Soliciting Opinions/Thoughts

[full case load]

Is a medium warm "Special" load a safe starting "Magnum" load? Considering that the handgun is chambered for the magnum and the cases are 1/8" longer. Same bullet weight/type & same powder weight/type.

[Mal H]

When discussing loads of any type, it is always best to give the actual caliber(s) you are talking about. Since there are only a few Special/Magnum combinations, though, I have to assume you mean either .38 Special/.357 Magnum or .44 Special/.44 Magnum.

In general, no, a warm Special load is not necessarily a good starting load for the Magnum big brother. Most often even the max Special load isn't what would be considered a safe starting load in a Magnum with the same type/weight of bullet. The type of powder used is also a critical factor. For example, you might have a good max load of Bullseye for a .38 Special, but it would be very light (far below min) in a .357 Magnum.

Actually, if you look at it from the other angle, you can see how wrong your premise is. In almost all cases, the min suggested load for any powder in the .357 Mag would be far above the max load even for a +P .38 Special - almost double for some powders = very dangerous. So if you can't go in one direction, you shouldn't attempt to go in the other.

[Adamantium]

(My advice is based on 38/357 as that is what I reload)

I'll disagree and say in general yes, you can load down. The notable exception being H110/296 where you are specifically warned not to. I'll use the specific example of Bullseye and 158 grain lead SWC's which I mostly load. Max 38 +P load is is 3.9, while Alliant "suggests" that the max 357 load is 4.8, making the traditional 90% minimum load 4.3. Are you saying that anything between 3.9 and 4.3 is dangerous? With my Lyman manual it says that the starting load for 160 grain lead W/ Bullseye is 4.9 grains. Does that make Alliant's own load data dangerous because it is all below the "safe" starting load?

My recommendation is if you do load down use powders which are applicable to both the Special and the Magnum cases and not Magnum only. Or use Trail Boss.

[mehavey]

Is a medium warm "Special" load a safe starting "Magnum" load?

General rules cannot be generally applied here because of the different burning characteristics of certain powders when unconfined. Unless you are totally familiar w/ those characteristics, stick with the Magnum manual's beginning loads -- or uncompressed Trailboss -- as suggested above.

Lyman's manuals probably give you the broadest range of low-powered options.

[SL1]

I'll agree with Adamantium and disagree with Mal H.

Yes, you can SAFELY use mid-range loads .38 Special loads in .357 Magnum cases. The reason that this is safe is that the powders selected for .38 Special burn well at the ~ 15,000 to 20,000 psi pressures used in the .38 Special, so loading down from the 30,000 to 40,000 psi loads found in manuals for the .357 Magnum is not a problem for THOSE powders. Any concern about getting the pressure TOO low by seating the bullet about 1/8" farther out in the Magnum case is covered by using the mid-level .38 Special powder charge instead of the "start" charge.

Remember, the manuals that provide only "start" and "max" charge weights are not giving ANY information about MINIMUM charge weights. Some manuals DO provide minimum charge weights, and those should always be complied with.

SL1

[PA-Joe]

Are you talking about shooting standard ammo such as the 38 spec in a 357 magnum? Yes, you can. If you are talking about reloading using 38 spec load data in a 357 case then not a good idea.

[Jim243]

SL1, I have to disagee with you and agree with Mal H. The volume of the case will determine the amount of pressure as well as the amount of gun powder. An under pressured round can cause excessive pressure just as a over pressured load can. That is why certian powders are made for light loads that take up more space in the case to insure a proper amount of burn and no excessive pressure is generated.

Jim

[Shoney]

full case load

The previous posts have good information. However, from your post it is not clear what you mean when you say use a special load.

Are you talking about using the special load in the magnum case, or are you going to use the special load in a special case?

None of the above posts addressed that issue, so you need to follow Mal H's advice and be more specific. You need to list the cartridges you are going to load, i.e. the cases you will use Special and Mag, or just the Mag case. Then the issue can be better addressed.

[full case load]

Alrighty then, I guess to be fair to y'all I'll come clean. I was being purposely vague to see if I could get the answer I want by coming around the back. The cases I was referring to could, by dimension, be a special and a magnum but one is the 32 H&R Mag, two is the 327 Fed Mag. According to my wife, I am hard headed and quite a bit less intelligent than I think I am. With what I'm going to say next she'll likely gain support from more of you than I'd like, but . . . Without getting too detailed, I've had past and present success in reloading and shooting Blue Dot in various calibers. One of my carry guns is a SP101 in 327 Fed Mag. I would like to work up a load using Blue Dot for this cartridge. Nothing printed anywhere that I can find regarding B.D. and the 327. There is however, a B.D. load in print for the 32 H&R Mag and I was trying to get a feel for what you thought about putting it in the 327 for a starting load. There is the long winded explanation for my question and I apologize if you feel like I lead you on a snipe hunt.

