age range of Iver Johnson 38 S&W

coldspit47 · January 14, 2015, 03:46 PM

I've come into possession of an old Iver Johnson .38 5 shot that I can't seem to fit into any of the 3 series. NOTE: I'm not really looking for value (thought that's nice to know) - the finish is toast, flecks of rust all over it, and some pitting - I'm just curious for the history of it. It belonged to my grandfather way back when (from which I also obtained a Schmidt-Rubin 1911 Infantry rifle), and most of his have been foreign to me.

It's an exposed hammer 5 shot top break automatic casing extraction. Cylinder is free wheeling at rest, no safety, and owl is looking toward the cylinder, not the handle.

Top of the barrel is inscribed "Iver Johnson Arms and Cycle Works Fitchburg Mass USA". Partial serial is on the trigger guard 18236 (perhaps 18286 with a poor stamp on the next to last digit), patents stamped on the butt of the handle are all but obliterated. It appears to list June 18.96, Aug 25 (unreadable second set of numbers), and Sept 16.04, though that's my best guess.

Inside the handle (I'm afraid to remove it again for fear of cracking the grips after reading about their fragility) is a flat spring (not coil), and the extended serial of T18286452, and the 452 is stamped along the bottom edge, not the side as with the other numbers/letter.

From what I've learned researching it, this is a black powder pistol (not smokeless), and looks closest to the 1st series of automatics IJ created. However, I am no gun expert and would appreciate more knowledgeable input.

James K · January 14, 2015, 04:12 PM

It is the Second Model Safety Automatic [meaning automatic ejection of empties when the gun is opened] large frame. They were made from 1895-1908 and the "T" serial dates that gun to 1907-1908. Iver Johnson began to warrant their guns for smokeless powder the following year, so your gun dates to the so-called "black powder" era.

Firing modern ammunition will bot "blow up" the gun (assuming it is in good condition) but will ultimately shake it loose and damage it.

The serial number you give apparently combines the serial and an assembly number; I think the true serial is T18286, which would make sense.

Value, as you seem to realize, is pretty low, even though the gun is in quite good condition considering its age; I would put it at $100-120 or so. Since those guns have fragile springs, most dealers won't buy them or take them in trade because they can't sell them with a warranty, and the profit is not enough to cover the cost of the paperwork.

Jim

coldspit47 · January 14, 2015, 11:01 PM

Awesome, thanks for the quick reply! Is there any way to get the finish restored? Or at least slow the aging process down? I don't mind breaking it down if it's simple (just broke down every gun in the house last week for a deep clean), but also don't want to tear it up. I've only gently brushed out the cylinder bores and oiled it up, but there's still plenty of "plaque" on there.

Most of the other guns I've had/dealt with were post 1970 and in good shape. It's been stored in its holster (an old German pancake style) for the past 30+ years, and has only been out briefly once or twice during that time. Is that a good storage method, or is there a better way?

Magnum Wheel Man · January 15, 2015, 07:24 AM

I would not store it in the holster... that's a potential for finish disaster...

they can be refinished, but the cost of refinishing ends up more than the gun is worth ( in dollar value ) it's possible it may be worth refinishing ( for sentimental value )... don't cheap out & use the cheapest refinisher...

I collect these type of guns, as they were cheaper to collect & I find early CCW type guns interesting... I bought one on line, that I was either mislead, or the previous owner was, as it had been re-nickeled & the insides were all gritty feeling, the parts that were case colored had been nickeled & the gun was too shiny ( it may have been chromed instead of nickeled )... on more collectable guns, refinishing is often discouraged, but if it has sentimental value, & you understand it's not going to be worth the extra cost of refinishing as far as dollar value, & you use a high quality re-finisher, I see no reason not to, with guns as common as these...

I shoot all mine, & do so with smokeless powder handloads... ( I use mild loads of Trailboss ) & have a revolver test load that I've determined is safe in any properly timed revolver, that uses a light charge of Trailboss & a soft lead round ball...

a couple of my 32's... ( few 22's mixed in ) don't know if you can tell from this picture, but the refinished gun is 4th down on the right, & it's easy to tell, as the parts not normally nickeled at the factory, are now nickeled ( trigger, trigger guard, & hammer ) if you are thinking about refinishing, I'd suggest having these parts re-case colored, or blued, as most were at the factory...

