on the streets. The prison gang wars spread into our neighborhoods by this well organized criminal activity.

As a Christian, I readily understand that all men are of the same blood and we all have a soul that will stand before their own Creator and give account. My two best friends from the Army are black. I a married an Asian woman and my children all have brown eyes and black hair. I am not the least motivated by racial overtones in my personal life, but having spent 8 years preaching in a maximum security prison, and had dozens of police officers as my patients, the facts are quite clear. To survive on the streets as a cop, profiling is quite simply a fact of life whether it is "right" or "wrong," it simply is. Here in this town where a minority race is responsible for the majority of the crimes and arrests, looking for the kids in the black hoodies is unfortunately a reality.

Lastly, when I see the known criminals in our own neighborhood (we have a very active neighborhood watch program by necessity) almost all of them to a tee are seen in black hoodies even in the hottest months here in the southwest desert. Sorry, but after over a decade of harrassment in my own neighborhood by hooded folks, I take notice of them immediately should any approach me. The cops I have spoken with likewise do the same. Just the way it is in the real world.

[icedog88]

Well i will be sure to stay away from people with 3 names then as most serial killers have those, be sure to stay out of trailer parks cuz that's where the meth labs are, and so on and such like. We can go on and on. What I mean is it's perfectly fine to be aware, but this type of thinking leads to further alienation and promotes fear on all sides. The movie "The Siege" illustrates this perfectly. And it is absolutely plausible.

[Alaska444]

Sadly, my neighborhood has been under seige in the last decade, mostly by those wearing hoodies. We now have a top of the line alarm, bars on our windows and doors as well as other security precautions all in a state where CCW is out of reach. Yes, seige is exactly what it is my friend. Try living 3 doors over from a house with 30 people conducting gang and drug activity and get back to us to tell us what you would call it my friend.

[icedog88]

Pretty Lake Ave, Norfolk,Va. 1992. I lived across the street from a crack house. Told the owner to respect my family. Never had one problem.

[johnbt]

"Urban styles dont automatically correlate to criminal behavior."

No, not automatically, but the odds are they aren't nuns or nurses or plumbers. Clothing style IS a behavior. Hair style IS a behavior.

There's urban like a three-piece suit and there's urban like a drug dealer.

Heck, I bought a hoodie and wore it in D.C. during most of 1965. It was stupid looking then...

John

[lawnboy]

Here's my two cents:

I consider it my duty as an adult to judge people. The closer I get to you and the more I interact with you the more I'll judge you. This doesn't mean that I'll call you out or behave rudely to you if I judge you "not my sort". It just means that I'm not going to trust you, confide in you or spend any time with you. I'll treat you with the basic level of courtesy due to all people whenever we do interact. Not more than that. I'm responsible for who I associate with, so my duty to judge you is clear.

Since it is my duty to judge, I must judge on some basis. The first thing available to judge you on is what you look like. The range of acceptable appearances at this time in history is pretty large. If you choose to look like a bad guy extra in a movie you are telling me something about yourself. I may find out later that this poor judgement in your appearance is just a harmless quirk. But initially I'm going to judge you on the info I have.

I have a few friends and regular acquaintances who run the gamut from black guy/black hoodie to looking like one of Schillingers crew from the old HBO series Oz. Some of them I was initially wary of, but later found out to be good guys. I also know people who look like fine upstanding citizens but are as evil as it is possible for a human to be. So while appearance is a good first place to start, it's not the end of the story.

The Government is not allowed to judge you. I am required to judge you. Don't ignore the difference.

[Young.Gun.612]

odds are they aren't nuns, or nurses...

I dress in a manner that, based on what has been said in this discussion would have many of you grabbing the grip of your trusty ccw and looking over your shoulder. I work 40 Plus hours a week at a hospital. Shot a hole in that logic, now didn't I?

It's 2011, things, people, society, fashion, all change. Get a grip on reality and realize that just because a person dresses in a way that is fashionable to them and their contemporaries doesnt make them a threat to you.

If the manner of dress of the population bothers someone that much, move to an area where people dress more akin to you. The rest of us shouldn't have to be judged or profiled becauae of your (this is directed at no one in particular, its a figurative "you") paranoia of all things not Cleaver-esque.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We seem to be going in circles and risking close to the flames.

Anything NEW to say - otherwise ...

[lawnboy]

I dress in a manner that, based on what has been said in this discussion would have many of you grabbing the grip of your trusty ccw and looking over your shoulder. I work 40 Plus hours a week at a hospital. Shot a hole in that logic, now didn't I?

No you didn't. The logic is sound. Your resistance to the consequences of your choices is where the issue lies.

You are free to dress as you like. For that matter, you are free to do as you like. No law, code of conduct or custom can restrict you. All laws, codes of conduct and customs can do is impose consequences. The consequences of dressing and appearing to your fellow man in a way that draws negative attention are yours to bear. You bear them because of your decisions. I bear the consequences of judging you. Everyone has their part to play.

[icedog88]

I am required to judge you.

This is a choice. A conscious decision on your part. No one "requires" you to judge but yourself.

People are missing the point. Judge, if you must. But on action, and not on appearance. You all know Grandma taught "not to judge a book by it's cover" lol. I guess the best I can hope for is civility at this point. Personally, I choose a more positive outlook than a pessimistic one. Much easier to deal with. Me that is.

[lawnboy]

That's my point. I am the only one who can REQUIRE me to do anything. All anyone else or anything else can do it impose consequences.

All of life is composed of responsibility, choices, actions and consequences. In my opinion most evil occurs when someone tries to artificially break this chain. Usually this happens in the "responsibility" or "consequences" part of the chain. This thread deals with the "consequences" part.

How else do you judge a book without reading it?

[MLeake]

Look, YG... If I go out in a Hugo Boss suit and loafers, I get viewed and treated differently than I do if I go out in boots, chinos, and leather bomber jacket... Or sneakers, faded jeans, and a tank top... Or The North Face hiking gear... Or my beat-up green 1951 jacket and combat boots.

Good or bad, each look is likely to evoke a different reaction, which will vary with the audience. My identity and personality haven't changed, as people will rather quickly figure out. But most people will form their initial impression based on how I look.

According to the undergrad psychology courses I took back when, that is pretty universal behavior. Experiments involving pre-K kids showed that they had a strong tendency to assign personality traits to people they had only observed in photos. (Generally, kids seem to think physically attractive people are "nicer". Go figure...)

People also tend to be more comfortable around people with whom they identify. I tend to prefer the company of educated but outdoorsy and active people. My sister, who is a university VP, tends to hang with an academic (and largely urban) crowd.

My sister probably reacts more favorably to people in hoodies than she does to people in cowboy boots and Stetsons...

Whether we like it or not, people do form first impressions before we even say a word.

And we know this, or else we would dress down when meeting the families of our significant others, buying cars, and job- hunting.

So sometimes I dress up, sometimes I dress down. But I am aware that in many instances, how I look may matter.

[icedog88]

How else do you judge a book without reading it?

You said it man!

[MLeake]

The irony of "judging a book by its cover" is that publishers pay editors and artists a lot of money to design covers that will hook potential readers.

If people were not affected by art, lead-ins, review tag lines, etc the publishing industry would not waste millions of dollars on such...

[nate45]

This thread has wandered off into profiling, when the story in the OP, assuming its an accurate account, seems more a case of mistaken identity than racial profiling.

If the description the officers had was of a White man with a mullet, wearing a monster truck t-shirt and driving a 1978 Chevy pick up, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they wouldn't have pulled the individuals in question over.