[SL1]

full case load,

As you probably know, the SAAMI pressure limit for the .327 Federal Magnum is about 10,000 psi higher than the pressure limit for the .32 H&R Magnum. So, even putting the "max" H&R load of Blue Dot in the Federal case is going to produce less than a "full house" Federal Magnum load. I would think that you would want more than that for a "carry" load. But for a mid-range practice load, then maybe H&R performance is all that you are seeking.

Blue Dot is one of the powders that has been "touchy" in the reloading manuals. Alliant retracted some data for that powder in the .357 S&W Magnum when using light bullets, but has never been specific about why. So, I would be careful with data for that particular powder, considering both the source and age of the data that you have for the H&R.

Probably the best answer you can gegt would be by calling Alliant and asking THEM that question. You can call 1-800-276-9337 or use their "Ask the Experts" Internet form at http://www.alliantpowder.com/questions/default.aspx .

SL1

[full case load]

SL1 - Thanks, I'll try the 800 number. I emailed them 4-5 months ago regarding my questions. Politicians could learn from the non committal, non answer I received. Of course I understand their liability stance and them not wanting to gear up expensive testing just for one old fool who wants to use a powder with sometimes questionable stability. Even if I get to the point where I start testing loads over the chronograph and for accuracy I may find it doesn't equal the success I've found in other calibers. Thanks All and don't put much more effort into this. I can see I need to put some study into the line location between stupidity and tenacity.

[SL1]

Jim243,

Think about the .38 Special / .357 Magnum issue this way:

Using a typical 158 grain bullet like the Hornady XTP-HP in the .38 Special case leaves 13.608 grains of water capacity in the powder space. Using the same bullet with the same seating depth in the .357 magnum case leaves 16.099 grains of water capacity in the powder space. So, using the .357 magnum case gives about 18% more powder space. Thus, you ARE correct that even a max .38 Special charge in the .357 Magnumn case would produce lower pressure than the .38 Special "start" charge in the .38 Special case if the "start" charge is simply set at 90% of whatever the "max" charge turned out to be from the pressure testing (which is usually how the "start" charge is set).

BUT, the "start" charge is NOT the "minimum" charge, which most manuals no longer address. Some of the older manuals used to use tables that showed the powder charge weights that would provide specific muzzle velocities for each of maybe 10 powders. In that format, no entry under a particular velocity meant either that the pressure would be above the SAAMI limit (when the blank space was on the high end of the velocities) or that there were other problems such as squibs or insuffucient charge to reliably get the bullet out of the barrel (when the blank space was on the low end of the velocities). In low-pressure hangun cartridges, there were usually no blank spaces in the low velocity ranges for most powders, because the velocity table did not go down to the lowest possible velocities for a given bullet/case combination with the most suitable powder for "mouse-fart" loads. However, powders like H-110, W-296 and AA #s 7 and 9, and 2400 and 4227 do sometimes show low velocity blank entries.

Still, the "faster" powders typically show more than 18% differences between the highest and lowest charge weights shown in a particular table, often reaching 30%.

However, the now-retracted Blue Dot data for the 125 grain bullet in the .357 Magnum showes only a 6.6% charge weight range between the lowest velocity addressed by the table and the max velocity for that powder, AND Blue Dot is NOT a listed powder for the same bullet in the .38 Special. On that basis, my previous recommendation would be to not use Blue Dot at charge weights below what is shown in the .357 Magnum tables.

But, the OP's question was going the other way. He wants to use data from the LOWER pressure cartridge in the higher pressure one, and in a gun designed for the higher pressure. That really only raises the question about what can happen if the pressure is too low. We all seem to be able to agree that too-low pressure can cause squibs that leave a bullet in the barrel, which is a hazard IF the gun is fired again with the bore obstructed.

But, you seem to be saying that too low a charge can, ITSELF, burn with unexpectedly too high pressure. While that has been demonstrated with large bottleneck rifle cases and slow powders, it has never (yet?) been demonstrated in the lab with fast pistol powders in straight-walled pistol cases. In fact, there is a LOT of shooting done with very small charge weights of fast powders in pistol cases. The primary hazard from doing that seems to be the potential for double or triple charging a case, which can, of course, create dangerous pressures.

Anyway, now that the OP has specified that he is thinking about using Blue Dot, I agree that it is not a good powder to use when straying from pressure-tested recipes. I don't know what data he has for Blue Dot in the H&R Magnum that he wants to apply to the .327 Federal Magnum, but I have already provided my concerns about data for that powder in my preceding post.

SL1

[emirikol]

generally yes for 38/357 loads but check your data

Alliants data for "cowboy" RNL .357 with unique has less powder
than the same RNL bullet as there .38special "pistol/revolver" load.

[Doodlebugger45]

Now the original question makes a whole lot more sense. Blue Dot is one of those powders that I have shunned for pistols. No particular reason other than the alerts that were issued awhile back. If it was me I would try 2400 powder. It is very forgiving stuff over quite a range of pressures. It will get dirty and smokey if the pressure is too low, but it isn't dangerous. Or Unique is a pretty forgiving powder as well over a range of loadings.

