New aquisition of Baby Dragoon

[r010159]

Here is my new aquisition, a cased 1848 Baby Dragoon, made in the first year of production during 1847, with an inscribed name of a Civil War soldier. Photos are from both sides of the pistol, and the cylinder scene. I edited the cylinder scene to cut through the bright light, but the scene itself is just as good in the photo as in real life. Honest. The barrel was replaced at the factory for some reason during the same year the pistol was manufactured. This is an early variant of the Baby Dragoon that just had the capping groove added, serial number 171. This variant did not have a roller bearing for the hammer to turn on, no grooves in the arbor, and completely circular cylinder stops. This is well before rectangular cylinder stops were used. The cylinder scene is the Texas Ranger Indian Fight scene. Clean with no signs of rust!

Here are the stats:

All matching SNs, 80% cylinder scene, 95% silver on the straps, 70% bluing on barrel, excellent mechanical condition, fine physical condition with a small mild abrasion on the cylinder, and a servicable safety pin. Bore is clean but with some minor pitting in a couple grooves. The back strap is inscribed "H. F. Bissel", who was a Sergeant from the State of Connecticut in the Civil War. Allot of documentation comes with the pistol about this soldier.

PS. Boy, these things are not cheap!

[Model12Win]

GORGEOUS!!! I LOVE those circular cylinder stops!!

Are you going to shoot it, or try to?

[r010159]

Thank you for your kind words! This variation of the Baby Dragoon is quite fragile. Also the iron is soft compared with later 1849 Pocket pistols. So I do not think I will fire it. But I have a late 1849 Pocket that I can fire. Even has silver on its straps. Fire in style. Thats what I say! LOL

BTW this took me allot of work to authenticate and verify it is all original from the factory. The detective work was exhilerating! Now I have some additional research to do on the provenance of this pistol.

Bob

PS It is interesting that grey patina shows up with a greenish cast in this and some photos of other Civil War pistols that I have seen on the net.

[4V50 Gary]

What name and regiment?

Have you contacted the National Archives for his records?

You may also want to see if the State Adjutant General has any records on him.

[Hawg]

Also the iron is soft compared with later 1849 Pocket pistols.

It's the same thing. They didn't change processes until they went to steel for the barrels and cylinders in 1860. The frame on that one is case hardened wrought iron just like every Colt from the Paterson up until 1886.

[r010159]

Didn't they use a better "grade" of iron over time? The grain pattern seems more dense on my later 1849 Pocket. At least that is my name for it.

Just for an example, I laid down the cylinder onto a table. It rolled just a bit. Over a short period of time, I laid down the cylinder several times. When I inspected it under high magnificatioon, I saw the kind of logitudinal abrasion marks that I would expect for soft metal. This was incredible, even though under normal magnification they would be all but unnoticeable. I now lay the cylinder down on a soft towel. Is this the quality of metal that is to be expected from hardened wrought iron? I cannot imagine what the barrel would be like, but it seems a much harder metal to me. I do not think this would happen to the cylinder from my 1849 Pocket. Perhaps the manufacturing process changed.

Bob

PS On my next post, I will give some information on the inscribed name, "H. F. Bissell". The "H" is for "Henry". He was from Waterbury, Connecticut.

[r010159]

OK. Here are Henry F. Bissell's stats. He was from Waterbury, CT, and enlisted on 8/20/1862 into "C" company, Connecticut 14th Infantry. He was transferred out on 7/13/1863. On 7/13/1863 he transferred into "F" company, Veteran Reserve Corps 3rd. He was discharged on 7/6/1865. He received one promotion to Sergeant on 2/9/1863. Source is Historical Data Systems, Inc. "Record of Service of Men during War of Rebellion".

I have not contacted the National Archives for his records. What kind of information can I obtain from their records? What is the State Adjutant General? It would be nice to see what happened to him after the War. Also obtaining a picture of him would be the coup d'état of my research efforts. Now THAT would add value to the antique gun. I would have it hanging there as the bidding takes place. LOL

As a side note, I need to place additional "meat" to the documentation making for the provenance. Since the barrel was replaced, this may make for some reservation to purchase on the part of the potential buyer. So I need more of a "WOW" factor in this equation, but something enturely truthful and provable to show. No fancy sales pitch, just the facts.

Thanks,

Bob

[Hawg]

Cylinders and barrels were not hardened.

I have not contacted the National Archives for his records. What kind of information can I obtain from their records?

You will get information that was hand scribed from the original muster rolls in 1934. Actually if I'm not mistaken you will get copies of those same muster cards they scribed the information on. They will give his age, rank, company, regiment and any pertinent information such as whether he was sick, promoted, confined to quarters or absent without leave, just whatever was going on with him that could be written in a couple of sentences.

[r010159]

Thanks. I have been researching US Census records. The military records will be my next stop.

Bob

[bedbugbilly]

Bob - that's a beautiful outfit! Not cheap I'm are but you have it all - flask, nipple wrench, flask, etc.