James K · January 15, 2015, 10:27 AM

Those guns fall into the category of "easy to take apart; hard to put back together." Unless you are familiar with those old timers and know the tricks, I strongly suggest you clean it with a spray can and not tear it down beyond removing the cylinder and cleaning the chambers and barrel.

Jim

coldspit47 · January 15, 2015, 02:12 PM

Magnum Wheel Man, what's the preferred storage method, if not in a holster in the cabinet? I see in your picture you have a pistol rack, is that easier on the finish?

I removed the cylinder today and got all the gunk I possibly could off of it. Re-lubed it, added a slight bit of oil to the overall finish and looks like it's in better shape than I originally thought - some of the parts actually have no finish wear and the bore has zero imperfections. I found the front assembly, too (that bolts the barrel and cylinder to the frame) has both serial number and production numbers (serial stamped above the cylinder, production stamped inside the hinge).

I don't see this really becoming a collector's item before I die, but somehow I don't really want to get rid of it, either. Might have it checked out by the local gunsmith and fire it, or I might just use it as a decorative/historical item. Can never have too many guns around :P

Magnum Wheel Man · January 15, 2015, 03:04 PM

the leather or foam from a protective case, or really any surface that could hold moisture from the air against the finish & could cause damage, corrosion & pitting...

I used to store on those plastic coated wire racks that fit on the top shelf in my storage lockers, before I built a walk in gun safe room... now the handguns are stored on plastic coated steel rods inserted into the barrels

many of my nickel guns have flaked & have spots "in the white" & as long as you keep them "oiled up" or "waxed" they still look pretty decent...

you could always do up a shadow box, get a vintage cartridge box, & perhaps a picture of your grandfather... as long as the gun is properly lubed & the shadow box is put together correctly, it should reasonably maintain the guns current condition, & remind you of your grandfather at the same time...

Clark · January 16, 2015, 12:06 AM

Mag wheel,
Thanks for posting that pic of a handgun display again. I still have not made one. I also want to make one for the guys I stay with when I hunt.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388288

James K · January 16, 2015, 02:16 PM

Many kinds of holsters can trap moisture and cause rusting of guns stored in them. Leather is worst, since the chemicals used in tanning leather are acidic and particularly destructive. A holster should be used only for (temporary) carry, not long term storage. Even if used daily (as by a police officer) the gun should be removed from the holster and oiled at the end of the day if it is to be kept rust free. The use of stainless (rust resistant) steel in firearms has lessened the need to prevent rust, but has not eliminated it; even stainless steel can rust or corrode under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

Jim

January 15, 2015, 07:24 AM	#4
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I would not store it in the holster... that's a potential for finish disaster... they can be refinished, but the cost of refinishing ends up more than the gun is worth ( in dollar value ) it's possible it may be worth refinishing ( for sentimental value )... don't cheap out & use the cheapest refinisher... I collect these type of guns, as they were cheaper to collect & I find early CCW type guns interesting... I bought one on line, that I was either mislead, or the previous owner was, as it had been re-nickeled & the insides were all gritty feeling, the parts that were case colored had been nickeled & the gun was too shiny ( it may have been chromed instead of nickeled )... on more collectable guns, refinishing is often discouraged, but if it has sentimental value, & you understand it's not going to be worth the extra cost of refinishing as far as dollar value, & you use a high quality re-finisher, I see no reason not to, with guns as common as these... I shoot all mine, & do so with smokeless powder handloads... ( I use mild loads of Trailboss ) & have a revolver test load that I've determined is safe in any properly timed revolver, that uses a light charge of Trailboss & a soft lead round ball... a couple of my 32's... ( few 22's mixed in ) don't know if you can tell from this picture, but the refinished gun is 4th down on the right, & it's easy to tell, as the parts not normally nickeled at the factory, are now nickeled ( trigger, trigger guard, & hammer ) if you are thinking about refinishing, I'd suggest having these parts re-case colored, or blued, as most were at the factory... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; January 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM.