[SL1]

full case load,

Checking for Blue Dot loads in the 327 Federal Magnum, I found none. That includes my copies of Handloader Magazine, where Brian Pearce worked-up loads for the .327 using several faster and slower powders, but not Blue Dot. That may or may not mean anything.

As for Blue Dot data for the .32 H&R Magnum, my Hornady 4th Edition Manual, printed in 1991, does show Blue Dot with a 85 grain jacketed bullet (#32050 HP/XTP). That manual uses the velocity table format for charge weights, rather than the more common "start" and "max" format. The data range from 4.4 grains giving 700 fps (which is the lowest velocity used in that table, but not necessarily the minimum safe charge for that powder) to 6.0 grains giving 950 fps (which is a maximum charge, rather than the highest value the table goes to). The velocities were obtained using an H&R revolver with a 4" barrel.

Doing a little math: The Hornady manual specified a COL of 1.360 for that load. QuickLOAD indicates a default powder space with the capacity of 13.172 grains of water when that bullet is seated to that COL. And, QuickLOAD indicates a default powder space with the capacity of 15.970 grains of water when the same bullet is seated to the same depth in the .327 Federal Magnum case. So, with that particular bullet, the Federal case has 21.2% more powder space than the H&R case. In comparison, the range of charge weights in the Hornady manual is 36%. So, at least with this data for this bullet, when the "two-thirds-of-the-way" charge of Blue Dot for the H&R case is put into the Fed Mag case instead, it should give about the same pressure as the lowest charge weight given for the H&R case when loaded in the H&R case.

So, normally, I would say that it would be a "go" to start there with this particular bullet in the .327, given this data. HOWEVER, this data preceded the withdrawal of some of the Blue Dot data for some other, similar cartridges. So, I would urge more caution in this particular situation. And, if the H&R Blue Dot data you have is for a different bullet, then these calculations are not necessarily applicable to your data.

Normally, the thing that I try to do when faced with your type of question is to adjust the charge weight in the data to keep the "load density" the same for a change in case capacity. I use that for capacity changes caused by changing seating depth as well as for going between a standard pressure cartridge case and its "magnumized" version that is stretched only a bit just to keep it from being chambered in a gun not designed for "magnum" pressure. For small changes in case capacity, that tends to keep the pressure roughly the same. Actually, it tends to be a little higher when you are increasing case capacity and a little lower when you are reducing case capacity. So, don't go to very large differences in case capacity when using that method.

For those reading this who don't know the definition of "load density," it is the ratio of the powder charge weight to the powder space volume, where the units are typically grains of powder for the charge and grains of water for the powder space volume. But, any units will do as long as you use them consistently and get the same number for both cartridges.

SL1

[WESHOOT2]

I suggest Blue Dot for medium-weight jacketed bullets in 10mm only.

Since there are SO many appropriate published other choices for any cartridge, it does not appear logical to use a powder, any powder, that has a history of noted difficulties.

[AlaskaMike]

it does not appear logical to use a powder, any powder, that has a history of noted difficulties.

Absolutely!

To me, Blue Dot is like the psycho ex-girlfriend of smokeless powders. For some applications she's not bad at all, but then crank things up just a couple tenths of a grain and she flies off the handle, trashing the room, screaming obscenities and coming after you with a 12" kitchen knife.

If it were me I would try 2400 or AA9, maybe Power Pistol.

[full case load]

Thank you all for your effort, research (specifically SL1), arguments, and tolerance. Back when crushing copper was the accepted method for measuring pressure and Blue Dot was safe, I reloaded and shot pounds of it. Everything from 38 spec. to 44 mag. I've still got at least 500 rounds (Blue Dot reloads) in 44 mag that I will continue to shoot only because I have reloaded and shot at least twice that many rounds back when the same load was still a "safe load". (It was a mid range powder charge at the time and my Super Blackhawk is still tight). I have a still sealed 5 pound container of fairly new Blue Dot that will likely now remain sealed and stored. I am going to start working up a load with an unknown to me powder. Blue Dot RIP, I'll miss you (joking). Thanks again.

[AlaskaMike]

That's a little different if you have 5 pounds of it gathering dust on the bench. It's not a powder I'd go out and buy for anything I currently load, but if I had a quantity on hand I'd certainly use it. You shouldn't have any trouble working up a .327 Mag load with it.

[full case load]

AlaskaMike - What Are You Doing ? ? (this is tongue in cheek by the way) For at least 6 months and in several forums I've been looking for a Blue Dot/327 answer and might have even settled for a little positive encouragement. Me, being a cut off nose to spite face type, often times in response to some post, almost ran to my reloading bench. I would have thrown a few rounds together and went out and shot them just to "prove" you guys all wrong. I, SO, WANTED to do that. But, after months of listening to reason I finally decided to give up my quest. And, here you go now throwing temptation back at me, shame on you ! ! ! Now for real, I have put off practice with that weapon long enough, so I'm going to get some "safe" powder to reload so I can become more proficient. I will however, keep my eyes and ears open for my B.D./327 answer. (I like a psychotic girlfriend, sometimes one of her more than the other though. Three of her is rare but more fun at times.)