Is there any chance you could post some photos of the case itself? Overall dimensions? From what I'm seeing, it appears that the items "sit in" to a profiled bottom - rather than dividers as often seen on larger cased sets (i.e. 1851 Navy, 1860 Army)? One of the bottom of the inside without the items in it to show how it is set up?

You can certainly be proud of that one! What a piece of history!

Thanks!

[kilimanjaro]

Now you need to trace down descendants and local museums and collectors of period photos to see if a photo of this soldier exists. Many soldiers sat for photographs before deployment and sent them home, camps had local photographers plying their trade.

Now if you find a photo, of him holding his revolver, that's provenance.

[Hawg]

Now if you find a photo, of him holding his revolver, that's provenance.

You would have to be able to tell it was the same one. Collectors don't play the maybe game.

[r010159]

Here are the photos of the box. The dimensions of the box are 10 3/4" x 6 1/2". One description called it a "Patterson-style casket" case. The original owner wanted allot of money for this, but I negotiated him down by over 30%, which this percentage saved turned out to be over several thousand dollars. I have already placed a deposit on a 1849 Pocket that has most of its original finish. So much for a vacation this year. But I am having a very good time of it right now!

PS: What is interesting is that I have not found a Baby Dragoon that had a fair amount of bluing on its cylinder, besides being on its barrel. I do not know why this is turning out to be the case. So far all of the cylinders show basically what some call a grey "patina"

Note: The links were broken in my first post somehow. Thank you photobucket! I am displaying them here again. My apologies.

[r010159]

As a Coda to this discussion, I would like to get opinions on what is the condition of the revolver. I will give a brief description:

1. All matching SNs. No SN on arbor, but normal for a SN of 171.
2. Physically 100% complete including a safety pin and 95% of silver on the trigger guard and straps.
3. At least an 80% cylinder scene
4. At least 60% tone of black with 85% coverage. Grey "patina" on cylinder.
5. Completely circular cylinder stops, a minor early variant.

It is 100% authentic. I think this qualifies as one in NRA "Fine" condition at the higher end of the scale. However, there is one potential pitfall. The barrel was factory replaced with a barrel made approximately late that same year. I do not know if this will have any bearing on value. Also there are a couple dents on the grip. There is a small amount of damage with the silver on the butt of the pistol.

So what do you guys think? Am I being a bit optimistic? Probably. But once I determine its condition, then I can work toward a value. Specifically, how much do you think the replacement barrel has decreased the value of the firearm?

Here are some additional photos. These have been Photoshopped to show the details of the address stamp and the cylinder scene. Just a filter and contrast adjustment. Please refer to the previous post for the other photos.





Bob

[Bill Akins]

r010159 wrote: I laid down the cylinder onto a table. It rolled just a bit. Over a short period of time, I laid down the cylinder several times. When I inspected it under high magnification, I saw the kind of longitudinal abrasion marks that I would expect for soft metal.

Those marks are also on original Colt Walker cylinders and may be on others too. It is one way appraisers are able to determine if the gun is authentic or a fake. The longitudinal marks on the cylinder were caused by the NOT engraved, but roll pressed cylinder scene. Modern repro fakes passing themselves off as originals don't have those longitudinal marks since their cylinder scenes are not roll pressed as the originals were. As you found out, you can only see them under magnification.



.

[r010159]

Incredible! Thank you so much. This is important to know.

Bob

PS Now you have me examining every minutiae on each Colt cylinder that I own. LOL

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you for posting th photos and information on the case - greatly appreciated! The case itself is an interesting part of the whole outfit and glad you were able to get it! That's probably one of the finest Baby Dragoons I've seen in over 50 years . . . . you can be very proud of that acquisition!

[r010159]

Thank you! BTW When I show it to my daughter, she looks at it for a moment, and then goes back to watching her television show. I tell her that she will be inheriting it along with the rest of my collection when I go to the Great Beyond. LOL She is not amused. Oh well!

Bob

[Obi1gr]

just stumbled across this posting, did a little digging, and was wondering if this was your gun? Figured I'd double check before sending any money to the guy

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13958031/

[r010159]

That looks to be mine that I have in my posession right now. LOL I will have to check this out. I wonder what its SN is?

Update: I have checked with original owner. It is a scam! I have the revolver in my possession right now. It is the same one that was sold to me. The seller is using the same photos that the original owner used when he sold the gun to me. Simply amazing! Slimeball amok!

Bob

[Obi1gr]

figured there was something fishy. anyway, i've alerted the site about it.

[r010159]

I have alerted the website owners. This should be interesting. LOL

Obi1gr: Thanks for the heads up. Now the fun begins.

Bob

[4V50 Gary]

Good work guys.

[Bishop Creek]

The fake auction is still up!

[r010159]

I sent the complaint to the wrong email address. I have resent it to the correct address this time. This is not a dispute with a seller. Its is a complaint about breaking the rules.

Bob