January 15, 2015, 03:04 PM	#7
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	the leather or foam from a protective case, or really any surface that could hold moisture from the air against the finish & could cause damage, corrosion & pitting... I used to store on those plastic coated wire racks that fit on the top shelf in my storage lockers, before I built a walk in gun safe room... now the handguns are stored on plastic coated steel rods inserted into the barrels many of my nickel guns have flaked & have spots "in the white" & as long as you keep them "oiled up" or "waxed" they still look pretty decent... you could always do up a shadow box, get a vintage cartridge box, & perhaps a picture of your grandfather... as long as the gun is properly lubed & the shadow box is put together correctly, it should reasonably maintain the guns current condition, & remind you of your grandfather at the same time... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

January 16, 2015, 12:06 AM	#8
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Mag wheel, Thanks for posting that pic of a handgun display again. I still have not made one. I also want to make one for the guys I stay with when I hunt. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388288 __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

January 14, 2015, 04:12 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It is the Second Model Safety Automatic [meaning automatic ejection of empties when the gun is opened] large frame. They were made from 1895-1908 and the "T" serial dates that gun to 1907-1908. Iver Johnson began to warrant their guns for smokeless powder the following year, so your gun dates to the so-called "black powder" era. Firing modern ammunition will bot "blow up" the gun (assuming it is in good condition) but will ultimately shake it loose and damage it. The serial number you give apparently combines the serial and an assembly number; I think the true serial is T18286, which would make sense. Value, as you seem to realize, is pretty low, even though the gun is in quite good condition considering its age; I would put it at $100-120 or so. Since those guns have fragile springs, most dealers won't buy them or take them in trade because they can't sell them with a warranty, and the profit is not enough to cover the cost of the paperwork. Jim

January 14, 2015, 11:01 PM	#3
coldspit47 Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2015 Posts: 3	Awesome, thanks for the quick reply! Is there any way to get the finish restored? Or at least slow the aging process down? I don't mind breaking it down if it's simple (just broke down every gun in the house last week for a deep clean), but also don't want to tear it up. I've only gently brushed out the cylinder bores and oiled it up, but there's still plenty of "plaque" on there. Most of the other guns I've had/dealt with were post 1970 and in good shape. It's been stored in its holster (an old German pancake style) for the past 30+ years, and has only been out briefly once or twice during that time. Is that a good storage method, or is there a better way?

January 15, 2015, 10:27 AM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Those guns fall into the category of "easy to take apart; hard to put back together." Unless you are familiar with those old timers and know the tricks, I strongly suggest you clean it with a spray can and not tear it down beyond removing the cylinder and cleaning the chambers and barrel. Jim

January 15, 2015, 02:12 PM	#6
coldspit47 Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2015 Posts: 3	Magnum Wheel Man, what's the preferred storage method, if not in a holster in the cabinet? I see in your picture you have a pistol rack, is that easier on the finish? I removed the cylinder today and got all the gunk I possibly could off of it. Re-lubed it, added a slight bit of oil to the overall finish and looks like it's in better shape than I originally thought - some of the parts actually have no finish wear and the bore has zero imperfections. I found the front assembly, too (that bolts the barrel and cylinder to the frame) has both serial number and production numbers (serial stamped above the cylinder, production stamped inside the hinge). I don't see this really becoming a collector's item before I die, but somehow I don't really want to get rid of it, either. Might have it checked out by the local gunsmith and fire it, or I might just use it as a decorative/historical item. Can never have too many guns around :P

January 16, 2015, 02:16 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Many kinds of holsters can trap moisture and cause rusting of guns stored in them. Leather is worst, since the chemicals used in tanning leather are acidic and particularly destructive. A holster should be used only for (temporary) carry, not long term storage. Even if used daily (as by a police officer) the gun should be removed from the holster and oiled at the end of the day if it is to be kept rust free. The use of stainless (rust resistant) steel in firearms has lessened the need to prevent rust, but has not eliminated it; even stainless steel can rust or corrode under the right (or wrong) circumstances. Jim